Need Suggestions for Quality 7.62 Rifle
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Llama Bob
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Your light weight and piston operated requirements work against your accuracy requirement.
As a result I don't have anything to recommend. You might find yourself with that level of accuracy, but I don't see any way to guarantee it. If you were willing to go DI, you could look at the Larue PredatAR 7.62.
Llama Bob,
Why would being piston operating work against my accuracy requirement? Does the piston system negatively effect accuracy on its own?
adcoch1
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Looking at piston system guns in this price range has you looking at old technology. So its either heavy or less accurate due to lighter barrels, and those are more readily affected by the weight and recoil nature of piston systems. A 308 saiga is probably the only piston gun that can make weight, be reasonably accurate (at least for the first few shots), AND be affordable. The best option is probably the scar17, and the ar10 the best compromise. I have had a few fals, and some are very accurate while some aren't. And price absolutely DOES NOT guarantee accuracy. Same with the ptr91/hk91/CETME family. Some of the cheap ones can really shoot. If i had it to do over i would go ar10, and either a dpms or build a psa parts gun, but that is just what i would do...ymmv
Coal Dragger
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Kdunn,
Unfortunately no first hand knowledge, just the positive reports of a few guys I know who stayed in the Corps longer than me who were a lot more motivated than I was. They made it to a certain secret squirrel unit that issued the SCAR H (7.62), and they loved them. Not as much love for the SCAR L (5.56) though, aside from a bit better reliability when insanely dirty they didn't feel it offered any capabilities their M4's or MK18's didn't already fulfill. One thing that impressed one of them in particular was how accurate the SCAR H could be, not bolt gun accurate, but close enough to the M110 that they would often not bother with the M110 since the SCAR was a lot lighter and more durable.
For a long time the SCAR's biggest drawback, aside from being priced as if made of solid gold, was the trigger. Geissele now makes a SCAR trigger so that is solved, and last time I looked FN will give you a coupon for a Geissele trigger when you purchase a SCAR. Problem solved!
Llama Bob
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Most people who seem like they should know believe so. Some combination of the gas flow around the gas port and having additional moving mass while the bullet is in the barrel. I don't claim to understand the physics very well.
There are only 4 manufacturers that I'm aware of that I would bet better than even money an off-the-shelf gun would shoot sub-MOA with the appropriate FGMM ammo. Larue, GAP, LMT (Rock Creek barrels only) and Nemo (.308/6.5 Creedmoor mostly, not sure about magnums). That's not to say there aren't others, but those are the one's I'm aware of/trust.
I guess maybe a Fulton M14 too, and that's an op-rod gun so what do I know
kdun, if you want your semiauto to shoot inside 1 MOA (3 inches) at 300 yards all the time, you'll need to find one that'll average 2 inches (.67 MOA) or better. Unless its bolt face is squared up with the chamber axis, only new cases will probably be what you'll need to use. Reloaded cases from the US military teams never shot well in their semiauto match rifles because their bolt faces were never squared up.
For example, LaRue says none of their firearms can leave their facility unless it obtains accuracy of less than 1 MOA (1.047”) at 100 Yards and each firearm ships with a copy of a 3-round group obtained from that actual firearm. A single group fired with only 3 shots will be somewhere between near 3 times to 2/3rds its size. If their group shipped with the rifle is 3/4 inch, all the hundred yard groups of 3 shots will range from about 4/10ths to 2 inches. And they'll be 20 to 30 percent bigger at 300 yards. We don't know what accuracy with more than 3 shots will be. We don't know if they shoot 3-shot groups until one's under an inch, then ship that one with the rifle. All rifles will do that once in a while.
For example, LaRue says none of their firearms can leave their facility unless it obtains accuracy of less than 1 MOA (1.047”) at 100 Yards and each firearm ships with a copy of a 3-round group obtained from that actual firearm. A single group fired with only 3 shots will be somewhere between near 3 times to 2/3rds its size. If their group shipped with the rifle is 3/4 inch, all the hundred yard groups of 3 shots will range from about 4/10ths to 2 inches. And they'll be 20 to 30 percent bigger at 300 yards. We don't know what accuracy with more than 3 shots will be. We don't know if they shoot 3-shot groups until one's under an inch, then ship that one with the rifle. All rifles will do that once in a while.
