Concealed carry class: interesting observations

[BullfrogKen]

lbmii said: "Oh yeah I carry my big ole 45 and it conceals just fine." Yeah sure you bet buddy. Maybe once in a while the big ole 45 can be carried. But the reality is that for every single day carry you need a small 25-auto size pistol. The Kel Tec 3AT fills this role pretty well. . . .

I will tell you right now that people who talk big about how they carry their big ole pistol and how it's no big deal are not being totally honest. Yes they might carry that big ole pistol on occasion but not everyday. . . .

Let's try to be intellectually honest when it comes to these discussions.
Every day concealed carry is a challange.

I carry a Colt Commander. I do it everyday, except on the rare occasions I'm too affected by my health condition to tolerate the weight around my waist. I can count maybe 4 weeks all this year when that was the case.

I carry it every day. All day. I am not a gun writer. I do not work in a gun shop. I am quite the normal, everyday joe; I have simply made the decision to be armed and adjusted my wardobe around it. And I carry it in an OWB holster, not shoved around my crotch in some underwear pouch.


Intellectually honest? Plenty of people actually do manage it. You might not believe it possible, but that's your perception. Don't infer from your inability or unwillingness to make it possible that those of us that do are lying.

 

[Jeff White]

I carry a Colt MK IV Series 70 Government Model every day. I'm a cop so I guess that makes me part of the submerged in the gun culture group.

I dress like everyone else does around here. Jeans, untucked shirts, occasionally a vest. I wear my 5.11 pants when I'm actually at the range.

I always have a SW J frame on me in a pocket holster. You can be armed all the time with an effective weapon without making all that many changes in your lifestyle. I walk through the grocery store or the mall and I pretty much look like everyone else.

Here's the funny thing. For years I always bought the compact version of my duty weapon to carry off duty. I'm carrying a Kimber Warrior on duty now and carrying the Colt off duty. What I've discovered is that the full size 1911 conceals better and is just as comfortable to carry then most of the compacts I've carried off duty: Colt Officers ACP, SW 3914, Glock 36.

I use a Blade Tech IWB strong side. I'm 6'2" 240. It can be done.

Jeff

 

[Eleven Mike]

What a couple of girls. I carry a 150mm Palladin, concealed, at all times. I wear it even when nude, and no one has ever noticed. Let's just say it's not the biggest gun I carry.

 

[mdao]

I'm a mild manned, 5'6", 175 lb engineer. I'm not part of the submerged "gun culture" by any stretch of the imagination. My dress style falls pretty close to the "dress casual" standards listed by AJ Dual, 'cept I replace the Khakis with jeans a lot.

I carry whenever I'm not at work, and always have a Scandium SW1911 with slim grips or a S&W 3914 on me. I use cheapo High Noon tuckable holsters at 3 o'clock with both of them. The clips on the tuckables are modified to work with my cell holster to camoflage them. Alternately, the 3914 + Smartcarry + pleated Khakis also works really well when I can't IWB carry.

The only carry issue I've run into is that I'm need slightly larger shirts to when carrying a full sized 1911, as I'm not thick enough to hide the butt of the pistol. No problems with that on the CCO style pistol I'm building up though.

I figure, I'm already carrying 15 lbs of extra weight, what's another 3 lbs going to matter?

What a couple of girls. I carry a 150mm Palladin, concealed, at all times. I wear it even when nude, and no one has ever noticed. Let's just say it's not the biggest gun I carry.

 

[Sinsaba]

The trends I have noticed in Texas CHL classes is that a large part of the class population tends to be middle-aged or older and overweight. I attribute the option of getting a CHL then as being one of finally being old enough to have accumulated enough wealth to be a more attractive target of criminals while at the same time not being as young and strong enough to take on the world as they could do when they were in their teens and 20s.

Alternate theories:

1) $: permits are _expensive_ in Texas. What is it, $100 for the class and $150 for the paperwork? That's a big pill to swallow for younger kids. Even with the cheapest of classes and the Indigent Texan discount, you're still looking at $150 total for a permit that costs $45 in Seattle.

2) Awareness: in their age/culture group, there might be more of an awareness (or paranoia) of crime than in younger/slimmer cultural groups. It's an open question as to whether those in your CCW class are actually taking reasonable precautions for their situation, or are freaking out over their 1:1000 chance of facing violent crime vs 1:3 chance of heart attack.

Or, to give them more credit, maybe they've gotten past the "it can't happen to me, I'm invincible" stage that's more common in young people.

Well, I'm getting up there, I'll hit the half century in about 90 days. I'm out of shape (not fat 5'9" 175 Lbs.), I've had a heart attack, I've never learned to fight. This world has become a more violent place and I have become more aware of it, I need a tool to level the playing field a bit with that young punk that thinks it would be fun to hurt that guy that doesn't look like he can fight back (face it, most of the violent crimes will be commited by someone younger than I).

