Cleared my house last night..

[valorius]

I live alone, so if i see a silhouette in my house in the dark...

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by valorius: I live alone, so if i see a silhouette in my house in the dark...

Well, you didn't complete the sentence, but I surely hope that you are not advocating shooting someone you cannot identify simply because you cannot conceive of any reason for an innocent person to be in your house.

 

[valorius]

There is no reason for an innocent person to be in my alarmed, auto-locking steel door secured domicile,which has no ground floor windows. (I live in an old firehouse)

None whatsoever.

Besides a single industrial steel door, there is one ground level way in my place- a giant industrial steel garage door, which has mechanical locking devices backing up the auto-opener. No one has a key except for me.

So, again, if you're inside and i see your silhouette in the dark....

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by valorious: There is no reason for an innocent person to be in my alarmed, auto-locking steel door secured domicile,which has no ground floor windows. (I live in an old firehouse)

None whatsoever.

None that you have thought of, you mean. How about an LEO summoned by a neighbor and pursuing the guy you think you are going to shoot, or a fireman trying to find out whether there is someone inside who needs to be rescued from fire or a major hazmat incident? Things are not always as they appear.

Besides a single industrial steel door, there is one ground level way in my place- a giant industrial steel garage door, which has mechanical locking devices backing up the auto-opener. No one has a key except for me.

Irrelevant. If you see that silhouette in the dark, someone has gained entry, but that doesn't mean it would be a good idea to shoot.

If the person did turn out to be a fireman or LEO, you might not be able to use the defense that the person had entered unlawfully, and if you were to fire at a silhouette, you might find it harder than you think to persuade anyone that you had been compelled to act instantly to protect yourself.

And suppose it were simply a neighbor checking on your previously breached doors and locks and trying to find out if you were OK; you might not be charged, but how would you like the aftermath?

So, again, if you're inside and i see your silhouette in the dark....

Well, you may think that stopping there and leaving it for the reader to divine your meaning is effective, but be very careful about what you post on line and be very careful about knowing your target if you do ever have to shoot someone.

 

[CoRoMo]

So, again, if you're inside and i see your silhouette in the dark....

Are you saying that, if you find someone in there, then you must be dreaming? Because as you've stated, NOBODY could possibly get inside that fortress.

or

Are you saying that, if you find someone in there, then they are assuredly up to no good?



Because both are wrong. Your fortress isn't impenetrable, and an innocent person could be misguided enough to think they have reason to compromise the locked facility. They may be in the wrong building, and they could mean no harm to anyone, but I guess that won't stop you from issuing them a swift death.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

catch 22

shoot or be shot or wait and see.

someone in my house in the middle of the night better be making some noise and not be sneaking around, then again bad guys have busted in and yelled POLICE so now what

 

[Boris bush]

In the state valorius lives in the law infers that they are there to commit the worst of crimes. If his residence is illegaly entered the law infers crimes against a person will happen. This is a felony in our state. A felony is defensible by lethal force. If someone is looking for the loacal crack dealer or stop and rob and are there by accident and the use of deadly force is "accidental" as the law puts it, then it is excusable as long as his actions were legaly intended. The law clearly defines what a person infers so he would be good.

Sounds just terrible doesnt it. Maybe he knows exactly what he can do within the law. Its his choice to use his legal rights to the fullest extent. Not a person here has a right to belittle him or tell him otherwise. He has not said he would break any law on purpose. His intentions are 100% legal where he lives. If thats the way he wants to do it, then let him go at it. I have yet to see him tell anyone else how to go about a very personal decision, and I bet he won't either..

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Boris bush: In the state valorius lives in the law infers that they are there to commit the worst of crimes. If his residence is illegaly entered the law infers crimes against a person will happen

You have me at a disadvantage. Where does he live?

Generally, laws in states with a "castle doctrine" provide someone who is lawfully inside a residence with a presumption that, if someone has entered unlawfully, he has a basis for a reasonable belief that he faces imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, and would thus be justified in using deadly force if necessary. One must understand that such a presumption is generally rebuttable.

In some states, the occupant must have a basis for a reasonable believe that the entry was made unlawfully and with force. In others, deadly force may be used if necessary to stop an attempt to enter unlawfully and with force. In still others, the resident must also have a basis for a reasonable belief that the intruder intended to commit another crime in addition to the unlawful entry.

As simple unlawful entry may not cut it. Last year, a man illegally entered the residence of a family in the state of Washington. The resident returned home, got his rifle, and shot the intruder dead. He was charged with murder and ended up pleading guilty to a lesser charge. The presumption of imminent danger was contraindicated by the circumstances.

I do not know here valorius lives and cannot judge specifically, but I think one can safely bet that, if that silhouette that he sees turns out to be a policeman in hot pursuit of a dangerous felon, he will not have an unlawful entry to fall back upon in his defense. He might prevail in his defense and he might not have a chance. It would be a bad scene all the way around.

This is a felony in our state. A felony is defensible by lethal force.

No, no, NO! Force may be used, to the extent that it is reasonably required, to prevent or stop a felony. Deadly force is something altogether different. Although there are exceptions, deadly force may generally be used only to prevent forcible felonies, or whatever they are called in the jurisdiction at hand.

 

[CoRoMo]

He has not said he would break any law on purpose.

I'm not claiming that he'll break any law. I'm just saying that if you fire upon an intruder before you've identified them as a threat, you might be killing an innocent person, who meant you no harm and was no threat to your safety. If you do that, you might break a law, you might not, it doesn't matter.

