Concealed carry class: interesting observations

[Fu-man Shoe]

I Went to a concealed carry class tonight, and I thought I'd mention
some of the things that I noticed.

There were a couple of trends that I thought were interesting, that go
against a lot of typical gun board elitism, arm-chair-commandoism, and
fascination with ultra tactical, high caliber, "one shot stop" weapons.

First off, .380 ACP seems to be a very popular caliber for CCW.
Out of a class of 30, 10 people there were shooting something
chambered in .380, myself included. Evidently a lot of the people there
had not got the memo about .380 being a worthless SD round.

Second, .38 SPL is alive and well, and you just never know who may
be packing one. During the range qualification stage, there was an older black
lady next to me shooting a small .38, and I have to say, she was a pretty good shot!

Third, Hi-Points are a lot more popular than you'd think. Again, it seems
that more than a few people have not got the word about them being
a completely worthless peice of junk not fit to waste your money on,
because out of the four people shooting them tonight, all of them seemed
to be doing just fine.

In fact, they seemed to be doing a whole lot better on average than
the...ahem.."rather large" gentleman shooting the tricked out Springfield
tactical 1911.

Lessons learned?

In the real world, (as opposed to gun board tactical ninja fantasy land) more
people than you'd think shoot and carry various "mouseguns", "old and weak"
calibers like .38 SPL, and many simply shoot what they can afford, often to good effect.

But the best thing? Everyone at this class tonight looked like a completely
random person you'd pass on the street, and never give them a second look.

I like that.

Bad guys beware.

 

[Erich]

Nice report; thanks.

 

[crashresidue]

Cheers,

I agree.

Gentle winds,
cr

 

[Hanzo581]

Bottom line is you should carry what you are comfortable shooting, two of my friends that I am about to take a carry class with will be carrying .380 Bersa's I on the other hand am going with the XD45, but either way the BG is going to know he has been shot, should the need arise

 

[Ditchtiger]

A hit with a .380 is better than a miss with a .357 anyday

 

[vynx]

I remember reading that 100 + years ago the most popular selling calibers were .31 in cap & ball and then .32 when it went self contained.

The same reasons probably still apply - light wieght, easy to conceal small size, and low recoil...even today with Kahr in 9mm and Titanium/Scandium 12 oz. .357s the low weight means more felt recoil.

 

[tulsamal]

You had better luck than I did in my CCW class at Tulsa Firearms. There was one couple who bought a Walther .22 right there in the store to use in the class and for carrying. Assorted motley guns. All I remember is that none of them were different enough to even draw my attention. I had a hard time deciding what to take myself since the range required factory ammo and "no reloads." A bunch of my guns have never even seen a factory round. I've got hundreds of rounds of reloads for each one but it seemed silly to buy some expensive factory ammo just for the class. I wasn't going to use my actual Gold Dot type factory loads that I would actually carry either. So I finally decided to take the Glock 17 just because it is easy to shoot well and 9mm is dirt cheap. Bought a couple boxes of the cheapest stuff they had. And totally shot the center section of the target to bits. After a while I was just shooting rounds through the existing holes. All around me were people who were shooting all over the paper. Or off the paper. I felt like a college professor in a first grade classroom.

Didn't matter to anybody though. Nobody did anything dangerous so they all got their permits. And we haven't had any "bad" incidents with CCW holders in Oklahoma so I guess the system is working! Just don't expect any of those people to be able to resolve a hostage situation!

Gregg

 

[Srigs]

Well this does not surprise me at all. 380 and 38 make for concealable guns that work. My father-in-law carries and qualified with a 38. I qualified with a 40 but it is just to big to carry except in winter. So, I carry a 9mm and 32acp guns because I can conceal them.

The second group is the people who don't have 500 to 600 on a gun. They may choose a Hi Point because the cost less and they work. I'm glad they have the option of protecting themselfs with their Hi Point's.

So, all in all this is a good thing because it open up the options to more weapons and choices.

 

[Kankujoe]

In my CCW class you had to shoot 70 rounds each with an auto and a revolver regardless of what you planned on carrying. Caliber choices had to range between .22 cal through .45 cal.

During my CCW class I used a .22LR auto and a .22LR revolver. I figured, why make things harder (or more expensive) than you have to? Of course these two handguns would not be my carry guns but there was no doubt that they are easy to qualify with.