Paranoid? Hard to say, is it paranoia if the really are out to get you? Fact of the matter is that people who commit violent crimes are out to get people like me (though they would prefer someone a little more decrepit). You see, as I've become more aware I have also become aware IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME.

I've also

 

[Kankujoe]

I really can't dispute info on ballistics, wound characteristics, etc. In an ideal world I'd carry the biggest gun I could handle (but, in an ideal world there would be no need for any guns).

I carry what I'm comfortable carrying (concealing). If I could get a .40 or .45 the size of my P3ATs (without breaking my wrist shooting it) that's what I'd carry.

I'd love to carry my Walther P99 (.40) but it is too big for me to conceal comfortably all day, everyday.

 

[Jeff White]

Eleven Mike said;

What a couple of girls. I carry a 150mm Palladin, concealed, at all times. I wear it even when nude, and no one has ever noticed. Let's just say it's not the biggest gun I carry.

You slacker, bought the compact version of the M109A6 Paladin 155mm howitzer for CCW!

Jeff

 

[Eleven Mike]

Doh!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Many folks will buy a new gun at a gun store, one or two boxes of ammo, and show up to a CHL class to shoot their gun for the very first time when they qualify, not having read the owner's manual, not knowing how to make the gun run, not knowing how to load magazines or cylinders.

Boy, is that the truth! I used to frequent a range that had a lot of classes. The very first thing the instructor always told the class was "This is a concealed handgun class, not an introduction to firearms. If you never handled a handgun before, please feel free to stay and complete the CHL class, but during the break I want you to go outside and sign up for an Introduction to Firearms class. I will let you do your range qualification for your CHL at the end of the Introduction class." Invariably, one or two (usually older ladies) would sign up for the intro course.

The times I've qualified I always get tickled at the people who hear the "Fire" command and proceed to bang!bang!bang! away at the target, often completely missing it from as little as three yards. Then they stand around for three or four seconds while the rest of us actually put our shots where they are supposed to go.

Brad

 

[OEF_VET]

You slacker, bought the compact version of the M109A6 Paladin 155mm howitzer for CCW!

Heck, Jeff, I usually pack an M-110 for CCW. If I'm going into a not-so-nice neighborhood, I'll bring along a couple "Special Weapons" rounds. There's nothing like an 8" tactical nuclear round for taking out the local gang-bangers.

 

[Sisco]

Hanging out at my favorite gunshop the owner told me that since they started the ccw classes here he could not belive the stuff people were coming in looking for: Desert Eagle 50AE's, large caliber snubbies - the bigger the better.

Shop owner had a big ole' grin on his face because he knew the people that bought the big heavy stuff would eventually be back for something more reasonable.

Thanks to resources like THR I had already decided that anything I owned was more than I wanted to carry everyday and was looking at other options. I qualified with a full size 1911 but I'll be carrying a Taurus PT145.

 

[LiquidTension]

Yeah sure you bet buddy. Maybe once in a while the big ole 45 can be carried. But the reality is that for every single day carry you need a small 25-auto size pistol.

Umm...there are lots a people that pack a 1911 style weapon on a daily basis. Up until a few months ago my Pro Carry was the only thing I ever used for concealed carry - every day for 4+ years, even in the dead of summer here in the South. The only reason I now carry anything else is when clothing doesn't permit me to untuck my tshirt. In recent months I've picked up a P3AT and a 642. The Pro Carry still sees more carry than the other two combined.

Back on topic, at my CWP class the range required a minimum of a .25acp IIRC. I had the only 1911, there were several snubbies, a Glock, and a few I can't remember. As many other people have said, I don't think the majority of the people in the class actually ended up carrying on a regular basis. The one guy that outshot me (by a fair margin, I might add) was probably the only other one that carries regularly today. Most other people were there for basic instruction, I believe.

 

[Cousin Mike]

My CHL class, at the time, seemed pretty basic - and to an extent it was, but reading some of the stuff in this thread I'm glad mine was taught the way it was.

First, you weren't allowed to bring your own guns or ammunition. You used range guns and factory ammo provided by the range. Of course, one dumbass brought his gun into class anyway, but he was promptly asked to take it back outside and leave it there, and there were no other issues. Calibers fired in the course were 9mm, .38Spl, .357 Magnum, and .45ACP.

The in-class portion was taught with S&W 5906's, and S&W airweight snubs. A lot of time was spent on the basics of running a gun, as we had a lot of people in my class with no gun experience whatsoever. Out of 18 people, maybe 4 or 5 of us were shooters.