So you fire on that mentally handicapped kid who is in your house uninvited, and you get away with it because you convince the authorities that you felt threatened enough to use deadly force against that unidentified silhouette. Yippee, right? Do a happy dance because you did not break the law, you just killed an innocent person, that's all.

 

[valorius]

Your fortress isn't impenetrable, and an innocent person could be misguided enough to think they have reason to compromise the locked facility. They may be in the wrong building, and they could mean no harm to anyone, but I guess that won't stop you from issuing them a swift death.

That is a "mistake" that will most likely cost them their life.

It would take a professional locksmith, blowtorch or a sawsall to get into my residence. There is zero possible chance of an innocent person wandering throughout my building without my prior knowledge- especially in my neighborhood. I live alone, no one has a key but me.

If my attitude on this matter is disturbing to you, i suggest you make sure you never go wandering around inside my home at night time.

 

[CoRoMo]

That is a "mistake" that will most likely cost them their life.

My point exactly. You're more than willing to end the life of an innocent person who is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You're awesome.

 

[valorius]

Being inside my house if you don't live here and are not invited, especially at night, is always the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am not going to play 20 questions with someone who any reasonable person would automatically know has evil intent, and is unauthorized to be there. People don't just end up inside highly secure alarmed buildings at night by accident.

You are not familiar with my neighborhood, or just how secure my residence is, so i understand your concern, but at the same time, i do know these things, so if you don't like it...

 

[CHEVELLE427]

just when would you know the person was there by accident and not a threat,

when he doesn't kill you

or ask for directions to burger king.

i may not shoot at first sight but he will have a gun drawn on him and ANY wrong move will result in shots fired.

would Rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6

 

[30mag]

My point exactly. You're more than willing to end the life of an innocent person who is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You're awesome.

I think by virtue of being in his house uninvited, they are guilty.
What steps would you take to ensure they are guilty?

 

[valorius]

would Rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6

Exactly.

Feeling guilty because you shot an "innocent" person who used a Sawsall to cut a hole in your steel entryway and climb inside means one thing for certain.

You are still alive.

Honestly, even if i shoot someone, it is highly unlikely they will die. I am about 3 minutes from a major trauma center, and would certainly call the police immediately following any use of lethal force.

I would probably even give them CPR until the paramedics arrive.

 

[CoRoMo]

Some days I really miss Officer White on this forum.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=328323
Originally posted by Jeff White

This is for everybody who continues to insist that anyone in their home is a threat
To those of you who insist you have to live with your magazines stacked and the pins straightened on your grenades I say get some help before you ruin your life. It is a dangerous world, but it's not that dangerous. If you are so paranoid that you feel your best option is to hide in the dark and shoot anything that doesn't answer your verbal challenge, then you should re-examine your decision to own firearms and keep them ready for defensive purposes. You control the environment in your home. If you can't arrange to have some light available to identify your target, then maybe you should forgo the newest super man-stopping ammunition and extended magazine and get yourself some training and a flashlight. There is a lot more blowing and chest thumping from people who haven't been in a fight since the third grade in this thread then there is common sense.

The point is, a mistaken identity shooting can happen to you. I don't care if you say your door is always locked. It's your responsibility to identify your target. If you have time to call out a challenge, you have time to turn the light on.

A few years ago my (then) teenage son was out camping with his friends, about 3:00 am it started raining and their gear was swamped. About 3:30 am I was awakened to my back door opening. By the standards of many people posting in this thread I'd have been within my legal rights to lean out my bedroom door and gun down the four teenagers who were dragging their wet camping gear into my basement. No one answered when I asked if it was James (my son) he was out at the car getting a second load of wet gear and didn't hear me. Instead I shined my light down the hall and identified the home invader as my son's best friend John. I suppose by the standards some of you set, that makes me a coward, after all I had a perfectly legal reason to lean out the bedroom door with my duty carbine and stack the bodies up on my back step. I suppose if I had, I'd get all kinds of support from those same members. After all, how was I, the hapless homeowner supposed to know who was coming through that door. Even after I identified John, perhaps I should have shot him anyway, after all, he had no business in my house at 0330. Would have taught him a good lesson about going into peoples homes at 0330 and not answering challenges. After all, that was pretty stupid of him and we all know, stupid should hurt.

Jeff

 

[BullfrogKen]

CoRoMo,

I miss Jeff, too.

 

[JohnKSa]

Good read. That was training though. If these shooters have an aversion to a little smoke from their firearm then I have got to wonder what smoke, muzzleflash and muzzleblast from the other end of a two way range will do to their vision of perfect shooting. Lets not forget that they will not have ear pro on for the most part either.

Actually it wasn't training. It was just an experiment.

The smoke was a distraction noted by all the shooters and so we did some further experimentation to see if there was a way to eliminate the distraction. We found a way and so I reported it.

I'm sure that a real life shooting scenario would provide many distractions, some of which could be dealt with easily, some of which couldn't be dealt with at all. The smoke turns out to be a distraction that can be dealt with easily if you know the technique and have night sights. Now you know the technique.

You should have someone tossing M80s out while they are doing their course of fire to better simulate smoke, flash and noise you can expect in real life. All shoots are not practice shoots.

This wasn't a practice shoot and there was no attempt to duplicate real life. It was some testing done to determine if, and under what circumstances, night sights might be useful.

We found two sets of circumstances under which night sights were useful. During the "dusk" period when the target is easily visible but when it's too dark to see the sights, and also in the dark when the target is indirectly illuminated which doesn't provide enough illumination on the target to silhouette the sights.

 

[bobby68]

How did he know i haven't been in a fight since the third grade?

Actually it might have been the 4th or 5th... i can't remember. But i won.

 

[Kleanbore]

This one seems to have run its course.