Cheapest Reliable 7.62x51 EBR? + Some questions...

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Kadic....so does that mean that the Saiga 308 only has 10 compliance parts, and in order to use a 20 round mag I'd have to replace something else with a compliance part?


Edit: Never mind. Just did some research at the Saiga forums. Looks like I would have to buy compliance parts if I wished to use 20 round magazine.....


Well, that makes it really not worth it. way too much of a hassle right now, and it brings the cost up to the point where a standard grade Springfield M1A isn't looking too bad.
 
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Saiga; accurate , cheap, reliable, eats everything. what more could you ask for?

As noted cheap mags...like say in the $1-$5 range (like the G3 mags). :rolleyes:

FYI, Saiga conversion can EASILY be done in the $150 rang or less.
 
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Where are you finding Saiga 308 mags for $5? The cheapest I could find for the .308 mags is $35, and that's for an eight round magazine, rather than a twenty rounder.
 
Anyone recall seeing saiga's converted to use the HK mags?

I paid like $300 for my cetme a couple of years ago, mags are still about 2 bucks each. (i like lots o' mags)
 
Geoff.....if you put a 20 round mag on a Saiga, it apparently become a device that is "no longer suitable for sporting purposes" under 922(r), and hence getting compliance parts is apparently a good idea in order to CYA.

At least, that's what I picked up on the Saiga forums. They had several threads over there discussing the necessity of doing so.
 
Geoff.....if you put a 20 round mag on a Saiga, it apparently become a device that is "no longer suitable for sporting purposes" under 922(r), and hence getting compliance parts is apparently a good idea in order to CYA.

What do they define as "sporting purposes"? Does it specify a magazine capacity? From what I understand, Saiga does not make a 20 round magazine for the .308 version, and as such any "sporting purposes" clause that is subject to arbitrary interpretation cannot be violated by adding a 20rd mag that's not been summarily judged by those who call the shots..
 
Geof....from the ATF website: http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/typscope.pdf

SCOPE OF "SPORTING PURPOSES"

As in the 1989 study, we had to determine the scope of "sporting purposes" as used in section 925(d)(3). Looking to the statute, its legislative history, the work of the Firearms Evaluation Panel (see exhibit 6), and prior ATF interpretations, we determined sporting purposes should be given a narrow reading, incorporating only the traditional sports of hunting and organized competitive target shooting (rather than a broader interpretation
that could include virtually any lawful activity or competition.)

In terms of the statute itself, the structure of the importation provisions suggests a somewhat narrow interpretation. Firearms are prohibited from importation (section 922(l)), with four specific exceptions (section 925(d)). A broad interpretation permitting a firearm to be imported because someone may wish to use it in some lawful shooting activity would render the general prohibition of section 922(l) meaningless.

Similarly, as discussed in the "Background" section, the legislative history of the GCA indicates that the term sporting purposes narrowly refers to the traditional sports of hunting and organized competitive target shooting. There is nothing in the history to indicate that it was intended to recognize every conceivable type of activity or competition that might employ a firearm.

In addition, the FEP specifically addressed the informal shooting activity of "plinking" (shooting at randomly selected targets such as bottles and cans) and determined that it was not a legitimate sporting purpose under the statute. The panel found that, "while many persons participate in this type of activity and much ammunition was expended in such endeavors, it was primarily a pastime and could not be considered a sport for the purposes
of importation. . . ." (See exhibit 6.)

Finally, the 1989 report determined that the term sporting purposes should be given a narrow reading incorporating the traditional rifle sports of hunting and organized competitive target shooting. In addition, the report determined that the statute's reference to sporting purposes was intended to stand in contrast with military and law enforcement applications. This is consistent with ATF’s interpretation in the context of the Striker-12
shotgun and the USAS-12 shotgun. It is also supported by the court’s decision in Gilbert Equipment Co. v. Higgins.