Two others in my class did the same. Most everyone else used 45s, 40s, 9s and 38s. Everyone did fine and passed but the three of us with the 22s did not sweat it as much and each of us (with the 22s) qualified in less than 15 minutes, some of the others took more than an hour.

I've also gone the route of larger caliber (40 S&W) to smaller caliber (.380). I now carry one or both of my Kel Tec P3ATs with me everywhere. Its just so much easier to carry and conceal these pistols than using the dozen or so holsters, vests, jackets, combos and other clothing choices needed to carry my P99 .40 or my Star 9mm. I sure do love to shoot these pistols (40 & 9) but the P3ATs are much more convenient. Maybe I'll swing back the other way again but for now its more fun and less hassle to CCW with the mouseguns.

 

[P0832177]

Srigs, there is no caliber qualification in MN! You choose what to qualify with! There is no restriction on your permit in MN! Perhaps it is just your wording? of your response

There are well known advocates of this or that. I agree functional is good, but people have to keep things simple! For the occasional user a small J frame is just right for purse or pocket, but the high point is just plain too bulky for cc use in my estimation!

I do not care for most of the attitudes of the vast # of instructors of CC in MN. They are nothing but the modern day version of carpet baggers! They did not exist before the MPPA, and they only serve to seperate the unsuspecting gun owner from his or her money! There is Church of Defensive Edge, The Church of Plus P Inc, The Church of AAFCI, and so many others that well it makes a person want to puke! :banghead:

 

[shotgunkevin]

totally shot the center section of the target to bits. After a while I was just shooting rounds through the existing holes. All around me were people who were shooting all over the paper. Or off the paper. I felt like a college professor in a first grade classroom.

Not to sound like a pompous mule, but I was the best shot in my CCW class too, and I even took the "rapid fire" portion seriously - 5 shots in under 2 seconds, out of (IIRC) 10 seconds allowed. I felt pretty smug about it at the time, but then it dawned on me: there were married couples, older folks, and one guy that was kinda freaky looking, but all of us are entitled to defend ourselves with weapons. Just because some are better shots than others does not negate their right to live. Just because one guy spends $1,500 for a custom 1911 doesn't mean he's more worthy than someone who bought a used Jennings. Sure, improve your skill, and select the best tool to use. But without exception, every life is sacred and worthy of protection. It really made me question the whole concept of licensing CCW permits.

 

[Jeff White]

Second, .38 SPL is alive and well, and you just never know who may
be packing one.

.38 Spl is still a popular caliber with people who carry for a living. I've carried a .38 snubby BUG since I became a cop. The small Glocks have made some inroads into that application, but you'll find a lot of .38s in vest, pocket and ankle holsters out there.

Third, Hi-Points are a lot more popular than you'd think. Again, it seems
that more than a few people have not got the word about them being
a completely worthless peice of junk not fit to waste your money on,
because out of the four people shooting them tonight, all of them seemed
to be doing just fine.

Unfortunately that tells me that a trend I noticed 10 years ago when I helped out in my friends gunshop is still with us. That trend was that people tend to spend as little money as possible for self defense defense weapons. The most popular nightstand gun we sold was the Jennings .22.

I have always said the main requirement for a defensive firearm was reliability. Unfortunately many others think it's cost.....

Jeff

 

[Shorts]

the OPs obeservaation trends were similar to my CCW class experiemce as well. Don't underestimate, but don't overcompensate.

People shoot what they have available. And it isn't always the most high-tech, latest edition off the line materials.

I too with my "measly" .380 had the fastest draws and well-placed shots in my class.



If you're gonna carry, you better know how to shoot it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In the real world, (as opposed to gun board tactical ninja fantasy land) more people than you'd think shoot and carry various "mouseguns", "old and weak" calibers like .38 SPL, and many simply shoot what they can afford, often to good effect.

That trend was that people tend to spend as little money as possible for self defense defense weapons. The most popular nightstand gun we sold was the Jennings .22.

Yes, in the real world, many folks do carry less than ideal calibers that they fire from less than ideal guns. Why? In some cases, such as in examples I have read on the boards and in gun shops, if the gun is for a woman, the gun shop wants to sell her something cute, petite, and defensively lacking because of some archaic belief that women can't handle tools like guns. Maybe it was the hubby or a family friend that steered the shooter in that direction, but the notion is the same. And it may be for the reason that nobody believes the shooter will ever practice and that the shooter won't be able to handle a larger caliber well without practicing. The men, they just claim they will shoot the bad guy in the eye with the puny caliber, because we all know men are such amazing shots all the time.