The shooting and qualifying part was fun. We shot in the dark with tactical lights and all that good stuff. That part was actually kind of stressful, but I did better at the low light shooting than anyone else in the class by far. I was outshot by 2 fellas during qualification - I blame it on that damn isocoles stance they had us using. I'd never shot isocoles before that class. As a tall guy used to a modified weaver, shooting at low targets... well, that was kind of challenging at first.



IIRC, I qualified with a Sig P228. They had a huge assortment of everything you could ever want. 6" SS revolvers to airweight snubs, Sigs, H&K's, custom 1911's, everything S&W had to offer. The hardest part of the class, for me, was choosing what I wanted to shoot.

8 hours in class, 4 hours on the range.. $159 for a weekend class, very well done, very professional. Some of the folks in my class were annoying at best. A couple of the guys and one of the ladies were downright weird, but most of them were cool. I even hang out with one or two of the guys I met in my class. We had a young kid who just couldn't quit with the scenarios...

"Let's say I'm at Wendy's getting something to eat, but as I pull up to the drive-thru window, I notice there's a robbery taking place inside... Would I be justified in shooting from my car to stop the threat inside the restaraunt?"



We had a little middle aged lady who was absolutely terrified of anything larger than a .22 lr. I have to admit, it was kind of funny watching her flinch like crazy with every shot.



There was a 50-something black lady who would take breaks to laugh and hyperventhilate between shots of .357 Magnum and .45ACP - she was a blast though. Once she got over the noise and recoil, she did pretty well.



My favorite was a 75 year old schoolteacher who was there with her husband.. And she could probably outshoot most of you fellas. She was the only other person in the class (other than me) who CHOSE the .357 airweight snubs I caught a few stray eyes, no doubtedly wondering - "So just what are these two giving eachother the thumbs up about?"

Everyone qualified. No one did anything unsafe or stupid. Our instructor, Rich, was very knowledgeable, and if the man has an ego at all, he left it at home for the class... I was really impressed. The other instructors were very good as well. No Hi-Points, no .380's, no mouseguns, no egos, no BS.

All very practical, real world stuff.

www.nasr.com for anyone in central Ohio who wants to get their CCW.

And by the way, half the time I'm carrying (which is 99.9% of the times I leave my house), I'm carrying a Sig P220. The other half I'm carrying a SIG Pro in .357 or .40. I've carried a full-size 1911, and a 4", 44oz., 8-shot .357 Magnum... I've never been made, and never had any issues carrying a full size gun. I'm 6'1" and 240#.

I guess some folks just ain't that great at carrying concealed.

 

[CNYCacher]

privelege, not a right ??

The most interesting thing in MY "safety class" was the instructor stating something to this effect:

Owning a handgun is not a right, it is a privilege. You are granted this privilege by the state and it can be taken from you.

 

[Famine]

Hmm...being new to handguns, and also someone who is looking at taking the CCW class this winter, I've found this thread interesting.

As for my view on things...

I own one handgun, a Glock 21. When I went to the shooting range to shoot a few guns before I bought anything, the range officer thought I was an idiot for “starting” with .45’s. I’d been planning on owning a .45 for a long time. The money (which I don’t have a lot of) was finally there and the opportunity was right. Now, if I couldn’t “handle” the .45, then I could see someone looking down his nose at me. However, my hands and frame are big, and I only plan to get better. Turns out I did pretty good on my first day.

It is not too comforting to know that everyone is going to judge me at a CCW class if I bring my G21. It’s almost as though some are saying, if I can’t hit the center of the target every time, then I should even consider carrying such a big gun. On the other hand, if I carry something small, and still can’t hit the center target every time, it’s okay…I’m just learning? That’s a crock.

ANYONE taking a CCW class, regardless of his/her gun IS in fact taking steps in the right direction. If they were not meant to carry a gun, then they won’t pass the class. If people do pass the class that shouldn’t, then the fault is in the class itself.

When I bought the Glock 21, I was fully aware of two things: I am going to get a CCW, but this gun is too big to carry all the time. I’m fine with that. I don’t have the funds to buy more than one gun…at least not this year.

One thing I did pick up from this thread, however, is that I will be taking some shooting classes before the CCW class, which I think everyone should do. I don’t think I’ll be perfect by the time the CCW class rolls around, but that’s okay because I’m taking steps in the right direction. There are enough anti-gun folks out there to argue with and make fun of; we don’t need to be doing it among our ranks.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Just took a CCW class myself and if I may crow just a bit...
(10 rounds from an XD-40 at 20 ft after a holster draw)



But don't misunderstand, this grouping was earned the hard way by a lot of prior practice at the range!

My instructors were all top-notch but they damned well better be since I was at NRA HQ

One guy was shaking so badly after a few .45 ACP rounds that the instructor made him stop and go back into the lounge to sit for a while. I overheard him suggesting to the guy that he get a different gun and some practice time and then take the class again.

