Need Suggestions for Quality 7.62 Rifle

[OilyPablo]

Throughout all this I keep thinking my 6.8SPC serves the purpose pretty darn well.

 

[grampajack]

Throughout all this I keep thinking my 6.8SPC serves the purpose pretty darn well.

There are few people who can outshoot a 223, and even fewer who can outshoot 6.8 or 6.5. When you get into ranges that require 308, we're talking about a level of skill, knowledge, and technical capability that less than 1% of shooters have. Without those skills, and the glass to go with them, a 308 is good for little more than laying down covering fire at 5(ish)-8 hundred yards and punching through light barriers.

 

[Whiskey11]

Coal Digger, you missed my point entirely. You implied that because "none" of the other .308 rifles passed our military's trials for use by SOCOM, that they were unproven range toys. Quite the opposite. The M14 continues to linger around for more than just the nostalgia surrounding it and the cost of replacing it. It's accurate, it's reliable, and the knowledge base is immense for it. The biggest issues surrounding it are weight and modularity. Modularity has been addressed but weight is hard to remove but not impossible.

AG Composites makes a carbon fiber stock that drops a full pound off the weight of the rifle vs the SAI synthetic stocks and reproduces the bedding of a NM rifle quite accurately. It's not cheap at $560, but it gives the OP what he is looking for (sub 8lb rifle, in this case it'd be 7.8lbs as either a standard M1A or a 18" Scout barreled M1A).

Anyway, my primary point is, that to meet the OP's goals, he is going to have to accept more weight than he currently wants to accept, or give up on something else in his goals (accuracy expectations would be next easiest) to make weight. If your intended use really requires a semi auto .308 then you will HAVE TO accept that you are giving up mobility to achieve that firepower. It will always weigh more than another platform will and his weight expectations and accuracy expectations are highly unrealistic for the caliber choice.

 

[kdunn]

This is probably the lightest 308 AR on the market right now. And I'm venturing to guess that it's also amongst the most expensive.

http://www.christensenarms.com/firearms/msr/ca-10-dmr

You could actually get pretty close to that building one yourself with a slim barrel and a lightweight handguard.

Are you absolutely certain you need a 308? What's the furthest you see yourself shooting, realistically? And are you willing to pay for the level of glass needed to go that far?

The reason I ask is you might be better of with something like 6.5 Grendel. You get some extra range but in a package that still fits into a small frame AR. You could easily build a sub 7 pound 6.5 that would shoot dime sized groups at 100 yards.

Realistically I don't think I'll ever be shooting past 500 yards. And definitely won't be hunting past 300 yards but will probably do quite a bit of shooting from 300.

So yes, I could probably meet all of my needs with something like a 6.5 Grendel...BUT... but I want the 7.62/308 Winchester for ammo availability. Most of my LGS's have 308 ammo of all kinds when I walk into any store. 6.5 grendel is another story

 

[kdunn]

There are few people who can outshoot a 223, and even fewer who can outshoot 6.8 or 6.5. When you get into ranges that require 308, we're talking about a level of skill, knowledge, and technical capability that less than 1% of shooters have. Without those skills, and the glass to go with them, a 308 is good for little more than laying down covering fire at 5(ish)-8 hundred yards and punching through light barriers.

I believe I have the knowledge and technical capability to make precision shots at long distances, but I know I need more time behind the trigger at these distances to claim that I have the skill for it.

And as far as glass goes, if I'm buying a $2500+ weapon (SCAR 17) I'm not going to skimp out on the glass.

 

[kdunn]

So after doing some more internet searching and reading everyone's great replies, I have decided on a SCAR 17. However, because my original budget was about $1500, and I want to buy some quality glass to put on it, it's going to be a while before I can make a move on buying one (that is if I could even find one in stock somewhere).

Here is my rationale for ruling out the M1A and custom builds:

M1A: I can probably pick one up for $1500-$1800. Awesome, in my original budget right? BUT to get it to meet the rest of my criteria I'm probably gonna be spending about another $1000 before it's over with. And then I should've just bought a SCAR in the first place

Custom build: I don't have any experience with the 308 round at this point and there too many variants for me to feel comfortable doing this and being confident I would meet my accuracy and reliability requirements when it's all said and done

So... that leaves me with the SCAR 17S. It's just under 8 pounds, its pretty close to my 1 MOA accuracy requirement (and sub-MOA at close ranges), it just doesn't make my budget. Well if that's the case I would rather just wait a little longer and met the rest of my requirements at a later date. This gun isn't something i NEED at this time. So if I need to reach out at a longer distance in the mean time I'll break out my old 30-06 Remington 700.

