Camp David
member
Desertdog said:
How's that minefield construction project progressing?
Chertoff: Not 'practical' to deport illegal aliens
- Thread starter Desertdog
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How's that minefield construction project progressing?
Cellar Dweller
Member
chop chop
OK Mr. Chertoff, what happens when the "guest workers" decide to overstay their 3- or 6-year period? You've just stated that they won't be deported anyway, so what is the difference?
If I was an illegal alien, I now know that the leadership of the U.S. lacks the stomach to deport me. Why would I give up a portion of my wages (more pay but now it'd be taxed, likely a wash) when I'd be liable for expenses (medical bills, schooling, insurance, etc.)?
OK Mr. Chertoff, what happens when the "guest workers" decide to overstay their 3- or 6-year period? You've just stated that they won't be deported anyway, so what is the difference?
If I was an illegal alien, I now know that the leadership of the U.S. lacks the stomach to deport me. Why would I give up a portion of my wages (more pay but now it'd be taxed, likely a wash) when I'd be liable for expenses (medical bills, schooling, insurance, etc.)?
Waitone
Member
What Chertoff does not understand is an amnesty / work program will defeat the very reason for illegal immigration. The economic value to US business interests is because illegal immigrants work for less than market rates because they are not part of the system. They don't exist on the books hence don't collect other assorted costs associated with above table workers. A working program designed to bring them to the top of the table would defeat the very reason for hiring illegally.
In other words, I don't think you'll see a huge wave of immigrants falling all over themselves to register because the act of registering would dramatically reduce their economic utility. If however they are here to become Americans and get a slice of the American dream, they will register. The great irony is we could create a new massive program of work permits that would fall on its face. . . .just llike all the other immigration initiative of the past.
In other words, I don't think you'll see a huge wave of immigrants falling all over themselves to register because the act of registering would dramatically reduce their economic utility. If however they are here to become Americans and get a slice of the American dream, they will register. The great irony is we could create a new massive program of work permits that would fall on its face. . . .just llike all the other immigration initiative of the past.
RealGun
Member
Waitone said:
Can you integrate the notion that "these are jobs that no one else wants"? I don't buy that. What I believe is that these are higher quality workers than Americans who might work for relatively low wages. Having workers who want to work and who show up sober is a very attractive idea.
Waitone
Member
What needs to be added is ". . . . at the price level being offered." Every worker is its own business. Every business has a breakeven point where all fixed costs are paid and incremental dollars now accumulate. Like it or not we live in a society where there is a breakeven costs that is higher than comparable countries. Costs included in breakeven calculations include taxation, social security, workmans comp, housing, transportation, education, and medical care. Someone above the table includes all these costs in their breakeven calculation. By hiring under the table the employer does not have to foot the bill for a number of the costs that above the table workers have to pay. Employers can then offer a lower rate of employment and a willing worker can be found simply because that worker's breakeven cost is significantly lower and he can still accumulate wealth.
I hate being a one-note samba but the issue is the cost of government. We as a society simply can not afford the cost of a governmental leviathian in a society of mobile labor. I have yet to see an economic workup of the breakdown in costs of employing an illegal vs a top of the table worker. We need to look at the workup from the employers viewpoint and from that of the illegal in the US. I suspect we will see major bucks being made by the illegals working in the US under the table. People respond to economic incentives and given the intensity of illegal immigration I suspect the incentives are profound.
longeyes
member
the cost of sending them back
Send the bill to Vicente Fox.
Which country is more powerful? From here it looks as if Mexico gets what it wants.
Send the bill to Vicente Fox.
Which country is more powerful? From here it looks as if Mexico gets what it wants.
garyk/nm
Member
Waitone makes a very good point. Let's take it a step further: once all of these workers are brought "above the table", who are they going to be competing against? Americans! Guess what is going to happen to the lower end of the wage scale for jobs Americans really want to do? This will have an effect on ALL wages over time.
seeker_two
Member
Deportation too expensive?...
I bet we could cover the cost by controlling the Mexican oil fields....
When did the word "reparations" disappear from our vocabulary?...
I bet we could cover the cost by controlling the Mexican oil fields....
When did the word "reparations" disappear from our vocabulary?...
longeyes
member
Mexico wants a solution to its social problems, access to our labor markets, regardless of the consequences to our economy and polity. I don't see the same openness extended to us; in fact, Mexico is paranoid about violations to its sovereignty, bristling with machismo at every perceived slight.
