Col. Cooper & "Substitute Scouts"

[Cosmoline]

"Why are we caring about this?"

Because the guy that started the thread asked the question.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, and am not trying to be rude: but, if you don't care, why did you post to his thread ? Just to have an excuse to post a picture of your own rifle ?

THE QUESTION IS ABOUT COL COOPERS COMMENT ON SUBSTITUTE SCOUTS, 444. I have such a rifle, and I like it. I don't see why Cooper's rules should control what is an "official scout rifle," esp. since he hasn't bothered to explain why the "substitute scouts" are no good. Comprende?

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmoline, I'm not losing any sleep over Col. Cooper's opinion, I was just seeking insight. I have to give the man credit for establishing the criteria for an idea that is, to me at least, intriguing. I think the concept is sound and if the criteria is met, I do believe we have a bonafide "scout rifle."

I know, my question "why are we caring" was addressed to the rifle owning public in general, not people in the thread. There seems to be a certain cadre of folks, including apparently Cooper himself, who have a very restrictive view about how the scout concept should be fleshed out. I think Cooper's ideas are interesting, but I view them as the beginning of the process not the end. In other words, I think it's great to experiment and make a scout rifle that works best for you.

Cosmo's rifle can't be a Scout, simply because of the length, any other facet being ignored.

But why does Cooper's length requirement control? Mine isn't a COOPER scout rifle, but it's still a scout rifle. There's no trademark on the name to my knowledge.

That's why Chevy can't make a Mustang and Ford can't make a Camaro.

Chevy can't make a Mustang cause Chevy would get SUED for trademark infringement. Otherwise, yes Chevy could make a Mustang and do unholy things to the design.

 

[444]

The only reason I know is because he is credited with coming up with the whole concept to begin with.

I need to dig out that book and read again how he came up with the ideas he came up with. I for one don't see why something like an FR8 wouldn't fill the role.
I have to say that I think the Styer Scout rifle is very nice. I would like to have one. If I didn't have anything else to spend my money on, I would seriously consider buying one. That being said, these milsurp rifles seem to fit the mold pretty damn well if you ask me. For that matter, a lever action rifle with a forward mounted scope is a pretty handy piece of gear also. The problem with the lever gun in the scout rifle concept is the cartridge it fires. The .30-30 type cartridges have serious limited practical ranges.

Another aspect of this thing that I find interesting is the use of the red dot optic. These wern't around back when Cooper came up with this, like they are now. I think an Aimpoint ML3 would do most of what a Scout Scope would do and in some aspects, more.

 

[Roudy]

Isn't this thread "Much ado sbout nothing?" Rather than be bound by technicalities and specifications look at the concept and performance. If an $85 reworked Ishapore Enfield functions and performs like a $1000 Steyr Scout, who cares? Certainly not the target.

 

[Logan5]

Cooper's original comment, which I assume prompted this thread was:

Steyr Mannlicher has now got into trouble with export to Iran by selling those people large numbers of 50 caliber "Sporting" rifles. Large corporations are naturally more anxious to market in large numbers rather than to individual sportsmen, and the superb Scout series is pretty much a one man-one gun proposition. Hence you are advised to get your personal Scout before it gets sanctioned off the counter. I got mine (several). Go thou and do likewise. Substitute scouts are a mistake.

The idea here is, Steyr Mannlicher is now in shallow waters with the U.S. government, and if you want a scout rifle as originally designed and brought to market through Steyr, buy one now, as Steyr/Iran will shortly pull a Clinton/Norinco and your number one choice in terms of availability will be the number 2 product, the number 3 product, or a custom build, with the actual Steyr Scout gone forever. This seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable caution.

 

[Cosmoline]

That makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for that context.

 

[buzz meeks]

There's lots of ways to skin Cooper's cat. I for one don't like the Steyr. If I was going to lay down that sort of money (and some day I will) I would go with Jim Brockman's rendition. Until then, it's important to remember that Cooper identified many ancestors along the way to the Steyr Scout- the Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine, the Winchester 94, the Enfield jungle carbine. His own early Scout was based on a Remington 600. All of which point to a concept rather than an exact, tangible product. My own choice right now- the gun I carry when I am literally scouting for elk and deer all spring and summer long- is a Marlin 336 with aperture sight. I give up range and power but retain the handiness and quick target acquisition that are at the epicenter of the scout criteria. Cooper's criteria are important but ultimately the Scout concept is largely about subjective feel. Cooper made a study of certain rifles that were powerful enough but also light and portable and fast-handling like an upland game gun. I think some of the hardware discussions- forward mounted scope or no, appropriate chamberings, retail price, bipod or no- miss the point.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Tinkerers unite!

