CCW permit holder killed with own handgun

[Ringolevio]

Apres cela, le deluge

BeerSleeper:

If it's CC, nobody knows it's there unless you attempt to draw. It can't be snatched if its presence is unknown.

An OC right out there for all to see. Maybe it's a deterrent, and thugs will just go elsewhere, or maybe the thug thinks, "I can snatch that."

I'm sure all the vociferous open-carry advocates here are saying
A) "You can't use this to condemn OC because we don't know if the victim was OC'ing", and
B) "The victim couldn't possibly have been carrying openly, because we know for a fact that OC is a deterrent that makes criminals quake in their boots!"

I certainly don't expect this to put an end to all the convoluted rationalizations for OC by guys who (consciously or subconciously) just can't get enough of the attention that comes from strutting around with a gun on their hip, and who, in defiance of all logic and commonsense (not to mention any understanding of thug mentality) will continue to try to justify it.

 

[JLately]

You shouldn't OC unless you have a good (level 2 or 3 retention) holster. If it was CC, who knows what really happened? Two people lost their lives thats day.

It is important that we don't forget the real point here. A lawful citizen lost his life because he stopped at a random gas station. My thoughts are with his family.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I certainly don't expect this to put an end to all the convoluted rationalizations for OC by guys who (consciously or subconciously) just can't get enough of the attention that comes from strutting around with a gun on their hip, and who, in defiance of all logic and commonsense (not to mention any understanding of thug mentality) will continue to try to justify it.

Why do you carry a concealed gun? Does that guarantee that you will successfully defend yourself against a criminal attack? Or, does it simply increase your chances of survival?

 

[george29]

[sarcasm]The article must be wrong. I've read repeatedly on the internet that this could never happen because crooks never attack people who have handguns visible on their persons.[/sarcasm]

Just a few days ago I had a quick argument here with someone that advocated that OC is the best. I told him I didn't want to open that can of worms (it would have hijacked the thread) but I don't know why people seem to think that OCing is somehow going to magically command respect. All one needs to do is watch Gangland on History Channel (I think it's History Channel) to understand that these young gangbangers are the Zombies we fear, they have unused brain cells (if their brains were cars it would be a car that a little old lady from Pasadena drove it to the grocery and back), no normal human emotion, they live for the glory of the moment and they fear nothing. Their friends are all in Prison or a grave. Some of these scum started out in Elementary School. They know the system better than the people that run the system. Too bad. I hope that the victim didn't get internet advice on how good OCing is!

 

[Neverwinter]

Why do you carry a concealed gun? Does that guarantee that you will successfully defend yourself against a criminal attack? Or, does it simply increase your chances of survival?

There is nothing that will guarantee that you will successfully defend yourself against all criminal attacks, only things that will increase your chances of survival.

As this unfortunate man discovered, the open carrying decreased his chances of survival.

 

[JohnKSa]

Sarcasm or not, I've never read that on the internet. What I have read is people who claim it will always happen to every person who open carries...

Nearly every OC thread will have at least one person challenge anyone who disputes the "tacticality" of OC to come up with "one, just one" instance of someone who's OC'ing and had their gun stolen from them or who was attacked while OC'ing.

It's not a straight out claim it's never happened or could never happen, but that's the gist of it.

And by the way, find me "one, just one" instance where someone says "it will always happen to every person who open carries..."

The point is that it can happen, that it does happen. It's certainly not common for two reasons. 1. There aren't many people who OC in situations where gun grabs are remotely likely. 2. Not many people who OC even in places where gun grabs could happen have (or will have) their gun grabbed.

Of course, there aren't many people who will ever need to shoot someone in self-defense but many of us carry guns even though it's not likely we'll need them. Some of us even carry spare magazines even though it's less likely we would need to reload than it is that we would ever need to shoot in the first place. We feel it's reasonable to prepare, NOT because of the likelihood of an incident, but rather because of the possible consequences of not being prepared.

In the same vein, it's reasonable for a person who OCs to consider the possibility of a gun grab and possibly even to take steps to avoid it. i.e. A retention holster.

