Col. Cooper & "Substitute Scouts"

[carebear]

Oleg,

By the extant definition it looks too long, probably too heavy and needs the optic moved forward. Also BUI are "desirable but not necessary". It really doesn't meet any of the criteria I can see except it is magazine-fed and .308.

That is a suppressed precision rifle, not a "general purpose" rifle in any way, thus "Scout" does not apply. What it does, it does very well, but there's no reason to call it something it isn't.

 

[Gordon]

When we stuck M-14 mags on the early Remington scouts, they no longer made the weight 'requirements' and the Col didn't think they were 'real scouts' !

 

[carebear]

Was that with 20's? Cause you could use 5 or 10 rounders to get the blessing then load up the 20's outside the wire.

 

[ctdonath]

So if it's not a STEYR it Dung?

Did I say that? NO. :banghead:

The term "scout rifle", like any commonly defined term, has a given meaning. If the word/phrase is applied to something strikingly outside that meaning, it does nothing useful, only confusing the issue. A person saying "I'll call it a 'scout rifle' if I want to" only serves to stroke that person's ego, and makes any discussion of "scout rifle" pointless.

Even now, on this thread, with your comments, any discussion of the term "scout rifle" falls down precisely because you won't accept the standard definition, and when this problem (yes, it's a problem) is pointed out, you state non-sequitor conclusions and throw the discussion far off track.

 

[dm1333]

My substitute Scout is coming along nicely!

I love mine. M38 with a 2X scope on a Darrells Mount. I haven't put it in a synthetic stock yet or bought a Ching Sling but those are coming in the near future. I don't know why Mr. Cooper would say those things except that he gets paid to voice his opinion and he may be just a little too set in his ways. My take on it is that I agree with about 60% of what he says, but since it is my money paying for my guns I can feel free to love my 9MM and to buy the KB King of Tupperware(Glock 27) and love that gun too.

I also agree with Thereisnospoon, I like to tinker. Buying an out of the box scout rifle would not nearly be as satisfying to me as it has been to play with that M38.

 

[ctdonath]

There's a difference between a "Cooper Scout" and a "scout rifle." The phrase "scout rifle" includes many rifles Cooper wouldn't like, but that's the way it is. ... Cooper was not the first to think of putting a forward mounted scope on a rifle.

Cooper defined the term "scout rifle". Yes there are rifles which fit that he won't like ... they're still "scout rifles" by his definition. There is no definition (show me if I'm wrong) of a "Cooper scout".

And, by Cooper's definition of "scout rifle", scopes are optional.

If you're going to talk about something that doesn't fit the formal definition of "scout rifle", please use another term and supply a clear definition. Flippant modification of a definition of a generally accepted term serves no useful purpose.

 

[odysseus]

Some people don't consider the m14/m1a "scout" set-up to be truly a Scout rifle, but I am pretty much in the belief it is a great one. So it is pseudo-scout then, but I am sure a scout would find it beneficial.

 

[ctdonath]

Looks like an ideal scout to me, except for the blind magazine. Replace that with a detachable magazine and it fits all the Cooper requirements (light, chambered in 308, fast to use).

Is it 1m long or less? weighs 3kg or less? has iron sights (if only as backup)? forward-mounted fixed-magnification low-power scope (if any scope at all)? otherwise fits Cooper's definition if "no" on any of these, it may very well be a fine rifle indeed (and is next on my list after an M4LE), but it is not a "scout rifle". You may choose to call it a "scout rifle", but then we are not using the same definition and thus cannot effectively use the term.

 

[JohnKSa]

Cooper's concept, Cooper's rules.

The rules come with the concept.

If you don't like the rules, then maybe you should name your concept rifle something else.

 

[freedomlover]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. I've come to the conclusion that when the Guru spoke of "substitute scouts," he didn't mean non-Steyr rifles, but rather those which did NOT meet all the criteria but were nevertheless being called "scouts," thus cheapening the term somewhat. (The "flippant modification of a term" that ctdonath mentioned.) I do know it burns the Colonel up when somebody calls a .223 ANYTHING a scout rifle...and it's his term, after all.

Cooper's concept, Cooper's rules.

The rules come with the concept.

If you don't like the rules, then maybe you should name your concept rifle something else.

JohnKSa, you and ctdonath are 100% correct IMO--and just because a manufacturer calls a rifle a "scout rifle" sho' 'nuff don't make it one...

I do believe the Savage Scout with the addition of a Ching sling meets ALL the criteria and is therefore one of the very few out-of-the-box, real-deal scout rifles. And the only one, to my knowledge, that costs less than a grand MSRP. Maybe not as high quality as a Steyr, but it'll do for now.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Apologies...

The term "scout rifle", like any commonly defined term, has a given meaning. If the word/phrase is applied to something strikingly outside that meaning, it does nothing useful, only confusing the issue. A person saying "I'll call it a 'scout rifle' if I want to" only serves to stroke that person's ego, and makes any discussion of "scout rifle" pointless.

Even now, on this thread, with your comments, any discussion of the term "scout rifle" falls down precisely because you won't accept the standard definition, and when this problem (yes, it's a problem) is pointed out, you state non-sequitor conclusions and throw the discussion far off track.

Obviously, I misunderstood your comments. However, I have been saying all along that the rifle I BUILT meets ALL the criteria Cooper set forward, minus the back-up irons and bipod. So I agree that Cooper set the definition and that's what I went by. Where I have failed to accept the standard definition? Also, I think that forward mounted telescopic sight is a must, not an option.

I just think gun snobbery is lame, not insinuating that you are a gun snob. There are those who would say that ONLY a STEYR rifle fits the bill, and I think that is also inaccurate, and that is what I originally thought your comments were intended to communicate.

