I bought the Black Rain. Stupid me, I bought it because it looked really great and my friend who owns the gun shop never sold me something I didn't like. Over the $2,500 mark. A good 3" group is all you get. A new trigger is a must. Zero company support. But it does look good. The pineapple brake is very sharp and cuts the case. The thin rubber glove cover is a must and a nuisance. Glad to see you doing your research. I wish I had done mine. Not sure what Daniel Defense sells for, But I'd love to get one. Good luck. PS. What glass are thinking about? I put Nikon's .308 BDC on and don't care much for it either. The ring system is soft and the first one I got - it comes with the scope - had to be sent back because the rail bolts didn't line up. Just over $3,000 worth of poor decisions.
Need Suggestions for Quality 7.62 Rifle
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grampajack
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Judging from the posts, it looks to me like a DPMS pattern AR-10 is going to be the only thing that fits your main criteria, albeit likely sans piston.
Your first concern is going to be the barrel. I would highly suggest this one from BHW: http://www.shop.blackholeweaponry.com/308-Win-308B-caliber-16-length-AR10-308-16.htm.
This barrel will easily achieve your MOA requirement with halfway decent ammo, and .5 MOA should be a sure thing with match handloads.
BHW is the best kept secret in the barrel market. I've never seen better at any price, and they easily stack up against 700 dollar barrels all day long. If you use the lightweight profile, then I'm pretty sure you'll easily come in at eight pounds, so long as you stay conscious of weight when selecting the handguard and such.
The only other component you really need to worry about in terms of accuracy is the upper receiver, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to spend a lot of money. It's only important that the flange be a tight fit around the barrel extension. As for the rest, any generic components will be fine, at least in terms of accuracy.
Hope this helps. If you're dead set on a piston at 1500, then I would reevaluate the SOCOM 16. They're really not all that heavy in the hands if you don't go overboard with aftermarket stuff. That's about the only 308 I can think of that is conventionally piston operated and comes in at around 1500. I've never shot groups with my M1A, but from what I've heard I think you could expect around 1.5 MOA with the right ammo.
ETA: For glass, you might look into the Trijicon Accupower line. They're about 700-1000, and I'm extremely happy with the one I just bought, the 1-4x with green mil-dot reticle. The glass is extremely clear and sharp with excellent light transmission. Even at 1x, the target is clearer than with the naked eye due to the light transmission. Very good bang for your buck.
Your first concern is going to be the barrel. I would highly suggest this one from BHW: http://www.shop.blackholeweaponry.com/308-Win-308B-caliber-16-length-AR10-308-16.htm.
This barrel will easily achieve your MOA requirement with halfway decent ammo, and .5 MOA should be a sure thing with match handloads.
BHW is the best kept secret in the barrel market. I've never seen better at any price, and they easily stack up against 700 dollar barrels all day long. If you use the lightweight profile, then I'm pretty sure you'll easily come in at eight pounds, so long as you stay conscious of weight when selecting the handguard and such.
The only other component you really need to worry about in terms of accuracy is the upper receiver, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to spend a lot of money. It's only important that the flange be a tight fit around the barrel extension. As for the rest, any generic components will be fine, at least in terms of accuracy.
Hope this helps. If you're dead set on a piston at 1500, then I would reevaluate the SOCOM 16. They're really not all that heavy in the hands if you don't go overboard with aftermarket stuff. That's about the only 308 I can think of that is conventionally piston operated and comes in at around 1500. I've never shot groups with my M1A, but from what I've heard I think you could expect around 1.5 MOA with the right ammo.
ETA: For glass, you might look into the Trijicon Accupower line. They're about 700-1000, and I'm extremely happy with the one I just bought, the 1-4x with green mil-dot reticle. The glass is extremely clear and sharp with excellent light transmission. Even at 1x, the target is clearer than with the naked eye due to the light transmission. Very good bang for your buck.
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Wow, I really appreciate all of the input that I've gotten - lots of great advice!
