change of mind from 9mm to .45acp

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Sounds like a pretty good justification to buy another gun to me (as if I needed a good justification). ;)

Sounds like a good justification to buy some more training course time to me (as if I needed to justify more training course time). :D

Glad your cousin walked away unscathed (literally). I bet a lot of Rwandans wished they'd had a 9mm when facing someone weilding a machete. Or even a good .22lr.

Thank your cousin for his service and buy him a box or two of .45 practice and good carry SD rounds.

"Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." Oliver Wendell Holmes (Brown v. United States)
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My only concern with short barrels and .45's is the associated drop in velocity in relationship to expansion of hollow-points... having said that, a .45" hole will still be larger than .355" and 185 - 230 gr. will outweigh 115 - 147... and the CS45 looks like a fun little handful.
 
Shot placement

I agree u should practice, practice, practice. I would like to hear back from all the guys that preach shot placement. It's very easy to hit the 10 ring when u walk up on a firing line in a controled area. Next time u go to the range try running in place for at least 2 min, then try hitting the X. For those of u who do combat shooting or who have had to fire at another human u know what i'm talking about. For those who have'nt, try it. Some guys it will take multi hits to go down, it does'nt matter what u use. A police officer put 3 00 buck in a guys chest at 15ft at the hospital he stood up on the bed pulled out the ivs.....6 mo later he excaped. A fireman friend of mine was working on a guy who had 8 357 mag rounds center mass. He sat up and asked what was going on. Point is u never know what it will take. If it's not your time it's not your time. FYI, I think the 9mm is a good round, like the 45acp or 10mm better. Surjimmy
 
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I like the .45 ACP 'cause it's an all American caliber
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I heard a theory once that 9mm isn't as popular here as others because it's a metric name. I wonder if it's true!?
 
waynedm said:
I heard a theory once that 9mm isn't as popular here as others because it's a metric name. I wonder if it's true!?
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you're on to something. i've relatives in the south who disregard it as a "dirty european" round.

to each their own.

regardless of caliber, i think f.b.i. tactics to be the best course of action: "shoot 'em to the ground."
 
Having seen the humble .22LR instantly drop large game repeatedly and reliably, I believe in placement above all else, but with penetration capability- through clothes, bone, flesh- to the CNS as the next most important trait. Cross section, energies, velocity, capacity, density, expansion, etc- to me- are only means to the above ends (I want to shoot the round better and I want reliable penetration).

I don't believe the "energy transfer" of a round is any more relevant than the energy being transfered to my hand during recoil. To me, that's not what stops. It's strictly damage to the CNS, exsanguination of hit vitals, or psychological stops (they're physiologically capable of continuing to fight but don't). Caliber matters little the last case and is incidental in the first (except in achieving penetration)... may play a minor role in the second (how the larger calibers provide the slightest fraction more cross-section to clip vitals with in exchange for the shootability that lets you aim for the vitals in the first place!).

Other people are going to disagree, certainly, but precision followed by penetration wins in my book.
 

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I wouldn't be so hasty to switch calibers on the weight of a single
anecdotal story, the details of which are quite unclear and especially one
which could be greatly influenced by a vast number of variables.

9mm Luger is a perfectly acceptable caliber. Instead of instantly trading his
9mm for a .45, perhaps your cousin should work on his marksmanship and
carry appropriate loads, or carry a shotgun when he goes on a call.

Or a plasma rifle in the 40 megawatt range. Or just mount a .50 cal turret on
the roof of his cruiser.

:eek:
 
It is a fairly easy thing to do to look at the shot for shot performance-by-the-numbers of 9mm/.357sig/.40/.45 and see that they are so close that the differences are all but inconsequential. All four, with good loadings, slightly exceed the FBI's desired penetration numbers, and all expand to within 1/10th of an inch difference at most. Very very close in terms of ballistic performance.

Factors, in order, that will help ensure safety:

1) Mindset and situational awareness
2) Mindset and situational awareness
3) Mindset and situational awareness
4) Mastery of the fundamentals of good shooting/good, ongoing training and practice
5) Good, reliable gear that works for that particular shooter, and that that shooter is very, very familiar with, and can deploy instantly every time.
6) A handgun that the shooter is very familiar with, fits that shooter ergonomically, is reliable, and which has a manual of arms that the shooter is familiar with.
7) Caliber.
 
These guys are all pretty much correct. LEarn to shoot accurately, consistently, and under adverse conditions, with your strong and weak hand.

BUT, whether or not you believe in kinetic energy transferrence being a factor, the .45 has at least a bit of an edge. Being larger in diameter, it will cause more cm3 of cavity trauma. This increases the odds of it hitting something vital as it goes through.

I haven't carried a 9mm in many years, but if I did, I would load it with 147 gr jhp ammo. (In all honesty, I have found myself looking at a Para-ord hawg-9 lately.) I kind of feel the same way about the 9 as I do about the 5.56. It is MORE appropriate in a smaller-framed weapon.