I think part of the issue here is that there are those among THR and other internet forums that are tinkerers...I am one of them. I enjoy using DuraCoat, Krylon, hammers, screwdrivers, wood working tools, etc. (even though I am a "Master" at none of these things). I enjoy "personalizing" some of my firearms, just for the fun of it.

Some of my firearms are off limits, especially those that I depend on for home defense or personal carry, they are pretty stock, except maybe for a paint job to a rather basic stock or something like that.

I have seen and admired many of the high dollar rifles and custom jobs many here on THR own. Building a "Scout Rifle" is one of the things that intrigued me most. AS I said in my previous post, I have handled a few and spent a day shooting a buddies Steyr Scout rifle. It was ok, but I really didn't like it, but I LOVED the concept.

So I went in search of something that would fit the criteria, that I liked better. No one made one (I only recently learned that Savage had one available from their custom shop...several have popped up for sale now and then, but I was always a day late or a dollar short!). Since I could not find/buy one I decided to build one. I based it on Coopers creiteria and it turned out to be a good shooter and a fine hunting partner.

If it fits all the criteria to the letter (except for the built in Bipod, which IIRC is optional), EXCEPT for the STEYR nameplate...is a "Scout Rifle" or not?

 

[Old Fuff]

I have the pleasure, and have gained many benefits from knowing Jeff Cooper. Over the years I have paid attention to his insightful comments about certain uses vs. designs of both rifles and pistols. He once told me that a person’s opinion about something would likely be as valid as their experience and knowledge of the subject, and their willingness to stand up and defend their position in debate against others with a different point of view. It was his belief that the best ideas would be those that survived the test of incisive examination.

My personal belief is that we all have brains, and should be able to pick and choose between different concepts to come up with whatever is best suited for one's personal situation. So using my own intellect and with guidance from a number of authorities on a given subject, I have often come to the conclusion that I will do (whatever) because it's the best way for me. If others approach the matter from another direction and choose something different it bothers me not at all. If I have a right to do it "my way" they have the right to do the same. What results may be varied, but one is not necessarily better then the other(s).

Those that have read my previous posts on various subjects should be aware by now that I often don't hold the majority view. This bothers me not one bit. I am totally secure in thinking that while I have chosen the right course, others have an equal right to believe the same concerning whatever position they hold. I do not impose my views on others, and accept only that which I want to. Others should do exactly the same.

So if someone wants a Scout Rifle, put together or buy whatever you think is best. What ever it is, if it works for you it works, and nothing else matters. It would be a rather dull world if we only had one rifle, one shotgun, one revolver, one pistol…

 

[Art Eatman]

t.i.n.s., looks like it to me. Purtier'n a Steyr, for sure.

Art

 

[SpookyPistolero]

I think it was someone on this forum who posted pics of one they had that was made by Yost. It was one slick looking rifle, for sure. The irons were particularly appealing, if I recall.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Range Time...

I had some range time today and decided to take the PseudoSCout Rifle with me just for grins and giggles. I fired some handloads I had worked up only to be sorrowfully disappointed. Then I grabbed a box of 150gr Nosler BT ammunition made by a guy here in Alabama called, suprisingly anough, Alabama Ammo. Went through the whole box, putting three rounds into nice little clusters at 50 meters (I was too lazy to shoot 100 today ).

BTW, I decided to add back-up irons today and will call the gunsmith monday to line it up.

 

[MCgunner]

I never really understood the scout thing. What's the deal about a long eye relief, low power scope? I rather like a standard rifle with a 2x7 or 2x10 on it for all around hunting. I am quicker with a regular scope set on a low power and I can zoom it when I need to. To me, the scout is the answer to a question that never got asked. I just don't see the advantage in it. But, what the heck different strokes for different folks. Ain't for me, though.

 

[carebear]

The long eye relief, low power scope allows for more easily keeping both eyes open while shooting. Again this goes back to Cooper's idea of the scout as operating more-or-less alone behind enemy lines. You want to be shooting and moving, not losing half your overall field of view and situational awareness while squinting though a standard scope.

