jcwit
member
------------OK------------
concealed carry badges?
- Thread starter joenobody
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No? It depends on what you do with it, perhaps, if you really want to stretch your point.
If no one ever sees it, then I suppose it isn't irresponsible. However, it is also absolutely valueless. The purpose of a badge is to send a message. Seeing as no state issues a badge with their carry permits or licenses, and purchase of such a thing is not bound or regulated by any issuing authority and so can say nothing substantive about the wearer the badge, strictly speaking, means nothing to anyone.
An educated person, observing that badge clearly, reading what it says, can form no accurate (positive) conclusions about the wearer. So what that person will conclude (i.e.: nothing) from viewing that badge, can be of no value to the wearer. However, a casual glance, from the average person on the street (not a cop, nor someone familiar with these trinkets) will tend to send only the message "man with a badge." To most folks men with badges are police officers, or something very similar. As the literal message of the badge (again, "nothing") is valueless to the wearer, this secondary, specious message becomes the only reason to wear it.
If you send that message, you are making a FALSE representation of yourself, and that is an irresponsible act. It is deceptive to the public, and likely to incur the anger of and possible legal repercussions from law enforcement officers.
This is part of THR's mission: educating folks to get them over these little pitfalls and warn them off of making and a$$ of themselves, especially while armed in public.
-Sam
cleardiddion
Member
Seems like to me that although legally you have no wrongs in carrying a CC badge, that if someone wanted to pursuse the issue that you could face charges for impersonating an officer.
I mean, I remember a while back while I was reading the forums on opencarry.org that someone faced such charges for wearing a shirt that had a design on the back for some police department.
I mean, I remember a while back while I was reading the forums on opencarry.org that someone faced such charges for wearing a shirt that had a design on the back for some police department.
Sam1911 said:
There is no reason to stretch my point. I clearly stated, "It is irresponsible to break the law and use the badge for any criminal purpose."
You say, "To most folks men with badges are police officers, or something very similar. "
Security guards, little kids, the geek squad, and all sorts of people wear badges. The TSA has no arrest authority and even they wear badges. It is not up to any bearer of a badge to educate the general public. I open carry. It is not my responsibility to tell people I meet that I am a law abiding citizen. I'm not sure why the wearing of a badge angers cops, but I careless about what they think. Open carry makes them mad too, but I continue to open carry.
False representation is identifying yourself falsely. Examples may include: one who identifies himself as a cop, one who drives a car outfitted with blue lights, one who wears a fake or real cop badge, etc. It is not false representation to walk down the street with a carry permit badge exposed or concealed.
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cleardiddion said:
Earlier this year there was a guy in East Tennessee who carried a handgun in a park, told people to stop, and shot at them, while carrying a carry permit badge. He was arrested and charged with impersonation. I've not followed the story but I assume the charge probably stuck.
First Creek shooter's gun permit suspended; children were present
By News Sentinel staff
Originally published 07:01 a.m., May 6, 2009
Updated 06:48 p.m., May 6, 2009
KNOXVILLE - Children were playing in the area where one of two armed men fired a shot from his handgun on the First Creek Bike Trail on Monday, according to warrants filed in the case.
The shot was fired by Thomas H. Whitaker, 45, who was wearing a badge identifying him as a handgun permit holder and "did not seem to be mentally stable," according to a Knoxville Police Department report of the incident.
The badge prompted the Knoxville Police Department to charge him with impersonating a law enforcement officer, as well as reckless endangerment for allegedly firing his 45-caliber semiautomatic handgun.
"There were kids playing near where (Whitaker) fired his weapon," KPD Officer Timothy Riddle stated in the warrant he signed. "It also appeared by the way (he) was dressed he was attempting to impersonate a police officer."
Whitaker admitted he fired a shot at an unknown person whom, he alleges, was trying to steal his property, according to Riddle's report.
Whitaker was carrying his loaded handgun in a holster and had two spare loaded magazines, for a total of 25 cartridges. Riddle's report stated.
Department of Safety spokesman Mike Browning said late Wednesday that Whitaker's handgun carry permit has been suspended and will be revoked if he is convicted.
