conceal in church

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mljdeckard: Legalities aside for the sake of argument, I thought you were saying that "though you felt naked (without your gun) for those three hours" ,as evidence of your faith in God you willingly "laid down your arms" during your time of worship as a sacrificial gesture, trusting Him to keep you from harm and danger. I used the seatbelt analogy to pose the question that if you can trust Him to protect you in church unarmed ,can you trust Him to protect you in your car unbelted? But, now addressing the legalities in the matter- because no one is suggesting that anybody should be a law-breaker (I spent thirty years helping to enforce the law before my retirement), if we really have faith in God to protect us from harm and danger, why carry a gun at all, even in those places where it is legal to do so? I don't think God's loving arms are unwrapped as we exit the doors of our church.

I'm not trying to argue or even disagree with you. I guess what I'm trying to say is that God expects us to use common sense in our everyday lives and, because His word has taught us that the world is full of evil and violent men, He probably expects us to to defend ourselves and our family and loved ones in the best way we can, at all times and places, even in our sanctuaries of worship. Whenever it's legal, of course. :)
 
Here nobody ordinary citzen carry guns. Tere are no terrorists. Islamics are speacefull. Only fev Hell Angles, drug dealers and criminals are shooting aech other. I don´t care what they are doing. My contry is very good place me, my family and every body ordinary citizen to live. Belive it. If don´t, come and see.
 
I never said that making the gesture comes with a promise of safety. Being faithful means that you surrender to higher authority. If I didn't believe in that authority, I wouldn't be in church at all.

I also said that when I live in AZ, I will carry anyway.
 
Life in Finland

KI.W.,
Congratulations. I have no reason to doubt you about Finland. The situation is a whole lot very much distressingly real and scary different in USA, Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Sudan (Darfur), Nigeria, etc.

Each of our countries has made a variety of societal and governmental decisions on how to deal with our realities of crime, terrorism, cultural and ethnic conflict, violence and evil. Our choices on firearms are only part of the set of decisions. And, I dare say, in all of these countries, there are varied opinions among the populace about whether the current official, governmental, legal decisions are best, or even right. My own country of USA seems to have one of the best environments in the world for freely expressing such disagreements and working in a non-violent way to discuss, reconcile, and reconsider.

Thanks for the invitation, but I think I'll stay here. Besides, you folks are a whole lot closer to the Arctic Circle than my US. southernboy roots ever want me to be. Heck, I'm not even big on going to the northernmost States here in my own country. Too dang cold!


Craig
 
I never made it to Finland, but I lived two years in Denmark, where I saw PLENTY of violence. The muslims were FAR from peaceful. And the bikers stole some rocket launchers from a weapon warehouse in Sweden and put one through the window of a rival biker HQ TWO BLOCKS FROM MY APARTMENT.

Europe in general has a higher victimization rate than America. You are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime there.
 
Hey Craig VA, if you want a taste of the Arctic Circle without having to go there, come on up to Ohio today-it's pretty frigid right now.

I liked your point regarding how different cultures and countries make gun regulation decisions differently. Thank God for America! Our wonderful country is the last bastion of real freedom left in this old world.
 
Mr mljdeckard, i shall to tell you something. I have been many times in USA. My farher was born Telluride Colorado. My sister lives in Florida. Her family has no guns. Thre are many Finns, no guns too.You have never been in Finland. Muslims here in Finland are truly spacefull. We have no law for terrorism. If there is, i have never heard. I know many bad things from USA, but it is your own bisness. Stop to bark my country. I will to live thousands time.........

I have many guns to carry, but no, absolutly no reasons do so. I am very happy for it.The circumstances are very differnt in your contry. You don´t understand that peoples can live no carry guns. If you don´t be afride, no need to carry guns. It is too hard to understand for you. Good never says you MUST to carry guns, or says He?
PS. I wrote those, because will to learn USA-writing. What are you thinkig abaot it? Is it better than early times.
 
No. It is illegal in my state to carry in a church unless you are the minister (and possibly someone with permission). I believe that may have been an attempt to placate a group of anti-gun ministers who lobbied against the passage of our CCW law. This only applies to actual churches, which I only attend when visiting my parents. When I go to events with my pagan wife, I carry unless the property owner has specifically forbidden weapons (or asked that I not carry in the case of more informal events) in which case I comply if I attend.
 
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I carry wherever I can; in Alabama, that's practically anywhere. Church is no exception. If the other members (including our preacher) don't like it, they probably shouldn't have signed off on my CCW application. :p
 
I pastor a small congregation in Missouri. I carry always but nobody knows. I've been asked one time by someone if they could. I told them by all means if they do so legally. In Missouri you can only carry in church if you have permission. God saves men's souls if they'll repent and accept the gift of eternal life paid for thru His own son's blood. I preach His word (not mine, nobody would/should care what I think :)), so I'm prepared to defend God's people with the Sword (the Word of God) and my Kahr 9mm. Nothing unbiblical or wrong about it.

God Bless
Gideon
 
Being faithful means that you surrender to higher authority. If I didn't believe in that authority, I wouldn't be in church at all.