 

[IlikeSA]

While I feel bad for the guy's family, it goes without saying that any physical altercation we get into is a gunfight, simply because we do carry.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The point is that it can happen, that it does happen. It's certainly not common for two reasons. 1. There aren't many people who OC in situations where gun grabs are remotely likely. 2. Not many people who OC even in places where gun grabs could happen have (or will have) their gun grabbed.

Could it also possibly be, and this is actually directly related to your #1, that a criminal who is evaluating targets and sees a potential victim carrying a gun will simply wait two minutes for the person with the gun to leave, or go down the street one block, and choose one of the other 99% of the population who doesn't appear to have a gun because there is much less chance of the criminal getting shot or caught?

 

[Birch Knoll]

a criminal who is evaluating targets and sees a potential victim carrying a gun will simply wait two minutes for the person with the gun to leave, or go down the street one block, and choose one of the other 99% of the population who doesn't appear to have a gun

Sure, most of the time. But every now and then, you come across a crazy sucker who just sees you as a walking gun dispenser.

From your posts, I gather that you are an open carrier. Why do you choose to OC rather than CC?

 

[JR133]

It is sad that two people lost their life. Carrying a gun in plan view is asking for trouble. You make yourself a target to the bad guys when they see that weapon. I think you should carry that weapon concealed.

There are alot of people that think it can't happen to them because they carry a gun. The sad part is most of the people that carry concealed have very little training. They go to the range once or twice a year and shoot a few rounds and think that is good enough. Everybody should have to take a
tactical ccw class. One that teaches, moving and shooting, tactical reloads and shooting under stress. You also should have to pass a yearly Qual course.

I know everybody on this thread knows someone who fits the above discription and they make the rest of us look bad.

 

[towboat_er]

You also should have to pass a yearly Qual course.
I think not.

 

[JohnKSa]

Could it also possibly be, and this is actually directly related to your #1, that a criminal who is evaluating targets and sees a potential victim carrying a gun will simply wait two minutes for the person with the gun to leave, or go down the street one block, and choose one of the other 99% of the population who doesn't appear to have a gun because there is much less chance of the criminal getting shot or caught?

Certainly it could be. In fact, in my opinion, that's what would happen most of the time.

But not ALWAYS. Sometimes, as in this case, the criminal sees the gun, not as a deterrent, but as a bonus. Or, perhaps, as a minor obstacle--one that is easily dealt with, as it was in this case.

If it was CC, who knows what really happened?

I linked to an article in which a witness stated that the gun was "plainly visible". He was OC'ing whether he meant to or not.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

"Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles." -English Bob

"What does the forbearance of reptiles" mean?


.

 

[NavyLCDR]

From your posts, I gather that you are an open carrier. Why do you choose to OC rather than CC?

Concealed carry has zero chance of deterring a crime from being committed against the person with the gun. All that the person who carries a concealed gun has is the hope that they can draw their gun AFTER an attack has already begun and hope that they can counter attack effectively enough to win the situation.

The person who open carries has a chance to deter the crime from even beginning to happen to them. The criminal might see the gun and decide it just isn't worth it to attack that person because of the abundance of seemingly unarmed targets available.

People like to use the term "wild west" and "cowboy" when referring to open carriers. Funny, though, it is really the person who concealed carries who is relying on their "quick draw" skills to launch an effective counter attack. The open carrier is relying more upon the deterrent factor of the visible gun.

Will open carry deter every crime? No. It's just plain stupid to believe and say that it will. Will every concealed carrier have a chance to use their gun in self defense or be successful in defending themselves? No. It's equally stupid to believe and say they will.

A lot of the effectiveness of the deterrent value of the visible firearm also depends upon location and situation. It's up to the person carrying the gun to know where they are and know the prevalent type of criminal activity in their area to make an educatied decision whether the benefit of deterrence outweighs the risk of the visible handgun. In my particular area the type of senseless violent crime is extremely low, indicating that the deterrent value of the visible gun far outweighs the risk.