We are going to need a much tougher President and a much tougher Congress to deal with this or the alternative will be, eventually, a form of vigilante response on a local level.
We are going to need a much tougher President and a much tougher Congress to deal with this or the alternative will be, eventually, a form of vigilante response on a local level.
longeyes
member
unidad
Let's not forget that the master plan is to turn Canada, the United States, and Mexico into, de facto, one country. That lies behind everything that is said or isn't said, done or not done.
Let's not forget that the master plan is to turn Canada, the United States, and Mexico into, de facto, one country. That lies behind everything that is said or isn't said, done or not done.
Barring some catastrophic national or international event, that won't be happening anytime soon. The American people are, by and large, fat, dumb and lazy. We have been conditioned to expect government to provide, protect, and insure us prosperity. The people who occupy the Whitehouse and Capitol building simply reflect those attitudes. As far as any activism on local levels goes, it's not likely either. The central bureaucracy has become too powerful and intrusive and will most assuredly override any local action.
As long as the Walmarts continue doing a brisk business selling cheap foreign crap, and the money continues to flow into government coffers via withholding taxes, nothing will change. The politicians will continue to pander to whomever will re-elect them, and thanks to the Bush administration, the Democrats have now learned that fearmongering will allow them to accumulate even more power.
We're continually being split into 'haves' and 'have-nots'. The middle class is eroding; disappearing.
longeyes
member
I don't disagree with your premises, well, except...
We have not yet reached the flashpoint in terms of the costs, both economic and psychological, to the middle class. So far they are surviving, dealing with the erosion and entropy. At some point, though, they will start to lose the things they have taken for granted.
Let's say Prop. XIII were repealed to fund the consequences of illegal immigration. A lot of people would be forced out of their homes by confiscatory tax bills. And then...?
Will it get to that point? Yes, I think it will, and you seem to concur.
We have not yet reached the flashpoint in terms of the costs, both economic and psychological, to the middle class. So far they are surviving, dealing with the erosion and entropy. At some point, though, they will start to lose the things they have taken for granted.
Let's say Prop. XIII were repealed to fund the consequences of illegal immigration. A lot of people would be forced out of their homes by confiscatory tax bills. And then...?
Will it get to that point? Yes, I think it will, and you seem to concur.
Waitone
Member
Fat? Yep! Dumb? Yep! Happy? How true! Oblivious? Generally.
The one area where the stereotype breaks down is in illegal immigration. Polling shows a really wide gap exists. Neither side is attempting to bridge the gap. Ruling class is firm in what it wants and the taxpaying class has its own view of how to fix the problem. Illegal immigrration is the one issue that encapsulates the major gripes taxpayers have with their masters. The issue if volitile and its ramifications are profound.
The one area where the stereotype breaks down is in illegal immigration. Polling shows a really wide gap exists. Neither side is attempting to bridge the gap. Ruling class is firm in what it wants and the taxpaying class has its own view of how to fix the problem. Illegal immigrration is the one issue that encapsulates the major gripes taxpayers have with their masters. The issue if volitile and its ramifications are profound.
CAnnoneer
Member
RealGun said:
Most people drive, don't they? If one does, one has to carry a driver's license anyway. If you have a valid license, chances are you are legit. It would also help to just start stating country of citizenship on the license. Negligible cost, great benefit. No wonder the leftists here in Cali spent so much money fighting Aanold to allow driver's licenses to be issued to illegals. If they were so livid about it, it must be good for the country.
That's a sensitive and frightening prospect to me, because it's possible as the 'gimme' voting constituency rabble increase. I'm 59 now and we nearly have our home paid off. As we go into the fixed income years of retirement, there's gonna be no way we can pay unlimited property taxes. I don't know how many Californians are in the same situation as we are but I'd wager enough to put up a fight.
EghtySx
Member
They don't work cheaper. They work for the same or a bit more than many citizens do when you factor in all the free services they recieve. The difference is that our tax money pays the rest of their wages in the form of free healthcare, food stamps, sec 8 housing, etc. etc. That's how companies get cheaper labor, We the People pay the rest of the illegal's salaries.
Waitone
Member
Precisely the reason all hell is breaking out over states like NC which issue DL's using sterling ID's like taxpayer ID numbers (something the DoJ has said to knock off), matricula cards, and bank accounts. NC used to issue a DL with a matricula card (actually you didn't need an ID, you could just sign an affadavit saying you are who you claimed to be). Get the DL and go to Bank of America and open a checking account. DoJ said to fix it so now the scam is BoA takes the matricula card to open a checking account. Then the perp takes the bank account to NC where they issue a DL. It is a scam and for the life of me I don't understand why someone hasn't body slammed NC for this crap.
