Col. Cooper & "Substitute Scouts"

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freedomlover

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As someone very interested in the Scout rifle concept, not to mention the satisfied owner of a Savage Scout, I usually keep track of the Scout commentary here on THR. There's a current thread here on the "American Scout" that I've been following with interest, for example...

Anyhow, as everybody is aware the concept was first clearly spelled out by Col. Jeff Cooper, who I respect and admire greatly. Before purchasing my Savage four years ago, I tried to find out what he thought of "substitute Scouts,' i.e. those not manufactured by Steyr. His consensus was that Steyr produced the best example, but was not the only game in town by any means. As long as the rifle met the criteria, it could be called a Scout and (I assumed) met with his approval.

Fast forward to today...I was reading and enjoying "Cooper's Commentaries" as usual, and came across this interesting quote: "Substitute scouts are a mistake." And no further explanation. This seems to be an opinion shift, which of course is OK with me, this being a free country and all. But being the curious sort that I am, I have to ask "why are they a mistake?" If a rifle meets the criteria, it would seem to be a worthy example of the concept. But what do I know?

So a couple of questions...1) how many of you own "substitute Scouts" and don't like them--and why not? And 2) what caused the good Colonel to make this comment? And don't try to tell me it's because he gets royalties from Steyr...

Y'all shoot straight!
 
I'm not a high power rifle shooter, mostly handguns but have been reading articles by Jeff Cooper since before many of this forum's members were born. I still read Cooper's Corner in G&A magazine every month. For the most part I agree with him but on some things I flat disagree. I've heard a lot of comments that the old gentleman is slipping but sometimes I wonder if he might make statements like you mentioned just to stir things up a bit???
 
I knew somebody would bring up the royalties myth. Quote from Cooper's Commentaries, Volume 13 , No. 10:

It may be suggested that I push the Steyr Scout rifle pretty hard, but I do not do so for cash or any other sort of economic reward. I push the Scout because to me it represents excellence, and I revere excellence. It is not perfect - nothing is - but it is close, and since it is my personal concept, I take parental pride in it.


(I don't thing he's lying.)
 
"If a rifle meets the criteria, it would seem to be a worthy example of the concept. "

I agree, and I am sure the Col. also agrees. But read what you wrote again: when the Col. published his thoughts on this subject, there was a criteria. He also said that even the Styer Scout Rifle doesn't fully meet the criteria he laid down as a genuine scout rifle.
Among most gun owners and on most internet gun forums, a scout rifle is nothing more than any given rifle with a forward mounted scope.
A lever action with a forward mounted scope is not a scout rifle per Coopers original criteria, as an example; even though it has a forward mounted scope. The forward mounted scope was only ONE aspect of the original scout concept and that alone does not make it a scout rifle: according to Cooper.
I am not saying that Cooper had all the answers. I am not saying that Cooper's criteria was the best possible option. I am not even saying that people today arn't free to adopt any definition of a scout rifle that they want to. All I am doing is answering your question. Call a Daisy Red Rider a scout rifle if you want to: BUT, words have meaning and in MY OWN mind, it does matter. I think it is a sign of ignorance to use the wrong word even if other people know what you are talking about, and I think it is far worse to know the right term and use the wrong one anyway. But, that is just my opinion which I am fully entitled to.


Before someone asks, NO, I don't recall the specific criteria that Cooper laid down for the scout rifle and I am not going to get up from the couch to look it up. I do know that it was specifically a bolt action rifle. I seem to also remember that he thought it should be able to use stripper clips. After much discussion he decided that it would be in .308 Winchester.................

I am no expert on the scout rifle. I don't own a scout rifle. But I do have a picture of me squatting next to Cooper while he is holding a scout rifle.
 
No Steyr for me...

... I built my scout from a Spanish Mauser converted to 7.62X51 (yeah I know, I shouldn't shoot it cause its too soft and is gonna blow up in my face!:rolleyes: ) and cobbled an AR handle mount to the rear sight bridge...works like a charm.

Currently I am building a Scout based on a No 1 Mk III Lee-Enfield rifle. The barreled action is on its way to me. I am using the scout mount created I found on www.surplusrifle.com

I don't really like the Steyr much. Have handled several and fired one...NOT impressed. AS a matter of fact if someone gave me one, I would sell it and call Savage and have them make me one of their's from the Savage custom shop...
 
I believe he's trying to state that if a an example of the scout exists which has quality vastly exceding its competition, then it would be wise to pick it up. If you fully buy into the scout concept, or more correctly if you feel it suits your needs well, then the steyr scout is the best available. Other substitutes won't do all the different things as well as the steyr will. Some might meet the criteria but not have the feel and ease of use, as well as quality, of the steyr.

I don't think he's denouncing psuedo-scouts or even qualified substitute scouts, so much as he is suggesting that one would not be satisfied with 'second best', when the best clearly exists elsewhere (and maybe in temporary production at that).
 
444, I agree with you completely, and especially about the misuse of terminology. It's a pet peeve of mine as well. But I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that the Savage Scout could truly be called such because it did in fact meet the criteria. Here are the specs:

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm), with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).