Research and history show that the majority of your typical criminal is looking for an easy target, quick strike and retreat, low chance of getting caught, and low chance of an effective defensive counter-attack. Attacking the person they know has a gun just doesn't fit any of those goals and criminals know this.

From page 12 of:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.

The facts are that my area is not a hotbed of gang activity or major crimes. The petty criminals that are in my area are more likely to avoid a person known to have a gun rather than being attracted to them. Why would I give up the high probability that my gun will deter a crime from being committed against me because of the very low probability my gun will get grabbed?

I don't have any problem if you believe that concealed carry is best for you. I will never say that open carry is best for everyone. But statements that open carry is always better and, equally, statements that concealed carry is always better are just a sign of prejudice created by an inability or unwillingness to honestly and intelligently evaluate real life facts, in my humble opinion.

 

[Ringolevio]

Ahem. My earlier post ("Apres cela, le deluge") seems to have been a pretty good predictor of the convoluted rationalizations we'd be hearing to justify OC.

NavyLCDR:

a criminal who is evaluating targets and sees a potential victim carrying a gun will simply wait two minutes for the person with the gun to leave, or go down the street one block, and choose one of the other 99% of the population who doesn't appear to have a gun

ttolhurst:

Sure, most of the time. But every now and then, you come across a crazy sucker who just sees you as a walking gun dispenser.

"ttolhurst" obviously has a grasp of thug mentality that "NavyLCDR" clearly lacks.

ttolhurst:

From your posts, I gather that you are an open carrier. Why do you choose to OC rather than CC?

I can answer that. Such folks have something to prove. The irony is that, while it may be subconscious in the OCer's case, it's very clear to the thug, who quite consciously also has something to prove and views the OCer as an overt challenge/affront.

 

[AABEN]

You shouldn't OC unless you have a good (level 2 or 3 retention) holster. If it was CC, who knows what really happened? Two people lost their lives thats day.

It is important that we don't forget the real point here. A lawful citizen lost his life because he stopped at a random gas station. My thoughts are with his family.

All state police in TX is to use the holster the man is talking about. That is what a state police man told me.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I can answer that. Such folks have something to prove.

A shining example of my statement:
"But statements that open carry is always better and, equally, statements that concealed carry is always better are just a sign of prejudice created by an inability or unwillingness to honestly and intelligently evaluate real life facts"

In this case, probably an inability to intelligently evaluate real life facts.

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/07/05/tactical-scenario-robbery-gone-bad/

 

[General Geoff]

The irony is that, while it may be subconscious in the OCer's case, it's very clear to the thug, who quite consciously also has something to prove and views the OCer as an overt challenge/affront.

It's a pretty bold move on any thug's part to just walk up and attempt to disarm anyone who is openly carrying a gun. Not saying it doesn't happen (as the OP's linked article demonstrates), but it does put the attacker at a pretty severe disadvantage unless he decides to shoot the open carrier from a distance, before being discovered/observed by the open carrier.

Then again, if the open carrier isn't exercising situational awareness, he may as well have a $500+ pocket watch on his side.

 

[K-Rod]

Navy has always been an advocate of OCing. Nobody is going to change his mind or reasoning for that. He's based his reason's on the facts he's investigated & though my opinion is to CC because of my beliefs, I can appreciate SOME of the points he's made. That being said, Navy, you have to admit that there are cases of which Ringo has mentioned. There are those "Types" of OC'er that walk around puffy chested strutting & make a point that everyone can see his gun like he's a Billy badass. I'm not accusing or even suggesting Navy is that type. I've a lot of his threads & comments & he doesn't strike me as being that type.

Unfortunately though, two people lost their lives. What baffles me the most is why the hell did this guy chase an armed punk without being armed himself??? The punk already showed he make bad decisions by taking the weapon, what reasons does the punk have not to use it? There's many valuable lessons that can be learned here weather a person chooses to OC or CC. I think we should focus on those lessons & not have a debate on what people feel is the right or wrong way to carry.

 

[12131]

What baffles me the most is why the hell did this guy chase an armed punk without being armed himself???