So onto the next order of business.... What kind of glass should I put on this hypothetical SCAR 17 of mine?

I've seen some people putting the Elcan's and ACOG 6x48's on theirs, but I'm worried that I need a higher magnification to be accurate at longer ranges. So would I want to look at the 5-20x50 Trijicon AccuPoints? or can I achieve my accuracy with something like a 6x48 ACOG? or something in between like the 2.5-12x42 Accupoint?

 

[grampajack]

I hear you on ammo availability. That's the biggest thing that 6.5 has going against it, perhaps the only thing in fact. But 308 isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, especially when we're talking about anything that's going to give you 1 MOA.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. To be completely honest, if 300 yards is where you want to be, then 77gr. 223 will absolutely put you there, and beyond. I can't speak to its terminal effect at its maximum effective range, but it will hit center mass at 600 yards. And according to the military, those heavier rounds have more than acceptable terminal effects at 200-400 yards.

As far as glass, I would think a 4-12x (or even a 2.5-10x) will squeeze all the juice out of 223, whereas you're going to want something stronger, and with more features, to take 308 to its maximum range. If I were planning on shooting out to 800, then I would want at least a 16x with turrets, parallax adjustment, and darn good tracking. Pretty much everything in that category is around 2k. Those scopes are also large and heavy, whereas a 2.5-10x even is light and compact. The lower magnification is also going to make the rifle useful at closer ranges, so you'll fulfill your distance requirement and get some versatility as a bonus.

I would give some serious thought to building an SPR/RECCE style AR15. It's going to easily put you at the range you want with more accuracy than you require, and still fall well within your price and weight requirements. If you do a BHW barrel in an Aero receiver with a KMR Alpha, then you'll easily hit the 1500 mark with enough left over for a nice trigger. Especially if you use an already existing lower from one of your other rifles. And depending on what profile you go with, you could come in at 7 lbs or less.

As far as reliability goes, a mid length AR with the right buffer system (especially the new A5) is stone cold reliable, regardless of what anyone says. Like I said before, the AR's single downside only becomes an issue after several hundred rounds, which is more ammo than most people would be willing to carry. The reliability issues you hear about only start to show up on ARs with carbine length gas systems and short barrels, like the M4, and that's simply because they extract too early. That's not a problem with mid and rifle length gas systems.

 

[kdunn]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. To be completely honest, if 300 yards is where you want to be, then 77gr. 223 will absolutely put you there, and beyond. I can't speak to its terminal effect at its maximum effective range, but it will hit center mass at 600 yards. And according to the military, those heavier rounds have more than acceptable terminal effects at 200-400 yards.

As far as glass, I would think a 4-12x (or even a 2.5-10x) will squeeze all the juice out of 223, whereas you're going to want something stronger, and with more features, to take 308 to its maximum range. If I were planning on shooting out to 800, then I would want at least a 16x with turrets, parallax adjustment, and darn good tracking. Pretty much everything in that category is around 2k. Those scopes are also large and heavy, whereas a 2.5-10x even is light and compact. The lower magnification is also going to make the rifle useful at closer ranges, so you'll fulfill your distance requirement and get some versatility as a bonus.

As far as devil's advocate goes, I have a Colt LE6920 that's one free float rail away from being just about everything you mention (accurate and effective with 77 gr at longer distances, reliable, 6.9 lbs before glass, etc.) but I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking game larger than coyotes at those kinds of distances, and I would like to be able to hunt deer with my hypothetical future SCAR 17.


For glass I'm thinking a 2.5-12x might be perfect for my applications. I do love the love 3.5x35 ACOG's though so I am tempted by the 6x48....

 

[grampajack]

As far as devil's advocate goes, I have a Colt LE6920 that's one free float rail away from being just about everything you mention (accurate and effective with 77 gr at longer distances, reliable, 6.9 lbs before glass, etc.) but I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking game larger than coyotes at those kinds of distances, and I would like to be able to hunt deer with my hypothetical future SCAR 17.