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Coal Dragger
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The 3 round group is statistically insignificant, and should largely be ignored. Unless you want to shoot multiple 3 round groups for an average. Even better would be to fire multiple 5 round groups. Better still, and even more meaningful for data points would be to fire 10 round groups. I have started to evaluate semi-auto rifles with 10 round groups, and it is revealing. If you have a semi-auto barrel and ammo combo that will turn in an honest 10 shot group center to center under 1 MOA, that is one hell of a rifle or carbine. In firing multiple 10 round groups if my ammo and barrel can maintain 1.0-1.5 MOA I am ecstatic to be honest. Keep in mind I'm testing 5.56mm barrels here with NATO spec chambers and 1:7 twist that are chrome lined or salt bath nitrided.
For bolt guns I also plan to start evaluating precision using 10 round groups. You simply get enough data points to see what the combo will realistically and repeatabley do.
For example in testing 69gr SMK hand loads in my Colt M4A1 SOCOM II, my first 3 shots were well under 1/2" at 100 yards. Had I stopped there I would have convinced myself that I have a 1/2 MOA carbine, and then been really aggravated the next time I tried it and shot a group just under 1 MOA. The last 10 shot group with that load development went .92" center to center. More testing is needed, but I suspect it will be repeatable.
For bolt guns I also plan to start evaluating precision using 10 round groups. You simply get enough data points to see what the combo will realistically and repeatabley do.
For example in testing 69gr SMK hand loads in my Colt M4A1 SOCOM II, my first 3 shots were well under 1/2" at 100 yards. Had I stopped there I would have convinced myself that I have a 1/2 MOA carbine, and then been really aggravated the next time I tried it and shot a group just under 1 MOA. The last 10 shot group with that load development went .92" center to center. More testing is needed, but I suspect it will be repeatable.
I think the SCAR is definitely worth looking into for my purposes then. I'll definitely need to do some more research and try to get my hands on one before I make a decision. If I went that route I would just have to live with the iron sights for a while until I can afford to get some quality glass mounted on top of it. Thanks for the input!
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Llama Bob
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Given the prevalence of Larue rifles at the top of the arfcom 1MOA challenge leader board, I think we can safely say they produce a lot of rifles that shoot very well for a large number of rounds, not just 3. While it is possible to game a "1 MOA" guarantee, the manufacturers I mentioned have produced rifles that I would have confidence in personally.
Coal Dragger
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I've played with one a few times, just haven't shot one. I really like that rifle from an ergonomics standpoint, and they are surprisingly light. Very cool. Just expensive, no two ways about it.
Regardless of what the Internet Pundits would have us believe, no AR has ever been made with a direct impingement system. With a DI system, the gas impinges directly against the exterior of the carrier. The AR directs the gas to a piston & cylinder inside the carrier. Colt calls it "direct gas". Researching Stoner's patents will explain the system in greater detail why it's not a DI system.
What folks call a "piston" AR is nothing more than an upper where the piston inside the carrier (which is part of the bolt) is deactivated and has another piston added to the gas block along with an op rod to get the carrier moving. The system works, but there is no real improvement in performance over the direct gas system. You end up paying more to get basically the same thing.
I don't know if you can get the M&P10 with a 16 inch barrel or not. Mine has an 18 inch barrel. Getting an after market barrel is not as easy as with some other 308 ARs but not impossible
I believe you can pickup an FNAR for under $1K, even around the $900 mark. I think you will have a hard time (and $$$) finding a battle rifle to match the FNAR in accuracy. BUT I think the mags are proprietary and in the $60 range. To me this is still a good deal.
I have 5 genuine HK mags for my HK 91 I really only use 1 of them and I shoot it a fair amount. I could see picking up a 2nd FNAR mag... but if they ain't dead after 40 rounds you are doing something wrong! I have 20 more HK mags on the way to me in the mail... at $2.97 each I couldn't resist. I will still only use 1 or 2 mags at most. (I paid around $60 for my HK mags when I first bought my 91 about 20 years ago.)
FNAR = Good price, good weight, very good accuracy and $60 magazines... you can't have everything!
Shop around. Harder to find lately but you can get a scar 17 for under $2000 if you are patient.