Whitaker's companion and North Fourth Avenue neighbor, Barney R. Fairchild, 51, does not have a permit and was charged with carrying a weapon for the purpose of going armed. Fairchild was armed with a .380-caliber semi-automatic handgun, loaded with six cartridges. Both are scheduled to be arraigned in Sessions Court on May 14 at 10 a.m. The guns, cartridges and Whitaker's gold badge were confiscated, KPD spokesman Darrell DeBusk said.
The state issues handgun carry permits in the form of photo ID cards, but not badges, Browning said. But such badges are available for sale at gun shows and over the internet.
"We do not recommend or encourage civilian permit holders to do anything to bring any attention to the fact that they are either a permit holder or are at any time armed," said John Harris, general counsel for the Tennessee Sheriffs; Association and executive director of the pro-gun group Tennessee Firearms Association. "With those permit badges, you could look and act too much like an officer and then end up getting charged with impersonating an officer."
Lt. Greg Hoskins said Whitaker and Fairchild claimed a man had tried to rob them on the bike trail Sunday and brought their guns with them for protection when they returned to the park the next day when they encountered the man again. They said he fled on foot toward Grainger Avenue after the shot was fired.
"After interviewing Mr. Whitaker it appeared that his story was not adding up," Riddle said in his report. "It also appeared that Mr. Whitaker did not seem mentally stable." But the report did not indicate what led Riddle to make that statement.
The men hadn't filed a police report about the alleged robbery attempt on Sunday, Hoskins said.
The incident happened about 6:47 p.m. when Riddle, on a traffic-related assignment near the bike trail, was approached by a citizen who said there was a man with "a gun and a badge" on the trail, KPD Lt. Jim Settlemyer said. The officer then heard a gunshot and went to investigate, Settlemyer said.
"When they (the two men) saw the officer they turned and started in the other direction, and basically we got some more officers and caught up with them," Settlemyer said.
More details as they develop online and in Thursday's News Sentinel
sheepdog
Member
ArmedBear...
"...If someone had a CCW badge, or referred to himself as a "sheepdog" except in jest, I'd be gone. ..."
...all I can say to that, is MORE DONUTS LEFT FOR ME!!!...
"...If someone had a CCW badge, or referred to himself as a "sheepdog" except in jest, I'd be gone. ..."
...all I can say to that, is MORE DONUTS LEFT FOR ME!!!...
Brian Dale
Member
...and sheepdog wins the thread.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It IS stretching the point. As I have unassailably shown, the only value for the wearer is in delivering a false impression to others. It is not necessarily a criminal purpose to encourage some people to make a false assumption, but it is unethical. It would be up to a judge and jury to determine whether your actions were substantial, deliberate, and effective enough to be criminal.
Do have certain responsibilities, and sometimes they are armed. Their badge means something, though not the same thing as a police officer's badge. They also wear a uniform and appear (and act) only in a specified location.
You have GOT to be kidding me. Yeah. if little kids are allowed in public wearing a plastic "Jr. Policeman" badge, then surely the real-looking badge carried next to the real gun on my belt couldn't POSSIBLY be a problem. Why it's EXACTLY the same thing.
You are clutching some mighty fine straws, here.
Along with some uniform that completes the message being sent by the badge.
The only group of folks I can think of who go armed and carry a badge in civilian-appearing street clothes are undercover or off-duty police officers. You wear your slacks and oxford shirt, and strap on your gun and "CCW" badge, you are sending a false message. Simply saying that it's not your fault what people conclude from the message you're sending is a bare-faced lie.
It isn't about arrest authority. It is about sending a message of who you are. And that message is a lie. A TSA agent has responsibilities, and his/her badge is given by a federal authority charged with screening and employing people to discharge those responsibilities.
The argument you're really making is not that it isn't the responsibility of authorities to educate folks about what their badge represents. You're trying, poorly, to say that it isn't your responsibility to dispel the false impression you're deliberately sending to the public. That won't fly.
(And yes, I know you don't have a CCW badge. But you're stepping into that role by carrying the argument for those who do.)
No. It is your right to carry that gun. You are not claiming or pretending to any special authorization or authority by that act. The gun isn't the issue. The badge is.