The ladies in my class seemed to favor wheelguns, mostly .38 specials. I don't know if they made that choice or were steered into it by someone else who thought that's what a lady should have.

One guy had a CZ-52 (7.62x25) and insisted that it really was going to be his CCW gun. At least he was good at shooting it but man I wouldn't want to be anywhere downrange while he's perforating a bad guy! There might just be a -little- overpenetration happening there

 

[bender]

I plan to take the class next month. Don't know what gun to take it with, but I'm leaning towards my browning HP due to its reliability and accuracy. I hardly ever shoot it, however, so I don't have a lot of experience with it.

My brand-new ruger P345... well, it jams on some of my reloads, so I don't want to take it and have problems...

I still have my first gun... a Colt M1911 bought over 20 years ago, made in 1922, which is supremely reliable... I have shot it more than any other gun I have. maybe I should take the class with that one, sentimental reasons you know

 

[Brad Johnson]

My brand-new ruger P345... well, it jams on some of my reloads, so I don't want to take it and have problems...

Your problem is clear and the the solution is self-evident.

Not taking the gun because of a problem it has with your reloads is akin to not wearing a shirt because it clashes with the tie you made for it.

Brad

 

[Jac]

mdao said:I'm a mild manned, 5'6", 175 lb engineer. I'm not part of the submerged "gun culture" by any stretch of the imagination. My dress style falls pretty close to the "dress casual" standards listed by AJ Dual, 'cept I replace the Khakis with jeans a lot.

I carry whenever I'm not at work, and always have a Scandium SW1911 with slim grips or a S&W 3914 on me. I use cheapo High Noon tuckable holsters at 3 o'clock with both of them. The clips on the tuckables are modified to work with my cell holster to camoflage them. Alternately, the 3914 + Smartcarry + pleated Khakis also works really well when I can't IWB carry.

The only carry issue I've run into is that I'm need slightly larger shirts to when carrying a full sized 1911, as I'm not thick enough to hide the butt of the pistol. No problems with that on the CCO style pistol I'm building up though.

I figure, I'm already carrying 15 lbs of extra weight, what's another 3 lbs going to matter?

Very similar to me... I'm a little taller (about 5'11"), and actually pretty scrawny (I could use 15lbs. ), but I manage to conceal a full size, steel 1911 in a single-clip tuckable (which I'm going to upgrade eventually, hopefully to something like a Sparks VM2. It's not uncomfortable, just shifts a bit). I don't carry every day, but that's because of company policy.

But every time I strap a pistol on my beanpole frame, it's a 5" 1911. And it disappears.

 

[Eleven Mike]

Famine,

I also started out on a .45 automatic. Usually, one learns marksmanship better, more quickly, more easily and less expensively with a less powerful cartridge. Usually, if a person is serious about learning to shoot, one starts with a "lesser" cartridge. Now, if this will be your only gun for self-defense, at first, it may not be wise to get a .22, but a .45 Auto might not make sense, either, if you would shoot better with a .380 or (ick) 9mm.

Best of luck to you.

 

[J. Parker]

I just saw a concealed carry class segment on the program "Shooting Gallery" on The Outdoor Channel. The fella in charge of the class said the 380 was a no-no. I agree. Why carry a 380 when a quality 9mm is the same size? Can carry double the ammo? And when stoked with modern, up-to-date 9mm ammo ALOT more effective?

I like Makarov's and slick little Sig P232's as much as the next guy but not when there are many, better choices for concealed carry.

~John

 

[BGlaze250]

This is kind of off-topic, but what was "anemic" mean in this situation? I have never heard about it in reference to handgun caliber, just as the blood disorder. Anyone care to enlighten me?

 

[J. Parker]

The term "anemic" is often used to describe "lesser" calibre's such as 380's, 32's, 25's or lesser calibre's than say a 9mm. Anemic in this case meaning "weak" or "weaker". Some folks even classify the 9mm as "anemic". To each his own I guess.

~John

 

[BullfrogKen]

BGlaze250 said: This is kind of off-topic, but what was "anemic" mean in this situation? I have never heard about it in reference to handgun caliber, just as the blood disorder. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Since I was the one that used that term, I'll clarify.

Yes, anemia usually refers to a low red blood cell count. I'm familiar with the term as a condition not uncommon to those who suffer from certain illnesses. Weakness and tiredness are common symptoms.

I used term anemic to describe a relatively weak or low powered cartridge. I am persuaded "convention carry" handgun cartridges are marginally effective at best. Very low powered cartridges, in very small handguns, function reliably in ideal circumstances. In less than ideal circumstances, such as a poorly acquired one-handed grip, or a less than rigid hold, often induces malfunctions. Revolvers can alleviate functioning problems, but not a weak round's effectiveness.

 

[BGlaze250]

Thanks for the information. Learn new things every day.