I paid $2800
Scar 17 like new
Brand new Eotech xps 2-0
11 unopened scar mags
Pelican 1750 case
Bore snake
Sling
Vertical fore grip
$2,000 for a SCAR 17? Are you talking used? And where did you get your from for that price?
I'm in no rush to buy so waiting and shopping around is fine with me. I've just never heard of a SCAR being that cheap
Okay that makes more sense. I'm not against buying used, but I do prefer to buy new
The Sig 716 certainly looks like a viable candidate. But the specs on Sig's website have it at 9.3 lbs. That's a little heaver than I want to go
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I went with the scar because it's a proven platform. I was able to see mine first, it had factory grease still and looked like it had never been shot. They are awesome to shoot. Join that Facebook group. Lots of really knowledgable guys on there.
Daniel Defense also make a nice 7.62 version.
If you join I'm on there R Scott Murdoch
Take care and good luck. I guarantee you wouldn't be disappointed with a scar 17
My 16 and 17 together
Llama Bob
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While the SCAR 17s/heavy is a very nice weapon and I have little if anything bad to say about them, I don't believe they meet OP's accuracy requirements as originally stated. I'd put a typical example at about 1.5 MOA for an average 5 shot group with FGMM and a little worse on average with most surplus.
That said, unless you're planning on doing lots of shooting for groups or at small targets at long range, relaxing the accuracy requirement may be a very reasonable way to proceed. Shooting MOA isn't all it's cracked up to be once wind is involved. In the context of a battle rifle the SCAR 17s is very accurate.
That said, unless you're planning on doing lots of shooting for groups or at small targets at long range, relaxing the accuracy requirement may be a very reasonable way to proceed. Shooting MOA isn't all it's cracked up to be once wind is involved. In the context of a battle rifle the SCAR 17s is very accurate.
lmccrock
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Adams Arms has a 308 piston AR. 16 inch barrel, 7.8 pounds. I do not have one, so just putting it out there.
grampajack
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If I had the money, I would get the SCAR 17, hands down. If I couldn't afford the SCAR, then my next choice would be to build a DPMS pattern AR-10. I think you could build a really nice one for around 1500 that would do sub MOA, if you put the money into the barrel.
ETA: A DI AR-10 is going to give you the best accuracy potential for the least amount of money and weight. When you throw a piston into the mix, accuracy will suffer, weight will increase, and costs will rise dramatically. By the time you've built yourself a piston operated AR-10, you could probably afford the SCAR at that price or at least be pretty close.
ETA: A DI AR-10 is going to give you the best accuracy potential for the least amount of money and weight. When you throw a piston into the mix, accuracy will suffer, weight will increase, and costs will rise dramatically. By the time you've built yourself a piston operated AR-10, you could probably afford the SCAR at that price or at least be pretty close.
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MachIVshooter
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Unless you're prepared to spend a lot of money, this pretty much leaves only the .308 ARs. And even they won't stay under 8 lbs with a scope, mount and loaded magazine.
Welding Rod
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I can't speak to your exact requirements, but the MP10 is pretty light for a 308 SA rifle. Mine won't cycle soft 7.62 ammo, but likes 308. With low end factory ammo it shoots about 3 MOA. With the first hand load I tried with Sierra 168 grain SMKs it shot about 1.25-1.5 MOA. This is with a non-floated barrel, so I am pretty happy with that. I would like to try some FGMM too.
It will take some drop in AR15 triggers too so getting a great trigger pull is quick and easy. I put a Wilson TTU M2 (2-stage) in mine.
I am not impressed though with the "ambi" bolt hold open. It still has to be activated from the left side just like a standard AR and has to be R&R'd to R&R the trigger. I would rather they would have just left that feature off.
I would not hesitate for a second about the gas system, it is light, helpful for best accuracy, and is very easy to clean and service.
It will take some drop in AR15 triggers too so getting a great trigger pull is quick and easy. I put a Wilson TTU M2 (2-stage) in mine.
I am not impressed though with the "ambi" bolt hold open. It still has to be activated from the left side just like a standard AR and has to be R&R'd to R&R the trigger. I would rather they would have just left that feature off.
I would not hesitate for a second about the gas system, it is light, helpful for best accuracy, and is very easy to clean and service.
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