If you can't picture why presenting yourself in the guise of an off-duty or undercover officer would anger cops, you have very little imagination.
And, again, if you flash a concealed gun and a realistic badge, that's just what you're doing.
Open carry makes cops mad? Not the ones I know. I'm sure it angers some, but it is your right and you harm or mislead no one by doing it. Again, the gun isn't even remotely the issue here.
Once more, for the kewpie doll, if you walk the streets in casual clothes, with a gun and a badge on your belt, you are emulating a well-known social element, the plain-clothed or off-duty police officer. Closer inspection, if folks choose to make one, will disprove that impression (and displace it with the "weird wannabe" impression) but the majority of the public will instantly pick up the vibe you're sending out.
And that's what this CCW Badge fad is trading on.
-Sam
"As I have unassailably shown, the only value for the wearer is in delivering a false impression to others."
That just is not true. These badges clearly state carry permit holder. There is no false impression given by the holder of such a badge unless stated otherwise by the holder. I can understand false assumptions made by others. I open carry and people assume I am dangerous all day long.
No one is claiming any special authority because they have a badge.
Flashing a gun may be considered brandishing and is something I would not recommend. Quickly displaying or flashing a badge could also be considered impersonation. It depends upon how it is done and for what reason. I wouldn't recommend doing it. There is nothing wrong with simply displaying a carry permit badge on a belt. There is nothing wrong with concealing a badge. The badge means nothing.
You state I have a right to carry. That may be true, but that right is not recognized by most States or the Federal Government. I am in possesion of permit granted by the State and the privilege to carry a loaded handgun is mostly restricted to those who have applied and paid for it.
That just is not true. These badges clearly state carry permit holder. There is no false impression given by the holder of such a badge unless stated otherwise by the holder. I can understand false assumptions made by others. I open carry and people assume I am dangerous all day long.
No one is claiming any special authority because they have a badge.
Flashing a gun may be considered brandishing and is something I would not recommend. Quickly displaying or flashing a badge could also be considered impersonation. It depends upon how it is done and for what reason. I wouldn't recommend doing it. There is nothing wrong with simply displaying a carry permit badge on a belt. There is nothing wrong with concealing a badge. The badge means nothing.
You state I have a right to carry. That may be true, but that right is not recognized by most States or the Federal Government. I am in possesion of permit granted by the State and the privilege to carry a loaded handgun is mostly restricted to those who have applied and paid for it.
SharpsDressedMan
member
I've often thought about carrying an "EX POLICE" badge. How could they charge me with impersonating a police officer when it clearly states EX on it? (I got this from the old "Saturday Night Live" skit.)
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
kwikrnu,
I've made my points and you've made yours. You're stuck on making the point that this isn't an illegal act, and you're right. I'm stuck on making the point that this is a poor and unethical act with no benefits and serious possible repercussions, and I think I'm right.
Illegal? No.
Wise? No.
I guess you're not convincing me and I'm obviously talking past you, too. Hopefully others reading are learning more from this than you or I are.
-Sam
I've made my points and you've made yours. You're stuck on making the point that this isn't an illegal act, and you're right. I'm stuck on making the point that this is a poor and unethical act with no benefits and serious possible repercussions, and I think I'm right.
Illegal? No.
Wise? No.
I guess you're not convincing me and I'm obviously talking past you, too. Hopefully others reading are learning more from this than you or I are.
-Sam
My point was centered on the toy gun, not the act of robbery. I see no difference between a "poser" badge and a toy when used to deceive someone.
I think Sam stated it best:
Gungnir
Member
Ok I prepared a response to this last night, and decided not to post it.
Here's the deal.
I carry concealed, I do not have nor need any badge, patch, or anything that identifies me as a Carrying a concealed firearm, except my license in my wallet, I have a CPL in Washington State, and live in AK where concealed carry requires no license.
I carry concealed for defensive purposes, I do not flit furtively around looking for possible crimes in progress, and looking to cap a bad guy. Indeed I actively avoid places where I even suspect that a situation may occur that will require me to use my firearm. I have inadvertently had people see my carry piece and in general had no issues except one time in a Wally World, where someone informed a security guard who asked me about it and I explained.