For glass I'm thinking a 2.5-12x might be perfect for my applications. I do love the love 3.5x35 ACOG's though so I am tempted by the 6x48....

I didn't realize deer hunting was in the equation. Would this be in a theoretical SHTF situation, or is this something you really plan on doing?

 

[MistWolf]

The advent of the reliable adjustable gas block eliminates the advantage the piston in gas block AR may have had over the direct gas AR and makes the direct gas AR one of the easiest weapon system to tune to run with a suppressor.

Modern suppressors no longer have a negative impact on precision

 

[agtman]

The advent of the reliable adjustable gas block eliminates the advantage the piston in gas block AR may have had over the direct gas AR and makes the direct gas AR one of the easiest weapon system to tune to run with a suppressor.

Agree.

Modern suppressors no longer have a negative impact on precision

This needs to be qualified. Suppressors can actually improve accuracy but much depends on how secure the mounting system is. Direct attach/thread-on cans (including those that employ locating collars, such as Allen Engineering (formerly OPS)), lock-up tight on the barrel. I've always had great accuracy with those cans mounted.

Q.D. cans can have issues maintaining accuracy if the particular mounting system allows the can to shift, wiggle, or wobble during firing. AAC's 51t ratchet mount for their QD cans is notorious for this (yes, I have one), unless you got lucky and the mount that came with the can (whether brake or FH) locked-up tight on the ratchet teeth out of the box. Some do, other don't.

For those that don't, you or your smith, to get rid of the wobble, will have to machine the face of the bevel just forward of the teeth on that particular mount to achieve a tight lock-up. I had my 'smith do that to the mount for my M42000 and it worked. With the wobble, the can turned a sub-MOA 18" SPR (shooting match ammo) into a 4 MOA disappointment. Eliminating the wobble brought it back to sub-MOA results and happy times.

That said, some maker's QD/fast attach systems do lock-up tight from the git-go. Increasingly those makers want their cans to satisfy the precision requirements of long-distance shooters. No point in having a QD can on a precision stick if it degrades the rifle's accuracy when attached.

 

[kdunn]

I didn't realize deer hunting was in the equation. Would this be in a theoretical SHTF situation, or is this something you really plan on doing?

Yes I stated I would like to hunt with it early on, but I didn't specify deer hunting. And no not just for SHTF, I would like to it retire my 30-06 for deer hunting and become my go-to rifle for whatever I need, including hunting.

 

[joem1945]

DSA FAL, or almost any AR10 will do what ever needs doing.

 

[Jackal]

This works well for around $1000. 8lbs empty as shown, can be cut down to 7lbs with lighter stock, rear sight and muzzle device. This will be hosting my Griffin Recce 7 when the stamp comes back.

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[kdunn]

This works well for around $1000. 8lbs empty as shown, can be cut down to 7lbs with lighter stock, rear sight and muzzle device. This will be hosting my Griffin Recce 7 when the stamp comes back.

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What is "this"? It's a 308?

Although I do pretty much have my mind made up on a SCAR 17 at this point

 

[Jackal]

What is "this"? It's a 308?

DPMS G2 AP4 .308. 4150, chrome lined, lightweight barrel. Its the size/weight of an AR15, launching a .308 payload. It made the AK's and heavy AR15's in my arsenal instantly obsolete, being lighter, more powerful.

 

[grampajack]

Yes I stated I would like to hunt with it early on, but I didn't specify deer hunting. And no not just for SHTF, I would like to it retire my 30-06 for deer hunting and become my go-to rifle for whatever I need, including hunting.

Well, sounds like you've made up your mind. I think we've chased every rabbit and kicked every dog, and it sounds like the SCAR has weathered the storm. Those poor deer won't stand a chance!

 

[kdunn]

Well, sounds like you've made up your mind. I think we've chased every rabbit and kicked every dog, and it sounds like the SCAR has weathered the storm. Those poor deer won't stand a chance!

I agree! I think for now the SCAR is best suited for my needs. But that's not to say I wouldn't build a 308 AR or buy and M1A later on down the road just for fun! [emoji1303]