Concealed carry class: interesting observations

[OEF_VET]

My first pistol was a Hi-Point .380. Having shot one, extensively, you won't hear me bad-mouth their reliability - they just plain work. If that is the best a person can afford, then I'd rather see them able to defend themselves with a Hi-Point than be unable to defend themselves without that $1,000 ubercoolgun that they're still saving to buy.

However, check with those people in six months or a year, and see if they're still carrying those Hi-Points. My guess is that less than 25% of the people will be carrying their's. Another 25% will have bought another gun to carry, for whatever reason. And, I'd wager that a full 50% of them will rarely, if ever, actually bother carrying their guns at all. Of those 50%, half of them will likely decide that there aren't enough threats in their day-to-day lives to justify carrying, and the other half will be turned off by the weight of their Hi-Points. Of course, those numbers are just my opinion.

Hardtarget,

Where did you take your class that they required a centerfire handgun? There is nothing within the Tennessee statute which requires the handgun be centerfire. I have a feeling I can guess the instructors name.

 

[mpmarty]

Size Does Matter,

but the juxtaposition of firearm size and projectile size has limits. I carry a 21oz (w/mag but no ammo) .45 acp which is no bigger than my .380 PPK in two dimensions its thickness is about a third wider than the ppk and the weight with eleven 185gr Barnes solid copper rounds in place is more like 2½ pounds. I carry it sob or iwb at four o clock. The weapon is striker fired dao and is much smaller than the Glock 30 I just dumped at the local gun store, it has a better trigger, and even has a 1911 type safety if I choose to use it. A set of Trijicon sights and it has everything I need in a CCW buddy.

Marty in Oregon

 

[Fu-man Shoe]

I'm suprised to see that my little 'ol thread has generated so much discussion!

A few points...

It seems like more than a couple of folks are getting all wrapped around the axle
about some relatively minor things. Effectiveness of mouseguns, The quality
(or lack thereof) inherent to the Hi-Point brand of firearms, etc.

That really wasn't my original point to come and stir that same old pot.

I was just thought that it was quite interesting that out there in the real world
those are the kinds of guns that people are carrying on a daily basis.

Chea-...*Ahem*..."inexpensive" guns... small caliber guns... old guns...

I think that sometimes as "firearms enthusiasts" we sometimes tend to get
into this mindset of what's "best", be it most reliable, most effective, more
tactical than thou, and so on, and sometimes forget that beyond the
protected confines of the gun boards, there is a whole world out there of
normal people out there, carrying normal everyday, non-fancy, non-tactical,
non "Ultimate CCW" guns.

It would appear these people have never logged onto an internet gunboard
and found out that their Hi-Point is junk, or that the .380 ACP cartridge is
extremely weak, and that "if they're serious about defense, they'll choose a
caliber that starts with a .4", or any of the other myriad lines you constantly
seen thrown back and forth on the internet

Maybe someone should send them the memo.

On the other hand, they seemed to be doing just fine as it was.

 

[Jeff White]

On the other hand, they seemed to be doing just fine as it was.

And most of them will continue to do fine for their entire lives. That is because just like most cops, they will never actully press the trigger in anger.

Maybe someone should send them the memo.

Some may get the memo, we can just hope they don't get it delivered by having a gun/ammo combination they decided on based soley on cost fail them.

My personal opinion is that if most gun culture people paid what their high speed low drag carry gun cost for good training and bought a surplus SW Model 10 to carry they'd be much better off.

Jeff

 

[BullfrogKen]

Fu-man Shoe said: I was just thought that it was quite interesting that out there in the real world those are the kinds of guns that people are carrying on a daily basis.

Don't bet on it. The majority of people with carry permits simply don't carry a gun. Its viewed as a talisman that can ward off the bad spirits. Some also feel that a gun in a glovebox equates to being armed.


I'm glad to see them exercise their rights to get a carry permit. But I'd put money down that of the people who take a class of that nature - a weekend or series of evening classes simply designed to fulfill a state's requirement for a permit - that in six months, 10% might actually carry it more than once a month.


The real world might be eating McDonald's for lunch and a microwave meal for dinner every night, too. It doesn't mean its appropriate or condusive to good health.

 

[ezypikns]

As shooting enthusiasts,

we sometimes forget that some of these folks taking these classes probably won't shoot their weapons again. We see our weapons two ways, as a viable tool for self defense, and objects of pure enjoyment. I think most of us were shooters well before we decided to opt for a concealed license.