The presumption is if you have a valid DL you are in the US under legit circumstances. Not true when NC throws a DL in the backseat as you drive by. NC is the east coast destination for illegals because it is so easy to get a DL. Take a NC DL and go to any state you want, board any plane you want, open any bank account you want, get any credit card you want, buy any house you want, sign any contract you want. OH, BTW, you can register to vote thanks to Motor Voter and criminally slack voting laws. States like NC and the other 5 are the source of a lot of mischief WRT illegal immigration.
1. ALL the research shows that the American people (80%+) are truly angry about the illegal immigration situation and want something done.
2. Normally, when that many voters are on one side of an issue, the political creatures answer to their survival instincts and at least do something about the issue, even if it is ineffective.
3. The political creatures are doing NOTHING about the issue.
Which leads me to ask, why? The ONLY reason that makes any sense is money. SOMEONE is pushing huge sums of money onto the political creatures, or those who control them, to keep the situation status quo.
Chertof is just an example of one of the political creatures who has been given his orders to not rock the boat, and make sure that the money keeps flowing in to the coffers.
The consequences for the country, of course, do not count.
2. Normally, when that many voters are on one side of an issue, the political creatures answer to their survival instincts and at least do something about the issue, even if it is ineffective.
3. The political creatures are doing NOTHING about the issue.
Which leads me to ask, why? The ONLY reason that makes any sense is money. SOMEONE is pushing huge sums of money onto the political creatures, or those who control them, to keep the situation status quo.
Chertof is just an example of one of the political creatures who has been given his orders to not rock the boat, and make sure that the money keeps flowing in to the coffers.
The consequences for the country, of course, do not count.
Regulated programs my butt, even the programs do a terrible job of regulating. It’s not uncommon for these people to swap identities with the unregulated crowd. They can work more over time, take more days off, seek medical treatment, file multiple healthcare claims on the same policy, share auto insurance, avoid large deductibles, give false information to police and fail to show up in court.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we all had multiple aliases and could pass the cost on to someone else?
Excellent idea!
longeyes
member
You can also expect, from the Left, a "wealth tax," a yearly hit based on your net worth, not income. If you have an expensive house, current assessment, and someone wants you to ante up three, four per cent "to help the downtrodden" (illegal aliens) that could be a problem. It would be for me.
longeyes
member
Really? You can take the test in Spanish.
RealGun
Member
TheEgg said:3. The political creatures are doing NOTHING about the issue.
Which leads me to ask, why? The ONLY reason that makes any sense is money. SOMEONE is pushing huge sums of money onto the political creatures, or those who control them, to keep the situation status quo.
Chertof is just an example of one of the political creatures who has been given his orders to not rock the boat, and make sure that the money keeps flowing in to the coffers.
The consequences for the country, of course, do not count.
Both advocating free trade and looking the other way on illegal immigration relate to a concern for inflation. If you suddenly pull the plug on cheap labor, there will be hell to pay, tanking investments, all sorts of economic repercussions. The amnesty idea was a way of letting the economy down more gradually, providing time to shed the dependence on this cheap labor source.
From what I have seen, commercial construction costs will be hit the hardest. Among these are the day laborers picked up every morning in front of the Seven-Eleven, no questions asked.
Master Blaster
Member
Its very simple really,
Fine anyone caught with an illegal alien working in their shop $100,000 PER ILLEGAL.
The Govt can then use the money collected after the FBI and the Immigration service raid Walmarts coast to coast to deport the illegals.
Once a few folks get hit with the $100,000 fine the demand for illegal workers will dry up and people will be turning them in right and left.
They can send them to Iraq, and put them to work for Haliburton, Kellog Root and Brown, cleaning toilets there.
Fine anyone caught with an illegal alien working in their shop $100,000 PER ILLEGAL.
The Govt can then use the money collected after the FBI and the Immigration service raid Walmarts coast to coast to deport the illegals.
Once a few folks get hit with the $100,000 fine the demand for illegal workers will dry up and people will be turning them in right and left.
They can send them to Iraq, and put them to work for Haliburton, Kellog Root and Brown, cleaning toilets there.
RealGun
Member
Master Blaster said:
Hmmm. A bounty on illegal alien employers. Now there's an idea. First you have to want to get rid of the workers.
We have to remember that it is unlikely that all illegal immigrants have jobs.
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