Also he felt it led to a more natural balance and easier carrying, as well as allowing unrestricted ejection and stripper clip reloads. It isn't a "hunting rifle", it is a general purpose rifle that can be functional for hunting. Cooper would agree with you that there are better rifles and scope locations for hunting.

"Scout" isn't a registered trademark, but, no matter the subject, in a discussion or argument you have to agree on a definition of the terms involved to get anywhere. Using Cooper's criteria as a starting point (again, he popularized the term and the concept for the "general purpose rifle") is as good a definition, in its context, as any and better than most.

If you call your rifle a "scout" then you are kinda tacitly agreeing to using the extant definition (Cooper's) of the concept. Otherwise, call it something else and/or come up with your own criteria for a basis of discussion.

It's like arguing Constitutional issues with a "living document" believer. The word "Constitution" doesn't mean the same thing to either of you.

 

[ctdonath]

I don't see why Cooper's rules should control what is an "official scout rifle," esp. since he hasn't bothered to explain why the "substitute scouts" are no good.

Cooper is the one that coined the term and definition, and spent a great deal of time/effort, and organized that of others, to work out that term & definition. A great many people use that term & definition with specificity. For someone to come along and relatively flippantly say "I'll use the term but with my own definition" is just plain obnoxious to informed conversation, obfuscating the discussion and rendering the phrase useless.

Cooper has spent much ink over many years detailing the pros & cons of "substitute scouts" (under various terms), explaining the relevance of deviations from definition & associated quality; he has indeed bothered to explain. That he does not include all that discussion as a footnote to an offhand reference in a monthly newsletter consisting of concise pontifications is not a failing on his part.

 

[ctdonath]

There's no trademark on the name to my knowledge.

Truly a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but calling dung a rose does not make for successful conversation.

 

[MCgunner]

The long eye relief, low power scope allows for more easily keeping both eyes open while shooting. Again this goes back to Cooper's idea of the scout as operating more-or-less alone behind enemy lines. You want to be shooting and moving, not losing half your overall field of view and situational awareness while squinting though a standard scope.

Also he felt it led to a more natural balance and easier carrying, as well as allowing unrestricted ejection and stripper clip reloads. It isn't a "hunting rifle", it is a general purpose rifle that can be functional for hunting. Cooper would agree with you that there are better rifles and scope locations for hunting.

Ah, thank you! That quite explains it to me. I'm not interested in "tactical" and being nearly blind in my off eye means I have no concept of vision in both eyes, well, at least not good vision. So, it sorta went over my head I guess. Now, at least I know where the Scout thing is coming from.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Dung heap

Truly a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but calling dung a rose does not make for successful conversation.

So if it's not a STEYR it Dung? or if it doesn't match the definition to the T it is dung?

Your reply sounded very "Cooperish"...

 

[carebear]

No, not dung.

What he's saying is the same as what I was saying. You can't discuss an item until you first agree on a definition of the item to use. Otherwise you end up talking past each other with a lot of "that's not what I meant" moments.

If you say "This is a 'scout rifle'". You are tacitly implying there is an abstract agreed upon definition of the term "scout rifle". The only extant completely fleshed out and generally known definition (list of explicit criteria) of "scout rifle" out there is Col. Cooper's. Therefore "scout rifle" can default to that definition for discussion and we will be on the same sheet of music.

If you have a different definition, you need to lay it out in detail so we can then use that one for discussion. Otherwise you will be using your definition while I (for example) am using Cooper's (cause it's the only one I know ).

That's where "pseudo-scout" comes in handy. It immediately implies a particular rifle has some characteristics of the "scout rifle" definition but that there are differences. Makes it easy to identify and discuss just the differences (OAL, caliber, weight, what have you), while the common elements are taken as a given (say, forward scope position and BUI).

 

[smince]

I am currently reading the Colonel's newest book "C Stories". In it he admits that both the Steyr Scout and the 1911 fall way short of perfection. I know this may surprise some of you.

I have a Pseudo-Scout built on a 1903 action (30-06, naturally). Synthetic stock, 20" barrel, original Burris Scout Scope. Reserve iron sights. Doesn't make length and weighs 6.75lbs. Not a true Scout, but in corresponding with Col. Cooper he complimented my rifle, and told me it should do anything I would need to do with a rifle. And so far, it has.