As for the trend to use cheaper guns, anybody who knows nothing about guns knows that all guns are guns and hence all guns do the same job. You buy a cheap gun sometimes because "it is meant to be shot a little and carried a lot." So you can get away with buying something that won't have much shooting longevity because you won't shoot it much anyway. Of course, that means the person buying the gun isn't going to be practicing too much.

--------

The trends I have noticed in Texas CHL classes is that a large part of the class population tends to be middle-aged or older and overweight. I attribute the option of getting a CHL then as being one of finally being old enough to have accumulated enough wealth to be a more attractive target of criminals while at the same time not being as young and strong enough to take on the world as they could do when they were in their teens and 20s. So being armed is a mechanical adaptation to remaining viable in the population even though they may be biologically on the long downhill slide.

Many folks will buy a new gun at a gun store, one or two boxes of ammo, and show up to a CHL class to shoot their gun for the very first time when they qualify, not having read the owner's manual, not knowing how to make the gun run, not knowing how to load magazines or cylinders. Apparently, self defense is about having a gun, not actually being able to use a gun or know how to use a gun. After all, a gun is a gun is a gun and anybody can use one, right?

 

[JMusic]

I qualified for my CCW with a model 27 Glock. I carry anything from a 22 mag to a Kimber CDP 45 ACP. I agree with Jeff from some of the courses I have been involved with recently we spend alot of time trying to get a gun to function. Some come to a SD class having not even breaking the gun in, which in reality only requires 100 rounds or so. The CCW program though is designed to allow amatures to be able to carry a firearm for their defence. If you look at the differsity this entails its hard to put rules on make or caliber.

Jim

 

[mosttoyswins]

Third, Hi-Points are a lot more popular than you'd think. Again, it seems
that more than a few people have not got the word about them being
a completely worthless peice of junk not fit to waste your money on,
because out of the four people shooting them tonight, all of them seemed
to be doing just fine.

Well, there is no accounting for taste...

 

[Sisco]

I took my class last month and found it very informative. Not so much in the safety / gun types part but in the legalities of CCW. That portion took almost four hours of the eight hour class.
Our instructor for the legal portion was a local attorney who is a shooter. He told us that at other times when he is not present an attorney from the County Attorney's office was there. The CA office lawyers advice if you were involved in a shooting was to fully cooperate with the LEO's on scene; answer all their questions, tell them everything they want to know.
His advice? "Shut the "F" up." Tell the officers you want your attorney present before answering any questions except name rank and serial number.

At the range there was a variety of weapons, mostly 9mm and .38 special and a few .22's. I considered taking my 22/45 just for economy's sake but decided to take my Kimber. Those twenty five rounds were the first factory loads it's seen.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

But without exception, every life is sacred and worthy of protection. It really made me question the whole concept of licensing CCW permits.

It's sad that this came as an epiphany for you so late in life, but at least you've seen the light.

This is, after all, what the 2d Amendment is all about. And this is why those who are 2d Amendment "purists" steadfastly maintain that ANY carry laws, permit/license requirements, FOIDs, etc., are unconstitutional. Because they ARE unconstitutional.

Now ... all we have to do is get five of those folks wearing the black robes in Washington to say it's unconstitutional.

 

[BlackJack]

My classes for 142 people over the last two years have been 61% men and 39% women. Firearms brands and calibers broke out as follows:

Calibers:
39 ea -- 9x19mm
34 ea -- .22LR
20 ea -- .38 Special
14 ea -- .357 Magnum
11 ea -- .45 ACP
5 ea -- .380 Auto
3 ea -- .32 Auto,
2 ea -- .40 Auto
1 ea -- .32 S&W Long, .44 Magnum, 9x18mm

Brands:
26 ea – S&W
24 ea – Ruger
11 ea – Glock
9 ea – Taurus
8 ea – Beretta
7 ea – Colt
6 ea – SIG-Sauer
5 ea – CZ, JC Higgins
4 ea – Heckler & Koch, Springfield
3 ea - Bersa, Dan Wesson
2 ea – Star, Kel-Tec, Walther
1 ea – Astra, Browning, Bryco-Jennings, Charter, Heritage, High Standard,
Norinco, Rossi, Steyr

Conclusions: Down here in Florida, 9mm and .38 Special/.357 Mag are the most commonly chosen. Some are carrying smaller calibers, including .22LR, but not so many as larger calibers. Also S&W and Ruger are the most common manufacturer choices.