I am not at all thrilled about the idea of going to war with NATO 9mm loads.
 
You could just end up with both. Happened to me. Started a switch to .45 in the belief that it is a 'better' quick stop round. Got some assorted 9mm expanding rounds, etc. Now I have both to feed and care for.

Whited. I'm having trouble finding dealers in plasma rifles? Any help will be appreciated. seamus
 
I think the wanting to "trade up" to a larger caliber is common among officers after a shooting. By law enforcement standards (firearms training wise) four hits with a sidearm to stop a threat is not bad at all. Like several of you already said, a lot of people, many police officers included, don't have a realistic notion of what a handgun is capable of. I am guessing that the suspect would have needed four rounds regardless of whether he was shot with a 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP. Bottom line, if getting a .45ACP chambered sidearm makes the officer in question feel safer, then he needs to stick to the decision. From a pure performance standpoint, meaning of the sidearm, it probably is not going to make a difference.
 
I recently switched from 9mm to .45 in large part because the latter is more forgiving of load selection {uncertain in my area} and also since I'm just that much more confident in the caliber.
 
glassman My cousin is a policeman who was sent out on a 'disturbance' call. Long story short..he was attacked by a man weilding a machette. I'm told it took 4 shots from his 9mm to "insure his safety". He immediately went out and bought a 1911 as his primary.
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Since when does a police department allow it's members to just go out and change their side arm willy nilly?

Smells fishy to me.
I've never know of a single department to allow it's officers to choose what ever they wanted....
*sniff* *sniff*
 
I don't have the ability to carry concealed. I live in the PRK, but my first choice would be a handgun in .45acp. I understand the balistics of both and shot placement is key. I would still take the larger round over the 9mm.
 
Since when does a police department allow it's members to just go out and change their side arm willy nilly?

Smells fishy to me.
I've never know of a single department to allow it's officers to choose what ever they wanted....
*sniff* *sniff*
__________________
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That is not uncommon. I worked for one department that let the officer choose anything as long as it was 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP. The department I retired from allowed 9mm or .45ACP and had a list of brands to choose from.

Around my part of the country it seems more common than having one issued make, model and caliber.
 
cs45

Owned one; couldn't hit with it. Might have been me; fortunate to trade for Colt CCO.

Course, if you meant 1911sc...
I think you'd have a ton of excited replies (as elsewhere).

Advantage of a 9 over a .45; more controllable probably=more hits and better shot placement...

"Well, maybe I don't believe it either..."
Sean Connery: The Wind and the Lion
 
RTFM said:
Since when does a police department allow it's members to just go out and change their side arm willy nilly?
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One of our local Sheriff's departments says you can carry whatever as long as it's 9mm or bigger. That's what my buddy that's a deputy said at any rate, he carries .45
 
I recently read an article that stated that the military was in the process of searching for a .45 auto loader. Maybe they wised up? I have a Browning High Power 9mm, I love the gun and 9mm is fun and inexpensive to shoot, but I carry a .45
 
Obviously the .45 is going to put a somewhat bigger hole in someone. What I don't understand is why whenever someone doesn't drop immediately from a single 9mm shot, it's always the caliber's fault. What, do you expect someone to instantly explode when you hit them with a .45?

What happens when someone doesn't go down in one shot from a .45? That's when you start hearing crazy things like the guy was a psycho who was able to function for 2 min. without a heart and a shotgun to the face wouldn't have been any more effective.

Another thing that confuses me that people say 9mm is weak, but they think the 357 Magnum is great. Your better 9mm rounds like DPX and a lot of +P+ ammo seems pretty similar to 357 ballistics to me.

If you're in the military and stuck using weak ammo, that's totally different. If we were still stuck with 10-round clips, that'd be a good reason to go with something big, too. As it is, I think there are a lot of valid choices out there for defense.

I just think a lot of popular ideas about calibers are strange. So many people think .45 is the only reasonable thing for shooting people, but something a little meaner like a 10mm or a 44 is ridiculous and suitable for hunting only, and something a little smaller like a 9mm is nearly useless.

Cops got by just fine for a very long time with the 38 special, and modern 9mm ammo is like 38 special on steroids.
 
Anyone here HUNT? How many of you have shot a Deer, Hog, Elk, etc..... and had to track it even with a Heart/Lung shot? I have...and when i cleaned it i found the very little of the heart remained. I used a 30.30 and the shot was at 20 yards. POINT IS......even with great shot placement, the BG can still advance.. Use what you feel comfortable with... GOOD LUCK
 
universal

The article was in G&A Combat Arms. It says the military requested a single stack .45 to replace the M9. HK has an offering as well as FN. The contract was written so the 1911 could not compete.
 
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