 

[Cosmoline]

Cooper is the one that coined the term and definition, and spent a great deal of time/effort, and organized that of others, to work out that term & definition. A great many people use that term & definition with specificity. For someone to come along and relatively flippantly say "I'll use the term but with my own definition" is just plain obnoxious to informed conversation, obfuscating the discussion and rendering the phrase useless.

There's a difference between a "Cooper Scout" and a "scout rifle." The phrase "scout rifle" includes many rifles Cooper wouldn't like, but that's the way it is.

Imagine if Elmer Keith had declared that only his No. 5 was a true custom Colt SAA. All other attempts to customize a No. 5 were poor substitutes for his No. 5, and should be avoided because he put a lot of time and thought into developing the No. 5. It would be absurd, of course. Likewise, the Cooper scout is not the end all and be all of the scout rifle theory--just one expression of it.

Cooper was not the first to think of putting a forward mounted scope on a rifle. It was done to Mausers during WWII and Bubba has been doing it to old military rifles for a long time.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I thought that's what I said...

If you say "This is a 'scout rifle'". You are tacitly implying there is an abstract agreed upon definition of the term "scout rifle". The only extant completely fleshed out and generally known definition (list of explicit criteria) of "scout rifle" out there is Col. Cooper's. Therefore "scout rifle" can default to that definition for discussion and we will be on the same sheet of music.

...back in Post #33.

We can continue to go on about this, but I believe most agree that Cooper came up with the criteria and credit him with it. However, that DOES NOT mean he holds the patent and we ALL agree he himself thinks the STEYR, while the closest to the mark, is not perfect.

Cosmoline,

I love your MN, even though it is long and heany, I bet it is one heck of a shooter...

 

[Gordon]

I took the 250 and 350 courses at The American Pistol Institute with Chuck Taylor and Clint Smith as range masters.Took a rifle course too, although I used an HK91, under the Col. He had a 600 Remington with a forward mounted 2x Leupold handgun scope on Buehler mounts that he was touting as a better all round solution to rifle problems than a 'battle rifle' or 'long range precision ' rifle. With that in mind HE demonstrated hitting skeet with his and we all went back to California hopped up on the concept. About that time Chet Brown ,of Brown Precision fiberglass stock fame,who with Lee Six (Both of San Jose Calif.) invented the modern fiberglass stock, was really gearing up making Remington Ultra lites.
I had Chet make me up a 600 Rem .308 with an 18" soda straw barrel , a short 'Mohawk' style stock , and a pillar mount custom aluminum "Scout" mount.The Leupold 2xEER was the only viable scope for this application at the time. The Ching sling hadn't been invented yet but a short Harris Bipod on the reinforded front swivel post with a Brownell's Latigo sling (I believe) had the weight within the proscribed limit. I shot this rifle in Practical rifle matches and hunted extensively with it , and found it lacking in both areas. HOWEVER it was the best thing to pack around in the extensive trekking I used to do in those years and COULD do all things asked of a highpower rifle, which was the original idea!:banghead:
I had that rifle stolen in the early 80s so I had to have better! This time I had Chet (who was getting pretty big an operation to run out of his home garage in residential SJ!) make me a newfangled Kevlar stocked 600 with turned action and 16" barrel, Magna ported, and with stripper clip cuts machined in the reciever for 5 round GI clips. I had a custom rudimentary folding rear ghost ring dove tailed into the rear reciever bridge and the whole shooting match Metalifed and Woodland brown camo painted including the scope ect. This weighed right at 5 pounds without Bipod and sling! I carried this gun for 20 years and it worked wonderfully for those moments when you would not have had a rifle otherwise
When I see the Col. this April, possibly for the last time, I will thank him for teaching me to use 2 hands on a pistol, to watch the front sight, and inventing the Scout Rifle(even though a forward mounted scope isn't THAT great an idea on a rifle under some lighting conditions!!!).

 

[Oleg Volk]

Looks like an ideal scout to me, except for the blind magazine. Replace that with a detachable magazine and it fits all the Cooper requirements (light, chambered in 308, fast to use).

 

[smince]

Cooper was not the first to think of putting a forward mounted scope on a rifle. It was done to Mausers during WWII and Bubba has been doing it to old military rifles for a long time.

Right. And Col. Cooper will be the first to tell you that "a forward-mounted scope does not a Scout make".

It is a sum of all its parts. The guns with out EVERYTHING are pseudo-scouts.