OFF TOPIC: HOW BOUT THEM STEELERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Euclidean]

Chevy can't make a Mustang cause Chevy would get SUED for trademark infringement. Otherwise, yes Chevy could make a Mustang and do unholy things to the design.

Like make it run reliably?

Just a little fun... too much venom in this thread!

 

[ctdonath]

Awright, that's a lot of arguing over a term without addressing the originator's terms.

The problem for which the scout rifle was designed:

"a general-purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target."

And the technical specifications:

Scout rifle

An optimized general-purpose rifle designed by Jeff Cooper.
Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm), with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

(Mea culpa if any of my prior comments are, in this light, erronious.)

Further scout rifle taxonomy here.

 

[MinScout]

As stated before, Cooper didn't just pull these Scout Rifle parameters out of his rear end one day. It came from long years of experience and careful study. I have a Scout-type rifle built on a Mauser action, it is a very servicable tool as is, but it's not yet a true Scout, being about a pound too heavy and not having a ching sling. I think that most of these "substitiute Scouts" lack "handiness" which is Cooper's first requirement of any rifle. The closer we can come to Cooper's very thought out Scout-Rifle requirements, I think the more satisfied we'll be with the end result.

 

[grendelbane]

Mildly OT, but I showed my .50 Beowulf to a fellow the other day, and he described it as a "Thumper".

I didn't argue, and I don't know if he had ever heard of Cooper's "Thumper" concept, or not.

I find many of the economy pseudo-scouts to be interesting, even if they don't quite match Cooper's original specifications. Words do have meanings, but some times these meanings can change over the years. Firearms clones make this process even more aggravating. I love the .45 Auto pistol that I put together on the Doublestar frame, but what should I call it? 1911 clone sounds silly, it is not truly a Gov't model, (even though the slide is a Colt Gov't model slide.), most of the time I end up calling it old slabsides.

 

[Legionnaire]

Enjoyed reading the thread, all; thanks.

To sum up then, the "Scout" is Cooper's preferred operationalization of the "general purpose" rifle, correct? By these definitions, a Remington Model Seven in .308 with a 2-7X compact scope in the standard position qualifies as a GP rifle, but not a Scout. On the other hand, a Marlin 1894 in .44mag with a forward-mounted scope and backup iron sights might not even qualify as a GP rifle due to its limited ballistics; most here can probably shoot more accurately at longer ranges than the .44mag is capable of (noting that the defining quality in Cooper's GP definition includes the ability of the shooter in addition to the cartidge's ability to take 200 kilo game).

I've had opportunity to shoot a Steyr Scout, and it was a fine firearm. But not for me. Much as I like the concept of a "GP" rifle, I find that I'm personally more interested in having a collection of more specialized tools. I have both rifles listed above (plus others), and I consider both "general purpose" for my needs. The .44 is a great woods rifle, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to go after something weighing 200 kilos with it! I like the forward mounted scope on the Marlin, but the Seven, with its conventionally mounted scope, also works fine for its intended purposes.

I liked 444's earlier characterization that the Scout was Cooper's answer to the question, "What rifle, if I can have only one?" I like that. But I also like having more than one!

Thanks again, all. Thoroughly enjoyed the thread.

 

[smince]

.I do know it burns the Colonel up when somebody calls a .223 ANYTHING a scout rifle...and it's his term, after all.

I thought the .223 was designated the "Poodle Scout"

 

[carebear]

As far as a "Thumper" goes I always thought the .45 WinMag LeMag conversion of the M1 Carbine met most of the criteria. I would think the Ruger .44 Mag Deer-whatever semiauto is pretty close also. Do it in the Casull and it might be better.

 

[Gordon]

The Col thought much of the Lemag .45 win mag conversion "if they can get it to work reliably".He thought it was a great 'thumper'!

 

[Preacherman]

Interesting to read all the opinions here. I've owned a Steyr Scout (took it to Thunder Ranch for the General Purpose Rifle course, and did well with it), but I eventually sold it due to financial constraints. Right now I have three "pseudo-Scouts":

- A Lee-Enfield, Ishapore production, in 7.62x51mm., converted by ScoutMan308 with a synthetic stock, forward scope mount, etc.;

- A Savage Scout in .308, fitted with an aftermarket trigger;

- A Marlin 336 with forward scope mount.

None of them fit all of the good Colonel's criteria, but they all shoot passing well, make weight and length limits, and keep me happy.

 

[BigG]

The Steyr version is balanced like a shotgun. You can swing it up to your shoulder and touch the trigger and your bullet will find the target. It's something you have to experience because to look at it, I'll admit it ain't much, but to use it will be to realize its virtues.

I would guess the nearest thing in handling and probably what Cooper was going for would be a best quality British double rifle with forward mounted scope. If you think a Steyr is cost prohibitive, don't look at one of those.

For all the little bells and whistles on the Steyr, you will have to pay some pretty good beans to duplicate it with another gun modified to suit. JMTC

 

[Fred Fuller]

My cobbled-together 7.62X51 19" barreled Burris forward mounted 2X scope straight bolt handled backup ironsighted stripper clip fed non-bipodded pseudoscout is built on a Mauser 98 action made by Steyr.

So there.

lpl/nc

 

[freedomlover]

Lee, how do you like your Steyr? I've got an old Steyr 12/61 myself that I thought about doing the same thing to. Just never got around to it...

 

[flatdog]

Preacherman,

Could you please tell me what after market trigger you installed on your Savage, and your opinion of it. Mine needs a better trigger also.

Thanks.

flatdog

 

[Correia]

I'm going to make a 7 pound, semi-auto, SBR, suppressed .308. I'll call it the Squat. (no seriously, I am). The non-suppressed version will be the Snout. Then I don't have to worry about messing around with anybody else's terms.