I also said that when I live in AZ, I will carry anyway.
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And why does that higher authority not want you to carry in church in Utah, but is going to be ok with you carrying in Arizona? Does God's will change just a few miles to the south?
 
Churches are prime targets.
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Do you have any stats back up this assertion?

Shootings at churches make headlines because they are so shocking, but my guess is that convenience stores, check-cashing businesses, restaurants, etc. are targeted more frequently to churches. I think it's easy to be misled by the most recent headlines.

Mike
 
I carry in church.

I've got a wife and son in the car with me when going to church. There are a lot of things that can and do happen on the roads every day. What if I'm changing a flat and the guy who pulls up isn't exactly "helpful"?

I carry in church because I'm not about to leave it in the car. Thieves know you'll be occupied for an hour or so and they can take thier time. Seen it happen once. Not one car in the lot was spared. The church had advertised a big get-together with area churches for socializing and music. They scored a lot of radios and other assorted junk that evening.

A fellow was standing on his roof to get out of the flood waters that had engulfed his town. A boat came by and he refused the ride saying "God will save me". Several hours later a helicopter hovered overhead, he waved it off with the same response. The water finally overcame him and he stood at the Pearly Gates. "I thought God would save me!" he said. "What more do you want," said Saint peter. "We sent a boat and helicopter."

Faith is preparing for a bad situation and trusting you'll make it through, not willfull disregard for reality.
 
I hardly think one would need a weapon in church. Here in PK it banned to take weapon to any religous place of worship, may it be a Mosque, Church or a Temple.
 
I hardly think one would need a weapon in church.
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Maybe so, but the problem is you really don't know do you? Do you carry only when you 'think' you might need it, or do you carry whenever you possibly can in order to be prepared for the time you do need it, whether you could foresee it or not? I have a few friends who only carry when they think they might need it, but they have never been able to define the criteria they base their decision on, other than how they 'feel' about a particular event or area. There is no crystal ball.

Just to prove a point, I've been mapping on Google Maps the crime in my local area, just those events that are listed in the local papers and on their websites, and just crime related to burglaries, shootings, armed robberies, car jackings and home invasions. It is a real eye opener to see the amount of crime that is all around you, not just in the so called bad areas of town, but also in what used to be considered the good areas. Many of these are armed robberies. What would stop these folks from trying to make off with the offering money from a local church on Sunday morning, their respect for others???

Some folks think it is wrong or disrespectful to carry in church, based on the idea that God can protect them there. He certainly can, but He can do that everywhere. If that is truly one's belief, then there is no need for car insurance, life insurance, health insurance etc. I haven't had any takers when I ask them to cancel all those types of coverage though. But we are used to viewing those as necessities.

Carrying in church is not disrespectful or wrong. It is simply trying to be prepared to care for oneself and one's loved ones in what the Bible describes as a fallen world. Makes sense to me.
 
I carry in Synagogue.
In this crazy time there is no reason in the world to believe that a synagogue would not make a great target for trouble-makers. I know that others carry as well.
 
The original CCH permit laws in Kansas specifically forbade carry in churches, but as of may of 2007, a "clarification of language" was added ot the law which basically reverses that portion of the law and puts churches on the "carry unless posted as prohibited" list. I, along with several other men in the congregation have started a Church safety and security committee as have many other churches in the area. While it is legal to carry concealed in church with a legal CCH permit, I have the men on the security committee specifically authorized by the church elders to carry concealed in services and other events during the week (we provide a security overwatch of these random events). It adds a certain layer of protection and legitmacy according to our church lawyer.
I find that my Glock 27 works quite well in my Galco ankle glove holster for my situation at church with the constant up and downs. Some of the so called megachurches in our area actually have armed security teams (unpaid volunteers) that carry openly and also concealed carry team members scattered around the church for the various services. The open carry personnel serve to escort the offering plates and are up front of the sanctuary to serve as bodyguards to the pastors and staff during services. We're not that big and I think it's a little bit of overkill at that point, but that is their choice.
 
Jorg said:
And why does that higher authority not want you to carry in church in Utah, but is going to be ok with you carrying in Arizona? Does God's will change just a few miles to the south?
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I think that this hinges on respect for the law as an extension of God's authority; read Romans 13. I think God is big on personal responsibility, and is quite happy to see His people prepared to defend themselves - provided that they do so in accordance with the law of the land.
1 Thessalonians 4:11-12 (NIV)
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
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eagle45:
May be you are right. I would just want leave my weapon in the car before I enter the place of worship- unless there is something fishy in the air.
 
God helps those who help themselves.

I carried even while cantoring. You never know who has what beef with who or what. Maybe someone was molested by a priest 30 years ago and now has decided that he can no longer live with himself, the priest, or the parishioners. Maybe someone is angry that the local First Baptist doesn't have to pay certain taxes and decides to take it out in blood. Or maybe somebody is genuinely unstable and wants to kill people and what better location than a packed liturgy.

The holier than thou crap won't get you into heaven if you let your fellow parishioners die because you felt too good to carry a gun to church.

We live in different times folks.

Be smart, carry in church if you can.
 
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