 

[Axman]

It really boils down to one thing, most bad guys are afraid of being shot by ANYTHING. I had an acquaintance who was assaulted by a guy with a .22LR semi-auto rifle. The assailant fired about 5 rounds into him (point blank range) and two of those bullets shattered the humerus in his right arm. One round punctured his right lung. Realizing that a .22 can and may do some rather harsh damage to a person's body is what these bad guys are afraid of happening. I say if all you have is a .22 or .25ACP or even a .380, use it!

 

[Crosshair]

The SSS 60 grain 22 Long rifle ammo in a revolver can do some serious damage

 

[Sir Aardvark]

When I took my CCW class the Police officer who taught it held up one of the participant's firearms and said "Friends don't let friends carry .380's".

 

[Eleven Mike]

Well, if the .380 is so wimpy, why don't you go downrange while I...nevermind.

 

[evan price]

That kind of snobbery speaks volumes as to why we gunnies are perceived poorly. We can't even treat our own fellow gunnies with respect. Personally a .380 is as small as Iwould go... but.. as the man says, a gun in your pocket beats a gun on your nightstand.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Sir Aardvark said: When I took my CCW class the Police officer who taught it held up one of the participant's firearms and said "Friends don't let friends carry .380's".

Well, embarassing a student like that certainly is inappropriate.

evan price said: That kind of snobbery speaks volumes as to why we gunnies are perceived poorly. We can't even treat our own fellow gunnies with respect. Personally a .380 is as small as Iwould go... but.. as the man says, a gun in your pocket beats a gun on your nightstand.

Cheap guns aren't often reliable. REALLY cheap guns, in anemic calibers, are notoriously unreliable. Combine really cheap, anemic, with inexperience . . . . and that gun is worse than worthless if you actually need to use it. Not simply display, but actually use it. I'd rather have a $20 baseball bat.


People may show up to these obligatory classes with ugly, inexpensive, or inappropriate guns. But we're not discussing taste. It is the responsibility of those with wisdom to pass it on to those who are ignorant. Tactfully advising the owner of better choices is part of the education process.


As I mentioned before, most of these folks won't carry it. Those that become shooters eventually, one way or another, graduate onwards from the Jennings and find something of better quality. Its not snobbery to state the reality that some guns are very poor choices to use to defend our lives.

 

[kengrubb]

Well, embarassing a student like that certainly is inappropriate.

Back in the day, a trip to Gunsite with anything OTHER than a 1911 in .45 ACP was a recipe for a first rate razzing.

Its not snobbery to state the reality that some guns are very poor choices to use to defend our lives.

No law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun. The handgun is the primary weapon for defense against unexpected attack.

FBI Academy
Firearms Training Unit
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[Kankujoe]

I guess in those days you also walked 15 miles both ways uphill to school in the snow.

The .380 caliber has been used effectively in many countries by many police departments and many armys over the years.

While the ballistics of the .45 are more impressive the .380 is still an effective round for PD.

Insulting newbee's like that creates enemies not allies and in this day and age we need more allies in the politics and public opinion of the "gun world."

 

[Jeff White]

What deptartment issues .380s to anyone but a plainclothes officer? In fact I only know of one that did that for awhile.....I've seen it on a couple approved lists for off duty carry, but I'm not aware of any American police department that issues .380 for primary, duty use.

Jeff

 

[Kankujoe]

Prior to WWII many European & Asian police departments and governments issued .380s to their police and soldiers.

My point is that the .380 round has been successfully used in many situations for years. Just because it is common practice today to use 9mm, 40 & 45 now does not negate the effectiveness of calibers used in previous generations.

 

[Jeff White]

I think if you'll check, most of the European police departments issued .32 ACP, even more anemic then .380. I don't believe .380 was ever popular as a duty weapon in the US. We went through our .32 stage, but after the development of the .38 S&W most agencies went to that and then to .38 special.

We didn't know what we now know about terminal effects and wounding mechanisms back then. Wound ballistics is a pretty new science. It rally wasn't well understood until Dr Fackler began working on the issue.

Jeff

 

[Kankujoe]

You are correct that the .32 caliber was more popular but the .380 caliber was also widely used. And both of these calibers were used around the world for police, military and personal defense.

Yes, of course we know more today about ballistics and wound characteristics but the debate is never ending. Shot placement is the primary concern not caliber. Many a small statured person or female can handle a .32 or .380 but can not handle a .45, especially with the recoil of a compact or subcompact pistol most acceptable for CCW. Most encounters would have 2-5 rounds fired. Two to five rounds of .380 handled easily (confidently controlled) is better than 1, 2, or even 5 rounds of .45 handled poorly (with muzzle flip shots would be all over the place).