The Savage scores on all these once you install a Ching sling. Neither stripper clip charging capability nor the built-in bipod are mandatory per the Scout Rifle Conference Criteria.
 
Why are we caring about this?

The scout rifle isn't a true military issue rifle, and Cooper isn't some customer we're having to satisfy. He has a bunch of rather rules on what he wants, which is fine for him. But I fail to see why anyone else would be that retentive unless they want a Cooper Scout to go along with their Keith No. 5. These just seem like rules laid down for the sake of laying rules down.

So unless the good Col. decides to actually justify or support his quip about "substitute scouts" being "a mistake," I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. I like my Aquilonia

Aquilonia5.jpg
 
"Why are we caring about this?"

Because the guy that started the thread asked the question.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, and am not trying to be rude: but, if you don't care, why did you post to his thread ? Just to have an excuse to post a picture of your own rifle ?
Again, I am just answering your own question.
This is the type of thing gun people talk about. It all doesn't have to be of vital importance. But, to some, it is interesting. Not everyone agrees, and there are other threads for them to enjoy.
 
"...what caused the good Colonel to make this comment?..." He's nuts. Entertaining, but he's nutzo. His 'my way or the highway' ideas are obsolete. His 'scout rifle' is another of his loony ideas. A PBI recce troopie needs a light weight, short barreled, select fire, weapon not a bolt action with a long eye relief scope.
"...on a No 1 Mk III Lee-Enfield rifle..." Check the headspace before you do anything else. Bolt heads for No. 1's are not marked, so if the headspace is bad, you'll need a handful to try with proper guages. Nothing else works. Gunparts has stripped bolt heads at $11.30 each. Gets expensive if the headspace is bad.
444, exactly. No point having these forums otherwise.
 
Methinks his "substitute scouts" comment amounts to "the Styer Scout is the best; don't bother with anything inferior." Elsewhere he has addressed the cost issue (amounting to "you only need one, so save up"), equivalents (to wit "a custom job will cost the same"), lesser options (basically "you get what you pay for"), and not-quite-scouts.

What many forget is: Cooper is a man wholly plunged into the topic of guns for far longer than most of us have been alive. There comes a point in studying a topic where you have deeply considered issues so much and so firmly come to reasonable conclusions that commentary simplifies to "the best option is X; just do it and don't fuss with other options." While rattling to those of us examining those options, it is a reasonable state of mind for someone to achieve.

Upshot: Cooper has deeply considered the general-purpose rifle issue. The answer is "buy a Steyr Scout". Further discussion, for him, is tiresomely repetetive; he has been down that path of reasoning a great many times with innumerable people ... so with all due respect in all directions, he has had his say on the matter; others may continue debate, but he's ready to move on.
 
He has repeatedly clarified that he gets NOTHING monetary from the Steyr Scout.
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I think the kick back comes in the form of ego, not in coin of the relm.

As the good Col. gets older more and more of his pontifications are kind of stupid.

I still agree with him 3/4 of the time.
 
A PBI recce troopie needs a light weight, short barreled, select fire, weapon not a bolt action with a long eye relief scope.
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And Cooper agrees: if you have a SPECIFIC application, get a tool that fits. The "scout rifle" is a GENERAL PURPOSE gun, not ideal for all applications but quite satisfactory for most (not all) uses. Yes, you may find something better for a given task, but its specialization necessarily reduces usability elsewhere.
 
Making a God out of a flesh-'n-blood guy can lead you down a path of failure.

If that's a scoped levergun, a bone stock AR, a rebuilt Mauser or a .22 Cricket,..... just make it work.

Do what works for you. Period.
 
I remember reading his accounts of the failure of the scout to take off,as I recall he basically called all those in the gun community who did not worship at the alter of Steyr idiots

He is a Steyr scout chauvanist due to his involvement in the oncept
 
Those of us that were reading Cooper's stuff back in the day when this idea first came up will remember that this whole concept/criteria were not something he just thought up one night over a couple drinks. He spent years discussing this topic and even had a number of get togethers with other serious shooters where they tested the various ideas of what a scout rifle should be. The scout rifle went thought several different prototypes.
I saw the final version of what he came up with hanging on the wall in his basement. This was before there was a commercially produced scout rifle.