I've been thinking about it and considering all of the information on here and I have narrowed it down to 2 options:
1. Get a SCAR 17S.
2. Build my own .308 piston operated AR-10.
Both have different appeal to me:
The SCAR may not have my 1 MOA requirement once I get it out to 300 yards, but from the research I've been doing, as long as I do my part, I can keep it at 1.5 MOA and better. And I can deal with that. As far as weight and reliability go, the SCAR fits my requirements perfectly.
Building my own AR-10 I'm pretty positive I could meet all of my original requirements, including budget, except 1 (now 1.5) MOA. I could do this... but there's really no way for me to know what kind of groups I'm getting until I get the thing put together. If something is off with my build I might be at 3 MOA and have no idea if I did something wrong in my build or if I did everything perfectly and my gun just isn't capable of the kind of groups I am happy with.
So I guess at this points I'm leaning more towards the SCAR. But in order to do this I would have to live with just the iron sights for probably 6 months or better (until my budget allows me to get some quality glass)
I've been thinking about it and considering all of the information on here and I have narrowed it down to 2 options:
1. Get a SCAR 17S.
2. Build my own .308 piston operated AR-10.
Both have different appeal to me:
The SCAR may not have my 1 MOA requirement once I get it out to 300 yards, but from the research I've been doing, as long as I do my part, I can keep it at 1.5 MOA and better. And I can deal with that. As far as weight and reliability go, the SCAR fits my requirements perfectly.
Building my own AR-10 I'm pretty positive I could meet all of my original requirements, including budget, except 1 (now 1.5) MOA. I could do this... but there's really no way for me to know what kind of groups I'm getting until I get the thing put together. If something is off with my build I might be at 3 MOA and have no idea if I did something wrong in my build or if I did everything perfectly and my gun just isn't capable of the kind of groups I am happy with.
So I guess at this points I'm leaning more towards the SCAR. But in order to do this I would have to live with just the iron sights for probably 6 months or better (until my budget allows me to get some quality glass)
MachIVshooter
Member
Two things:
1) AR-10 applies only to Armalite. Anything else is a .308 AR. Technicality, but important nonetheless.
2) Don't bother with an op rod upper. Severely limited options, even more proprietary, offers no real advantages, creates new problems, and comes with a weight penalty. Stick with the Stoner gas system.
The only actual advantage to op rod AR uppers is for suppressed use. And no, it's not a cleaner action; they still get filthy. It's that you'll get less (not no) gas seeping out at the charging handle and up your nose.
grampajack
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If you build an AR-10 with good components, especially a good barrel, then there's really not much you can do wrong. AR builds really are that foolproof these days. The only way you could really go wrong is if you use an el cheapo upper receiver that has a lot of slop in the flange, and even then, while not ideal, you can still bed it and make it work. Long story short, go with the BHW barrel in an Aero upper receiver and you're almost guaranteed truly exceptional accuracy at a very reasonable price.
I think you're going to encounter a compromise decision with the piston kits, though. If you use a piston on a free floated barrel, then the movement of the piston is going to interfere with barrel harmonics, so you either have to get a heavier barrel or just live with the reduction in accuracy. There's really no predicting the outcome, as it would depend entirely upon the piston kit in question and, specifically, the barrel, but lightweight barrels with gas pistons tend more towards the 2 MOA range in general. Long story short, to get where you want, you'll either have to increase the weight or accept larger groups than what you might want. I would advise against using a 308 heavy barrel unless you're planning on this being a dedicated DMR style build that you'll always be shooting from a supported position. With the weight of the piston system combined with the weight of a heavy barrel I think you'll be looking at ten pounds or more, with most of the weight being out front. I know for me I couldn't comfortably shoot such a gun offhand, especially once optics were added.