 

[browningguy]

Well, just because a bunch of random people taking their CHL are using Hi Points, 38 spcl, and .380s doesn't mean those are the right answer.

Each has their place but it seems from the tone of your post you think this proves all the people carrying larger caliber or higher quality guns must be wrong. Personally I carry a BHP in .40 S&W 80% of the time, about 15% of the time it's a Bersa .380, and 5% either a Browning or Beretta in .25ACP. It depends on where I'm going and what I'm wearing. And by the way I recommend the Bersa to a lot of people as one of the best bargains in pistols going.

I would caution against using this class full of people to make your decisions on what to carry. The last renewal class I took, about 2 years ago, something like 75% were what you would classify as non or new shooters, meaning extremely limited experience with pistols. I'm not a very good shooter, which you would know if you saw me wander around an IDPA course, but I shot the qualification clean with my BHP. However that doesn't mean it's the right pistol for everyone.

 

[PX15]

I think the advice given the gentleman attending the concealed carry class regarding actions after a shooting were right on target..

Be respecful and courteous, but SHUT up.. Ask for a lawyer.., but anything you DON'T say can't be held against you.....

It's a shame that a law abiding citizen who has to use a firearm to defend him/herself against a bg/bg's then has to worry about what to say or not to say to the investigating leo's.. But, there it is.

Silence is golden... Remember that.

JMOFO

J. Pomeroy

 

[Werewolf]

After a while I was just shooting rounds through the existing holes. All around me were people who were shooting all over the paper. Or off the paper.

I had an almost identical experience in my CCW class. In fact some of the folks shooting that day were so bad that for about a week I was convinced that it should be a requirement for anyone to even purchase a firearm that they must pass a minimum level of competence with it before allowed to take it home. Fortunately I came to my senses and dropped that notion...

ASIDE: Ranges that only allow factory ammo. Just put your reloads in a factory box. I've never had the indoor range I shoot at do more than glance at the box and run the magnetometer across it - they certainly aren't checking head stamps. BUT even if they did it'd be a minor sorting exercise to put winchester brass in a winchester box, etc. etc. etc...

 

[Moondoggie]

My state is still processing the CCW training requirements for our recently enacted CCW law. Classes should be able to start this Dec so that folks can submit their apps in Jan. I plan on taking the class as soon as it's available.

I'm NOT looking forward to it. Being a retired Marine, former reserve LEO, former CCW holder in AZ and an active IPSC shooter I know in advance I'm going to have to just grit my teeth and keep my mouth shut in order to complete the class. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm anticipating all sorts of attitude and misinformation from the newly sanctioned instructors.

I've already experienced the off-the-wall attitudes of other students and the poor gun knowledge/handling/shooting when I took the class in AZ.

I recall one elderly lady commenting following the legal portion of the syllabus "What good is this permit if you can't shoot anybody?". Her answer to the scenario of finding someone in the process of removing your car stereo in your dirveway at 3 AM..."Shoot 'em in the back!".

I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[Hemicuda]

Ok... that all makes sense to me...

I don't own a .380... but I have been known to carry a .32 ACP on more than a few occasions...

I owned (and carried) a Hi-Point 9MM for a while, sold it to a buddy who is just starting out with handguns... I kinda miss it... it was a darned accurate little bugger... ugly, but accurate...

I regularly carry a Smitty 637 airweight in .38+p... easy to conceal, easy to shoot... great gun!

been carrying these legally for almost 10 years... so i seem to fit most of those catagories...

and god forbid I ever had to USE these guns, the bad guy would be just as dead from my "mousegun", my "uglyass Hi-Point" or my "itty-bitty .38 Smitty", as he would be from a tricked out .45!

Note: I also have .357's .40's, and .45's so carrying the above is a choice!

 

[GEM]

When you get folks serious enought train beyond the CHL test, I have rarely seen the crap guns. You see Glocks, Sigs, 1911s, Berettas, etc. The J's are BUGS.

Most people get the permit to carry a gun in the car. That most DGUs are deterrent in nature is what saves them from having to use the Piece o' Crap.

The TX CHL test is child's play but I see folks all over the target.