I am going from memory here, so please correct me if I am wrong.
I thought the scout rifle was supposed to be the answer to the ever popular gun question of: "If you could only have one rifle, what would it be ?". The scout rifle was not designed to be a military rifle. It wasn't designed to be a hunting rifle. It wasn't designed to be a target rifle, a SHTF rifle, or a personal defense rifle. It was designed to do all that, and anything else a person might need from a rifle. Like any tool that is an attempt to do it all, it is a compromise. For each task that you might assign to the scout rifle, there is a specialty tool out there that can do a better job. But, that specialty tool isn't as good as a general purpose rifle. As was mentioned, the scout rifle was designed for the man who only owns one rifle.
For years, I didn't give much thought to the scout rifle. I even own a couple rifles with forward mounted scopes including a Finn M39, a Schmit-Ruben K31, and a Marlin lever gun in .444 Marlin. But, as I mentioned before, they arn't real scout rifles. When I took Gunsite's 250 Basic Defensive Handgun class, Cooper came to our class and had a short bull session. A couple people brought their Styer Scout rifles with them so they could get Cooper's autograph on the stock, under the bipod leg. This was the first time I ever played with one and the first time I ever considered the whole concept seriously. After giving the matter some thought I honestly think the concept is a great idea and I completely agree with his final design. I think that one rifle could do most anything you need a rifle to do and do it well. I think it could do MOST of the things I have ever needed a rifle to do. The one thing it couldn't do is longish range varmint hunting. The targets are too small and the range is too long. However, I think the Leupold Scout Scope is perfectly adequate for the VAST majority of real, practical rifle shooting. Big scopes have their place, but IMO people put way to much scope on their average hunting rifle. This has become pretty much a standard among American shooters and now is considered essential. Not long ago, people were doing the same hunting of the same animals with iron sights. The scout scope splits the difference.

We still have these very same discussions only today, a lot of it takes place on the internet. Most of the posts on these internet boards don't add anything to the discusssion and many don't even address the topic at hand. Most people see questions like this as being an excuse to brag about the guns they own or post pictures of the gun they own without bothering to further the discussion by justifying WHY they consider it to be the best choice for a general purpose rifle. Cooper on the other hand spent a lot of time considering what the perfect general purpose rifle should be. He tryed various prototypes and had other people he respected try them also. He discussed the matter with other people for years and actually built the rifles from their ideas and tried them.


"He is a Steyr scout chauvanist due to his involvement in the oncept"

That is absolutely not true. I ask him in person, what he thought of the Styer Scout rifle and he was not compeletely pleased with it. He feels it has come shortcomings. He may think it is the best scout rifle out there and he may think that is the scout rifle to buy, but to him it is definitely not perfect.
 
Cosmoline, I'm not losing any sleep over Col. Cooper's opinion, I was just seeking insight. I have to give the man credit for establishing the criteria for an idea that is, to me at least, intriguing. I think the concept is sound and if the criteria is met, I do believe we have a bonafide "scout rifle."

So if my Savage meets the criteria, then it's a real-deal scout rifle despite not being manufactured by Steyr, or so I've been led to believe. But I could be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure somebody will tell me and explain why and in the process I just may learn something. Which would be a good thing.

This whole topic is probably meaningless to most people even here on THR, and that's fine. But I know there are some other scout fans on this forum, and I thought it would be interesting to throw my questions out there for discussion.

BTW, I like your Mosin. It's funky in a cool way!
 
That is absolutely not true.
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From the derisive comments that he made to the gun community as a whole , "back in the day", for not embracing his baby.I have to disagree.
But i'm not getting into a pee pee match with someone over one of their friends again.
 
I wouldn't consider him one of my friends. I took a couple classes at Gunsite and met him a couple times. Both times, I was one of a group of people. That's it.
But, I remember back when the Styer rifle came out that he wasn't completely satisfied with it.
If I am not mistaken, this whole saga can be rehashed in Cooper's book:Gargantuan Gunsite Gosip.
 
For all that I think the Steyr is yougly, it has more of the desireable bells and whistles than the Savage.

Part of Cooper's deal is weight, so I don't think you can build up a .308 semi-auto with a scope and total at some seven pounds, ammo and sling included. He has said that his idea of a scout is a person who seeks to avoid any combat situation, so full-auto isn't part of his deal.

Cosmo's rifle can't be a Scout, simply because of the length, any other facet being ignored.

What Cooper basically said was, first, his idea of what a scout--the person--does. That's written, years back. It's a person in the boonies, alone, mostly checking out the lay of the land and finding out who else might be out there with him. Sneak and peek and go home. If a shot is to be taken, rapid target acquisition is a major part of the deal. And then, if it's against Bad Guys, shoot and scoot.

He then came up with desireable features for a general purpose rifle to be used by this scout. The forward mounting of the scope allows the rapid target acquisition, etc., etc.

So it's his idea and his parameters. "Substitute" scouts are about like calling a pig a chicken. Call it what you want, but that sucker won't cluck or lay eggs.

On the Scout, it's impossible that he could be wrong. Why? Simple: He defined the terminology and the design features. He got there first. That's why Chevy can't make a Mustang and Ford can't make a Camaro.

Someone might not like his ideas, but that's just part of our freedom to disagree. I prefer a conventionally mounted scope, and I prefer a longer barrel--and if that makes my rig over a meter in length, sobeit. But I don't call my .243 carbine a Scout, although it meets many of the design features, including weight and length.

So dream up your own criteria. Name it as you wish. Heck, paint it camo and name it "Sneaky Snake"; I have no copyright on that. :D

I just don't see the point in namecalling at Cooper. All anybody's gotta do is do something better.

:), Art
 
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