The issue with a CCW/CPL/CHL "badge" is the following
Police Impersonation is generally defined by the following
In addition to this, possessing a firearm while doing any of these things can lead to more severe penalties.
So lets look at this from a potential situation. You're in your local store, someone outside in the parking lot is hurt, a good samaritan spotted your "Concealed Carry" badge and mistook it for a Official badge, and asks for your help, now if you don't state you're not an official, then if you give assistance you're on shaky legal grounds, and if you do then you're going to be seen as a tool, and if nothing else verbally assaulted. Now if you don't explain and do render aid, then that can compound the problem, because in addition to having confused a member of the public with your Concealed Carry Badge you're now acting AS a public official, now if you need to administer CPR (and you're trained) then the person who is hurt could later file a civil suit against you, for assault or sexual assault, since at the time you rendered aid you were impersonating a Police Officer. In this case you are at the mercy of a group of people who were fooled by your fake badge, to tell the truth that either you said I'm not a police officer, or to admit that they weren't fooled by the badge, this isn't a situation that I would like to be in.
Now lets suppose that you need to actually draw your handgun for defense, and you stop the perp, are you going to keep him there until the police arrive? Think on this, if yes then you're likely to be arrested on suspicion of impersonating a police officer, whether the DA thinks it'll stand up will depend on whether you're charged, and the police could hold you for up to 72 hours without charge, you'll need a lawyer which costs money (lots), have your home workplace and car searched as you've provided probable cause, and hope that there's nothing there that might be laying around (say some weed from years ago under the dresser). Worst of all if there is a real impersonation crime wave going on then you're prime suspect now.
Now as for the perp, well are the police going to call you as a witness, nope no credibility here's a cross examination example.
"At the time that you illegally detained my client, were you impersonating a police officer?"
"Were you carrying a badge that might be confused with a police badge?"
"Do you believe that you are a Cop or a Vigilante?"
"Do you understand the meaning of the term Mall Ninja? Could you explain to the court what that description means?"
"Would carrying a fake police badge be considered an act that a mall ninja might perform?"
"Why did you apply for a concealed carry permit?"
"If, as you claim, it was for self defense, then could you please explain your reasoning why you detained my client, any reasonable and prudent person would not consider, given the evidence, that this was a self-defensive act."
What's worse is that if the perp is quick on his feet, anything that he's possessing that is illegal, he could claim you planted at gun point. He might have more credibility at that time than you do.
Remember, one small salient fact, in ISOLATION, carrying a badge that says "carry permit holder" while normally dressed, is of itself not illegal, whether it's responsible is debatable. However once you set foot outside your door with the badge and firearm, then it's all down to whether a reasonable and prudent witness might mistake you for a police officer, you have no control of situations that happen when you're in public, and no way of controlling how people perceive you, with or without your badge.
The one common theme with most law enforcement officers is that they have a "badge" and a gun, so the question is, if you saw someone flash the badge below at you when they had a visible gun, would your immediate reaction be that they were a cop? If the answer is yes, then don't do it.
Here's the deal.
I carry concealed, I do not have nor need any badge, patch, or anything that identifies me as a Carrying a concealed firearm, except my license in my wallet, I have a CPL in Washington State, and live in AK where concealed carry requires no license.
I carry concealed for defensive purposes, I do not flit furtively around looking for possible crimes in progress, and looking to cap a bad guy. Indeed I actively avoid places where I even suspect that a situation may occur that will require me to use my firearm. I have inadvertently had people see my carry piece and in general had no issues except one time in a Wally World, where someone informed a security guard who asked me about it and I explained.
The issue with a CCW/CPL/CHL "badge" is the following
Police Impersonation is generally defined by the following
- Vocally announcing that you are a police officer
- Presenting a warrant card, the imposter though not in any special clothes presents a police like badge that may be confused with an official warrant card by the observers
- Dressing in a manner that may be confused with a police officer
- Driving a vehicle that may be confused with a police vehicle
In addition to this, possessing a firearm while doing any of these things can lead to more severe penalties.
