00 Buck from a 12 Ga. has to be fired from " almost contact distance " to be a reasonably good stopper
The word was reliable, and it's accurate. Don't pretend to quote me while changing what I've actually said.
00 Buck from a 12 Ga. has to be fired from " almost contact distance " to be a reasonably good stopper
The word was reliable, and it's accurate. Don't pretend to quote me while changing what I've actually said.
#1 buckshot is a good compromise. It may be the best overall.#4 buckshot has a mixed reputation. It loses energy fast! But it has much better pattern density than 00 buck and a lesser danger radius.
If you need tighter than normal patterning, look at Hornady Varmint Express #4 buck shells. http://www.hornady.com/store/12-Ga-VX-4-Buckshot/ These use the VersaTite wad, which is the same patent as Federal's Flite Control.
An AR or pistol caliber carbine will be at least as effective up close with only 3-5 ft lbs of recoil and work much better at longer ranges.
I don't see them making a comeback anymore than a Brown Bess musket for personal protection unless everything else is banned.
A pistol caliber carbine is a poor choice over a shotgun. Pistol calibers are not man stoppers. Buckshot to the chest is pretty much lights out. Massive shock to the CNS.
goon said:If you hit the CNS.
he was hit at about the hairline according to how I heard it so it went over the skull and ended in the neck somewhere , I still can't believe the story but someone showed me pics of it , still cant believe it but stranger things have happenedJust as in the post above mine that I asked some detailed info on to make sense of it I'd appreciate hearing if you knew if this fellow that you heard about that was hit by an AK-47 round in the head was struck at about the hairline and the bullet circled around his noggin and ended up in his neck ( somewhat believable ) or was hit much further down , say between the eyes, it then circled, ended up in his neck and he laughed about it ( not so believable ). Knowing the actual facts could / would make a huge difference.
two gun Charlie, thanks the info.he was hit at about the hairline according to how I heard it so it went over the skull and ended in the neck somewhere , I still can't believe the story but someone showed me pics of it , still cant believe it but stranger things have happened
point i am making is that in combat it comes down to more than just the gun , calibre and training , there is literally thousands of other factors that also play a role , most of which we don't even think about let alone control
two gun Charlie, thanks the info.
So after 9 pages, have we come to the point of critical mass yet?
Smart girl. That's level 1 of the realization. By the time she's about 12 she would probably add ...And that's fine. It's just those who insist that what THEY like is the only reasonable choice, and if YOU don't like what THEY like, YOU are an id!ot. Those are the people you mostly want to avoid in life...9) And, as my daughter said when she was about 8, different people like different things.
Hearing wise, I do not find shotgun blasts to be nearly as punishing as a 16" barrel .223. The much sharper crack of the rifle round is MUCH more painful than the lower boom of the shotgun. I've shot waaaay too many rounds of rifle, shotgun, and to a lesser extent, handguns in my life without ear protection back in the day (fortunately I'm not seeing any resulting hearing-related issues yet), and the shotguns are much milder to my ears. Even less than a 9mm.One thing in favor of the pistol caliber carbine is that it'll likely be the least loud. A shotgun or 5.56 fired indoors is going to disorient the person firing it more than a 9mm Beretta Storm. The extra barrel length will also add some authority to the round.
I'm sure the Romans were having the same debate in Latin and didn't reach a conclusion either. And so it goes ......So after 9 pages, have we come to the point of critical mass yet?
To sum up the 9 pages,
1) Different tools are better suited different specific scenarios
2) Different tools offer different flexibility,
3) Even in a single geographic location, such as HD, different scenarios can happen,
4) Neither is, by default, more effective until you know the scenario/circumstances,
5) The use of either doesn't guarantee squat,
6) The use of either is better than some other tools and better than nothing,
7) The rise in popularity of AR type weapons has acquired market share from shot guns for HD,
8) The shotgun now, is no less effective than it was 20+ years ago, and arguably more effective as improvements have been made in both gun and ammo,
9) And, as my daughter said when she was about 8, different people like different things.
One thing in favor of the pistol caliber carbine is that it'll likely be the least loud. A shotgun or 5.56 fired indoors is going to disorient the person firing it more than a 9mm Beretta Storm. The extra barrel length will also add some authority to the round.
.I should also mention that once all the AR's are banned or have to be loaded from the top like in CA, the shotgun owners will be sitting there with a big grin
NO. You will get hydrostatic shock as well. You just need to hit COM>If you hit the CNS.
One thing in favor of the pistol caliber carbine is that it'll likely be the least loud. A shotgun or 5.56 fired indoors is going to disorient the person firing it more than a 9mm Beretta Storm. The extra barrel length will also add some authority to the round.
Really though, any of them will work plenty well enough.
Pistol caliber carbines used by SWAT?For HD I think a reliable handgun with a light mounted is the best option, at least for inside the home. Take a look at your home from the inside. What is the maximum distance you can even have the visibility to take a shot? Any shooting that is going to happen will likely be at very short range and "jump off" in the blink of an eye.Also a handgun is much easier to manage when doing secondary tasks like locking, opening, or closing doors, smashing a window to make an escape, using the phone, performing self-aid or buddy aid, etc. The handgun is also easily hidden when not in use due to its size. The pistol caliber carbine is a terrific option- especially at these typically shorter distances. Remember that they served just fine in the hands of our special ops and SWAT teams (and still do in some cases) for a long time. Yes, they are next to worthless for longer distance engagements, which aren't typical of HD scenarios unless you live "in the sticks"- in which case something like an AR would be preferred. A shotgun generally requires 2 functioning hands/arms to operate efficiently- a handgun, and to a certain degree a pistol carb, or possibly even the AR, someone with moderate skills could produce effective fire with an injured or otherwise occupied hand/arm.
mboylan said:NO. You will get hydrostatic shock as well. You just need to hit COM