If it were me, I would forgo the piston or just go ahead and get the SCAR, or otherwise reconsider the M1A. I think even the M1A is going to put you closer to what you want than a piston operated AR-10. It's also been my experience that DI ARs are just as reliable as any other rifle for the first 200 rounds or so. It's not until after several hundred rounds have been fired that the lubrication starts to become fouled enough to jeopardize reliability. 200 rounds is basically all the average person can carry anyways, so I think the DI vs piston debate is kind of moot. It's also a fact of life that not all AR gas piston systems are created equal, so there's no guarantee that it will be anymore reliable than a DI gun. With modern coatings and lubricants especially, DI is pretty much just as reliable as anything else. It's also worth noting that the good piston kits are very expensive, so it's possible, if not likely, you'll end up with a 12 pound rifle that shoots 1.5 MOA and costs somewhere around 2 grand. There also aren't as many options for aftermarket piston kits for 308.
Part of my rationale for 308 battle rifles is that if you're going to have a caliber that can reach out to 1000 yards, along with the associated weight and recoil, then it behooves the rifle to be accurate enough to actually hit something at that range. 1 MOA at 1000 yards being more or less equal to 10'', let's say for argument's sake that a decent shooter could make consistent center mass hits at around 700-800 yards under average conditions. If you open those groups up to 2 MOA, then at 800 yards you'd be looking at more like 16'' groups under ideal conditions, and that's if the shooter and weather were perfect and there was no margin of error. At 2 MOA, that brings the real world accuracy down to around 500 yards, which is almost within the effective reach of 223. In conclusion, I believe a DI AR-10 is the perfect 308. It's light enough to be handy and accurate enough to justify the large caliber. Of course there are other advantages to 308 like barrier penetration and better terminal performance at intermediate range, so accuracy isn't the only consideration. But it does make sense to me to squeeze out all you can in all areas, so long as it doesn't involve making any major compromises.
Please excuse the book I just wrote. I'm down with a bug, so I have the time. I hope something in there helps you in your quest.
The gun will be run suppressed pretty much any time i'm shooting it. So if piston has an advantage to running it with a suppressor that's even more of a reason for me to get a piston operated 308
Quentin
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Excellent post, grampajack! It was a pleasure reading it, especially since you have a good command of the English language and technical knowledge of the subject. I hope you shake off that bug soon.
grampajack
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That definitely changes things. The suppressor is going to not only prefer a gas piston, but it will also degrade accuracy potential even further. No matter what you do, I think realistically you're going to have to plan for 2 MOA at best, perhaps 1.5 MOA with match grade handloads if you have a good quality can. You could tighten those groups up a bit with a heavy barrel, but, again, it's going to be so muzzle heavy that most people wouldn't be able to shoot it offhand without heavy fatigue, especially now that a suppressor is in the mix.
My first choice for your needs would still be the SCAR 17, followed by the SOCOM 16. On a good day you can pick up a used SOCOM 16 for around 1400, and the suppressor adapter will put you right at your 1500 dollar goal. It's also only 1 pound over your weight limit, and keep in mind that most of that weight is in the receiver towards the rear.
If you want a piston AR, then I would probably end up buying a factory one if it were me. I did a little research on the currently available piston kits for 308, and I wasn't really impressed with what was out there. Again, though, 308 piston ARs aren't cheap, so I would go with the SCAR in that situation. I did notice that Adams Arms has a complete 308 for around 1600, so you might look into that one. Again, though, I have to stress that I would rather have an M1A than a piston AR any day of the week. From what I've seen and heard, I don't altogether trust piston ARs, but that's just my opinion. YMMV.
I may still consider the M1A then. But I've had a 9 lb AR before and it was no fun. I'm not much of a bench rest shooter so lugging around a heavy rifle isn't something I want to do.
The SCAR 17 is currently at the top of my list and most likely what I will end up going with. Now I just need to decide what kind of glass to put on it....
The can is a SilencerCo Specwar 762 with a QD mount
grampajack
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I wouldn't get too preoccupied with weight. Even the SCAR is 8 lbs. While a single pound can make a lot of difference in the barrel (i.e. pencil vs. SOCOM), when it's distributed evenly throughout the rifle you won't notice it nearly as much. In short, the weight differences in 308 battle rifles are probably more or less negligible, especially once optics, a loaded mag, and anything else is involved. You'll have 1.5 lbs in the mag, approximately 2 lbs for the average scope/mount combo, and another 8 oz or more for a light, vertical grip, sling, BUIS, and anything else you might want. So basically 4 lbs of optics and accessories if you don't go overboard. Long story short, at the end of the day you're looking at 12 vs. 13 lbs. To be completely honest, I don't think the average person could really tell the difference.