Spontaneously reacting without thinking cost him his life, sadly.
Or, maybe he was thinking, who knows.

 

[Zoogster]

Bad things happen, nobody can train to eliminate them.
Situational awareness can reduce them.


Open carry discourages most criminals, concealed carry discourages very few. Concealed carry gives someone the element of surprise.
Though of course if common it is not a far stretch for criminals to hold someone at gunpoint and pat them down to see if they are concealed carrying in common locations, police have done it many times to those same criminals so they don't need to think too hard for the idea if they think armed victims are likely.
The rarity of concealed carry by victims is likely why you don't see that as a more typical criminal action. Even in the states that issue the most, it is only a small percentage of citizens that get a concealed carry license, and the majority that have such a license don't routinely carry, rather they get them for more freedom to purchase, transport, and carry when they wish to (at least that is what statistics say.) This means very few people in society are routinely carrying, just a percentage of those that have a license to do so.


A gun gives someone more options, with it comes some more risks.
A bare handed physical attack by a 14 year old does not legally warrant lethal force in most states against most victims.
Unless someone is very elderly or has serious physical limitations, or this is some monster of a 14 year old, there is no disparity of force, the adult is typically more capable than the 14 year old in the eyes of a jury.
This leaves someone unable to use their gun to defend, but leaves the gun an available target of the criminal.
Police deal with this risk all the time, grappling with suspects that don't warrant lethal force, but who can try to take their gun and use it against them. They train to do so, and they have more options of force, and carry a wider variety with them, and fewer criminals are willing to take on police compared to regular citizens. Yet they still are killed with their weapons.


It is sad and a reminder to have situational awareness, guns are not magic talismans and do not insure success in any confrontation. They merely provide an option that when lacking leaves someone at the mercy of criminals who are armed.

 

[1911Tuner]

This is the reason that I started a thread about weapon retention.

This is the (main) reason that I don't open carry. Not ever. Not even at home.

Sarcasm or not, I've never read that on the internet. What I have read is people who claim it will always happen to every person who open carries.

Statistically, it doesn't happen often. Individually...it only has to happen once.

If he knows it's there, there's a very good chance that he can relieve you of it. There are a few who even look at it as a challenge. If he doesn't know it's there, he doesn't know it's there.

 

[Birch Knoll]

I don't have any problem if you believe that concealed carry is best for you. I will never say that open carry is best for everyone. But statements that open carry is always better and, equally, statements that concealed carry is always better are just a sign of prejudice created by an inability or unwillingness to honestly and intelligently evaluate real life facts, in my humble opinion.

Thanks for your perspective. Although OC is legal here in Maine, I'm much more comfortable with CC most of the time. Even though legal, OC is not common here, outside of hunting or shooting venues, and it tends to render one an object of attention and possible alarm, which I'm really not seeking. Undoubtedly, this would be less so if OC was more common. I guess it's a bit of a bootstrapping problem.

 

[lemaymiami]

Any armed citizen needs to think about what they're really committing themselves to, the day they get their permit to carry (whether concealed or not). The implications are rarely considered by most, in my opinion. Since I'm a retired cop and was involved in training for a few years (in service, field training, every aspect on a 100 man department, including selecting and sending young'uns to the Academy) I did my best to stay on top of the various issues - particularly weapons related stuff.

The hard truth is that more than a third of all officers killed each year are killed with their own guns. It was that way for the 22 years I was on the job and probably hasn't changed much. Granted, an officer's exposure to genuine bad guys, as well as just plain crazies, is much higher than anyone elses.... but the point is that if you're going to carry you're very smart to find and attend weapons retention training. I think it's as important as training to use a weapon - but is an item that most in the civilian world never consider. Weapons retention only starts with good holster selection. It's the tactics you employ day to day that will help you come home at the end of the day. Remember there's a particular breed of bad actor that never carries a gun - he/she is planning on taking yours...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If it's CC, nobody knows it's there unless you attempt to draw. It can't be snatched if its presence is unknown.

Actually, CCW guns sometimes get to be known through contact, such as during a non-lethal force struggle that then turns into a struggle over lethal force.