We received some comments urging us to find "practical shooting" is a sport for the purposes of section 925(d)(3).48 Further, we received information showing that practical shooting is gaining in popularity in the United States and is governed by an organization that has sponsored national events since 1989. It also has an international organization.

While some may consider practical shooting a sport, by its very nature it is closer to police/combat-style competition and is not comparable to the more traditional types of sports, such as hunting and organized competitive target shooting. Therefore, we are not convinced that practical shooting does, in fact, constitute a sporting purpose under section 925(d)(3).49 However, even if we were to assume for the sake of argument that practical shooting is a sport for the purposes of the statute, we still would have to decide whether a
firearm that could be used in practical shooting meets the sporting purposes test. In other words, it still would need to be determined whether the firearm is of a type that is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to practical shooting and other sporting purposes.50 Moreover, the legislative history makes clear that the use of a military weapon in a practical shooting competition would not make that weapon sporting: “if a military weapon is used in a special sporting event, it does not become a sporting weapon. It is a military weapon used in a special sporting event.”51 While none of the LCMM rifles are military weapons, they still retain the military feature of the ability to accept a large capacity military magazine.

In other words, if you change it from its original sporting configuration, you have created something that is illegal to construct or import without the required US compliance parts. And according to the ATF, having high cap mags is enough to change its sporting purpose.

The thread I got that from, here was started by someone who argued that it wasn't so, but the general consensus seemed to be that it was so, and hence compliance parts were a good idea to CYA if you use high cap mags. At least, that's what I gathered from that thread.
 
922(r) is not unique to Saigas. You play that game with AKs and other imported rifles as well.

I think what throws a monkey-wrench in the Saiga situation is that you are working with a foreign receiver. Usually the receiver is also one of your US parts on things like Vectors and Arsenals.

922(r) isn't all that big of a deal once you get used to it and how to play the game.

It irratates me that there is some wood furnature on a foreign site that I wanted to put on one of my AKs that I can't, however.


I will echo that if you are cost-concerned, the Saiga conversion is fairly easy to do by your self. The 308 is considered the easiest Saiga conversion because you don't have to worry about putting in a feed ramp. Because I still didn't really have a lot of confidence in my ability, and because I wanted to get a rifle to finish hunting season when I was robbed, I went ahead and got a pre-converted one for $599. The conversion was excellent and the fit, finish, and fuction was perfect.


-- John
 
Regolith,

Glad you were able to find it. I knew that if I tried to explain it you'd just end up confused (which, now that I think of it, might be an indicator that I'd explained it to you correctly). Thankfully, you went to the Saiga forum, which I should have recommended if I'd had my head on straight. It's a heck of a resource!

Barrett
 
MisterPX said:
CETME, for $400ish
Mags for $1.20.
Good idea. I had forgotten about the CETME. I've never owned one, but I have a PTR-91, which is very similar. The PTR-91 is pricey ($900-1500), as is the HK-91 it is based on ($2500+). You can find good used CETME's for $400-500, though, and they are solid, reliable firearms. As MisterPX notes, magazines are dirt cheap -- the cheapest you'll find.
 
Seriously...?!? Brass is good enough to reload from with this? Sure allot cheaper than the Valmet buffer/deflectors ($50-$60 each) I can't believe no aftermarket manufacture has reproduced this part yet.
 
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Yes it works, no deep dent, just a scuff mark or a very shallow mark, depending on how many rounds you smack against the edge guard. We put close to 250 rounds through it and the guard is still intact.

My camera will not work in Macro mode to get a picture of it though.

I've suggested it a few times at the Saiga forum, people bought the $45 Valmet buffer instead.

I cannot reload the brass I shot however, it is old Lake City 5.56 reloads from HSM, (probably reloaded a few times and I'm not sure how it was stored, hot cold weather cycling??) the case necks or shoulder split.

The splitting though is not related to the Saiga, the cases did the same thing in a LMT M4 and in a Mini-14...
 
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