So lets look at this from a potential situation. You're in your local store, someone outside in the parking lot is hurt, a good samaritan spotted your "Concealed Carry" badge and mistook it for a Official badge, and asks for your help, now if you don't state you're not an official, then if you give assistance you're on shaky legal grounds, and if you do then you're going to be seen as a tool, and if nothing else verbally assaulted. Now if you don't explain and do render aid, then that can compound the problem, because in addition to having confused a member of the public with your Concealed Carry Badge you're now acting AS a public official, now if you need to administer CPR (and you're trained) then the person who is hurt could later file a civil suit against you, for assault or sexual assault, since at the time you rendered aid you were impersonating a Police Officer. In this case you are at the mercy of a group of people who were fooled by your fake badge, to tell the truth that either you said I'm not a police officer, or to admit that they weren't fooled by the badge, this isn't a situation that I would like to be in.
Now lets suppose that you need to actually draw your handgun for defense, and you stop the perp, are you going to keep him there until the police arrive? Think on this, if yes then you're likely to be arrested on suspicion of impersonating a police officer, whether the DA thinks it'll stand up will depend on whether you're charged, and the police could hold you for up to 72 hours without charge, you'll need a lawyer which costs money (lots), have your home workplace and car searched as you've provided probable cause, and hope that there's nothing there that might be laying around (say some weed from years ago under the dresser). Worst of all if there is a real impersonation crime wave going on then you're prime suspect now.
Now as for the perp, well are the police going to call you as a witness, nope no credibility here's a cross examination example.
"At the time that you illegally detained my client, were you impersonating a police officer?"
"Were you carrying a badge that might be confused with a police badge?"
"Do you believe that you are a Cop or a Vigilante?"
"Do you understand the meaning of the term Mall Ninja? Could you explain to the court what that description means?"
"Would carrying a fake police badge be considered an act that a mall ninja might perform?"
"Why did you apply for a concealed carry permit?"
"If, as you claim, it was for self defense, then could you please explain your reasoning why you detained my client, any reasonable and prudent person would not consider, given the evidence, that this was a self-defensive act."
What's worse is that if the perp is quick on his feet, anything that he's possessing that is illegal, he could claim you planted at gun point. He might have more credibility at that time than you do.
Remember, one small salient fact, in ISOLATION, carrying a badge that says "carry permit holder" while normally dressed, is of itself not illegal, whether it's responsible is debatable. However once you set foot outside your door with the badge and firearm, then it's all down to whether a reasonable and prudent witness might mistake you for a police officer, you have no control of situations that happen when you're in public, and no way of controlling how people perceive you, with or without your badge.
The one common theme with most law enforcement officers is that they have a "badge" and a gun, so the question is, if you saw someone flash the badge below at you when they had a visible gun, would your immediate reaction be that they were a cop? If the answer is yes, then don't do it.
The Bushmaster
Member
Even if I had one and even if I hung it in my reloading/gun room (man cave). My friends would laugh me out of the state. Here in Missouri it is considered one of the dumbest things to own or do...
No CCW badge for me.
Sheepdog...You wouldn't mind sharing some of those donuts with an old retired Sailor, would you? I'll bring the best coffee you ever had...
No CCW badge for me.
Sheepdog...You wouldn't mind sharing some of those donuts with an old retired Sailor, would you? I'll bring the best coffee you ever had...
mljdeckard
Member
I can think of a LOT of ways it could bite you in the butt. I have to REALLY strain my imagination to think of a way it would do you any good.
Show me a guy with one of these badges, and I'll show you a guy who wishes he could be a cop, but is unwilling or unable to do what it takes to become one.
Show me a guy with one of these badges, and I'll show you a guy who wishes he could be a cop, but is unwilling or unable to do what it takes to become one.
Ghost Walker
Member
Personally, I like the ones that say, 'Marshall' or, 'Sheriff' on them. Cool! 
sheepdog
Member
Come on Down!!!
Bushmaster...this old Jarhead loves the Navy!!! (Not really, I just want the coffee!!!) Thanks for the holler...if you wander this way...let me know...
Bushmaster...this old Jarhead loves the Navy!!! (Not really, I just want the coffee!!!) Thanks for the holler...if you wander this way...let me know...
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