As far as accuracy, I think both rifles will be in the same ballpark, with the SCAR possibly having a slight edge. In reality, piston operated rifles with lightweight barrels, in other words typical 308 battle rifles, do around 2 MOA, and those groups are going to start to open up after the first mag.
Don't get me wrong, though. The SCAR has some clear advantages. The ergonomics are far better, it's easier to mount optics, and it's easier to mount a suppressor. You'll just have to decide if those advantages are worth an extra thousand. Also keep in mind that SCAR 17 mags are double the price of USGI M14 mags.
I also wouldn't take the AR off the table completely. There are ways to mitigate the back pressure, namely with an adjustable gas block. The only downside is that once tuned the rifle will not operate well without the suppressor until you re-tune the gas block, but if you're already committed to the suppressor being full time then that's not an issue. While it won't be all that much lighter, a DI AR can do .5 MOA without going to extreme measures or expense. There's no reason you can't get a .5 MOA AR-10 for 1500 if you put your money in the right places, namely the barrel. So basically you would be getting double or triple the accuracy of the SCAR for a thousand less.
All that extra weight after adding scope, loaded mag, light, and sling is why i'm trying to keep the weight as low as possible. However accuracy and reliability rank higher than weight. So at the end of the day the weight won't be a deciding factor.
Right now I would say it is still between the SCAR and M1A. I don't want to take the AR off the table because I like that platform. But having never owned a 308 semi-auto, I don't know that I would feel comfortable building one even though I have built and owned a few AR-15's.
You do make a good point about extra magazines, but at most I can't see myself getting for than 5 or 6 extra mags. Also I'm sure there are a lot more affordable aftermarket parts for M1A than there are the SCAR if I ever wanted to make any upgrades. I have seen a couple aftermarket lower receivers for the SCAR that allow it to use Magpul 308 PMAGs which I would probably look into if I got a SCAR. But those receivers are about $300...
At this point I'll probably need to go get my hands on both of the guns and hopefully be able to find a range that will have them available to shoot, and just see which one I prefer
Jackal
Member
A quality adjustable gas block is a lot less expensive and lighter weight than most pistons....
My DPMS G2 AP4 is a 7.25lb rifle that shoots bulk FMJ into the 2" region (never tried any quality match ammo, I'm too cheap). With a Leupold 2.5-8x scope and Aero mount, it still only weighs 8.2lbs. A loaded 20rd Pmag weighs another 1.5lbs.
My DPMS G2 AP4 is a 7.25lb rifle that shoots bulk FMJ into the 2" region (never tried any quality match ammo, I'm too cheap). With a Leupold 2.5-8x scope and Aero mount, it still only weighs 8.2lbs. A loaded 20rd Pmag weighs another 1.5lbs.
grampajack
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We all know which one you will prefer, lol. And it's gonna cost ya.
Coal Dragger
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Well all of them except the SCAR 17S. Which also happens to be the only one to pass military trials for SOCOM use that is under 8 lbs for just the rifle. The rest are unproven range toys.
Whiskey11
Member
I'd hardly call the M1A (Springfield Armory Inc's civilian variant of the M14) to be an unproven range toy. If anything, it's hard to argue that any other option has the same pedigree as a battle rifle as the M14 which is nothing more than a product improved Garand.
Anyway, I think some of the expectations need to be curbed a bit. Reliable, MOA accuracy, can't be easily had in a lightweight semi auto rifle. If you want reliable MOA accuracy in a .308 with lightweight being a priority, buy yourself a bolt action and understand that you will not have the ROF of something else.
Otherwise, you will be hard pressed to find something that fits your needs... Again, if weight is really that big of a concern you will have to compromise elsewhere as a .308 rifle simply can't be had at that weight, with your accuracy expectations, in a semi-auto.
Not that I agree with everything he says, but nutnfancy talks in depth (what doesn't he talk in depth about...) about how choosing a .308 battle rifle requires the expectation of giving up mobility (mostly in increased weight) for the added firepower of a .308 cartridge.
Anyway, I think some of the expectations need to be curbed a bit. Reliable, MOA accuracy, can't be easily had in a lightweight semi auto rifle. If you want reliable MOA accuracy in a .308 with lightweight being a priority, buy yourself a bolt action and understand that you will not have the ROF of something else.
Otherwise, you will be hard pressed to find something that fits your needs... Again, if weight is really that big of a concern you will have to compromise elsewhere as a .308 rifle simply can't be had at that weight, with your accuracy expectations, in a semi-auto.
Not that I agree with everything he says, but nutnfancy talks in depth (what doesn't he talk in depth about...) about how choosing a .308 battle rifle requires the expectation of giving up mobility (mostly in increased weight) for the added firepower of a .308 cartridge.
We all know which one you will prefer, lol. And it's gonna cost ya.
Haha I am afraid of that
I don't know why I didn't think of the PWS earlier. It weighs almost 9 mounts. But it is piston operated and I've heard nothing but good things about their reliability. Do you have any knowledge of their accuracy capabilities?
You can probably look up some reviews. I don't believe any reports of the MK116 (5.56/.223) accuracy can directly translate to its bigger brother. I've not had a chance to shoot mine past 200 yards yet.
I went through this same mental exercise as you and determined that any high-rate of fire from a .308 would just be dollar$ signs leaving the barrel on every trigger pull. I opted for a Tikka CTR Scout with the CDi bottom metal modification instead. It gives me 10 rounds in a mag, a purposeful slower rate of fire and sub-moa accuracy. If accuracy is of the utmost concern, this is an alternative to consider.
I went through this same mental exercise as you and determined that any high-rate of fire from a .308 would just be dollar$ signs leaving the barrel on every trigger pull. I opted for a Tikka CTR Scout with the CDi bottom metal modification instead. It gives me 10 rounds in a mag, a purposeful slower rate of fire and sub-moa accuracy. If accuracy is of the utmost concern, this is an alternative to consider.
Coal Dragger
member
Sorry Whiskey 11 but the M1A doesn't make weight, is larger than the OP is looking for, and is frankly long past obsolescence.
The M14's pulled out of storage for Afghanistan and Iraq were used just long enough to fill the gap to a better more capable replacement. For the DMR role that would be the M110, and for the heavy hitter general purpose rifle the SCAR H.
I've owned 2 M1A's over the years, and they were well made and fun to shoot. However among the crop of 7.62 NATO auto loading rifles would be my last choice for an isued rifle. I never once wished for an M14 while I was in Iraq as a Marine infantryman, and I did have experience with the M1A/M14 at that time.
grampajack
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This is probably the lightest 308 AR on the market right now. And I'm venturing to guess that it's also amongst the most expensive.
http://www.christensenarms.com/firearms/msr/ca-10-dmr
You could actually get pretty close to that building one yourself with a slim barrel and a lightweight handguard.
Are you absolutely certain you need a 308? What's the furthest you see yourself shooting, realistically? And are you willing to pay for the level of glass needed to go that far?
The reason I ask is you might be better of with something like 6.5 Grendel. You get some extra range but in a package that still fits into a small frame AR. You could easily build a sub 7 pound 6.5 that would shoot dime sized groups at 100 yards.
http://www.christensenarms.com/firearms/msr/ca-10-dmr
You could actually get pretty close to that building one yourself with a slim barrel and a lightweight handguard.
Are you absolutely certain you need a 308? What's the furthest you see yourself shooting, realistically? And are you willing to pay for the level of glass needed to go that far?
The reason I ask is you might be better of with something like 6.5 Grendel. You get some extra range but in a package that still fits into a small frame AR. You could easily build a sub 7 pound 6.5 that would shoot dime sized groups at 100 yards.
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