I am not attempting to say that the .380 is the ideal caliber but it is an acceptable caliber for PD and for CCW. It is the one I choose to carry and I have several options to choose from. Heck I even have a revolver that takes .410 shotgun or .45 Colt but it is not what I want to CCW with.

My position is that there is a continuum of effective calibers for PD that will suit personal and individual choices, especially when it comes to CCW.

Insulting a newbee is counterproductive and extremely arrogant, it is not educational or even helpful. And it is a bad thing to do on many levels.

 

[Jeff White]

You can educate someone without insulting them.

It was educational helping in my friends gunshop and seeing all the people for whom self defense meant the cheapest pistol they could find to put in the nightstand drawer.

Over the years I've carried everything from .22LR (Beretta 21A in a vest holster as a BUG) to .45. I even carried my PPK/S off duty for awhile. I've come full circle and carry the first pistol I ever bought, a Colt MK IV Series 70 Government Model. It conceals well with about everything I wear and is comfortable to carry. It's also essentially the same as my duty pistol.

As a trainer I will say that if you show up for a class with an unreliable weapon, you're not going to learn much. Again, you can eduscate most people without insulting them.

Jeff

 

[Double Naught Spy]

And most of them will continue to do fine for their entire lives. That is because just like most cops, they will never actully press the trigger in anger.

Very profound, Jeff...and very true. Sometime back, I read about a lady that repelled a home invader with her "husband's gun" while he was away on a trip. The hubby's gun worked great, but the wife never pulled the trigger and it was a good thing she didn't as she would have learned the gun was unloaded.

In regard to smaller calibers having been used for a long time in other places by military and police departments, that is not necessarily because those guns or calibers are the best choice for defense. When you are talking about industries like law enforcement and the military, you are dealing with bigger ticket issues that run into finances, vendor benefits, appeal to the lowest common denominator of gun handling where smaller calibers can be controlled by just about anyone in the department, but larger calibers maybe cannot, etc.

My point is that the .380 round has been successfully used in many situations for years. Just because it is common practice today to use 9mm, 40 & 45 now does not negate the effectiveness of calibers used in previous generations.

Right, but at the same time, just because the .380 has been used does not mean it is as effective as the larger calibers.

FYI, in looking at the information in the way you have, I don't think I have ever seen a report showing a gun used by any major department as not being used successfully. The question is more of whether or not they could have been more successful with larger calibers.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the notion of "If it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me" kind of reasoning. The only person it has to be good enough for is me, based on my situation, my needs, my kills, my ability to pay for said appliances, etc. What folks did in Hong Kong in the 1920s or Berlin in the 1950s or Dallas in the 1990s is immaterial as I am certain their reasons for their selection of guns and their situations are not the same as mine.

 

[lbmii]

"Oh yeah I carry my big ole 45 and it conceals just fine." Yeah sure you bet buddy. Maybe once in a while the big ole 45 can be carried. But the reality is that for every single day carry you need a small 25-auto size pistol. The Kel Tec 3AT fills this role pretty well.

I see it all the time. People go out and buy a baby version of a large caliber handgun with the idea of daily concealed carry and they try all sorts of holsters, and the untucked Hawaiian shirt or the fishing vest in the middle of summer techniques, and then they abandon their efforts eventually.

When I am in a high-risk area or during the winter when I have a big coat the Glock 27 or the 357 Mag goes with me. But for every single day carry I go with the Kel Tec 3AT.

I will tell you right now that people who talk big about how they carry their big ole pistol and how it's no big deal are not being totally honest. Yes they might carry that big ole pistol on occasion but not everyday.

A 380 100 percent of the time is better than a 45 15 percent of the time.

Let's try to be intellectually honest when it comes to these discussions.
Every day concealed carry is a challange.

 

[AJ Dual]

Let's try to be intellectually honest when it comes to these discussions. Every day concealed carry is a challange.

For myself, with what little carry experimentation I can do here in WI, I agree with you. I also find it a bit irritating to get carry advice from gun magazine authors, or people on NRA/Shooting TV shows who live and work in, gun shops, at ranges and training facilites, write/work from home, or otherwise live the majority of their lives submerged within the "gun culture", where 5.11 pants and a photographers vest are almost "the uniform"...

Most days I wear and do what's probably the most dreadded carry clothing and activity combination, "dress casual, seated all day". Tucked button down shirt or a polo in a pair of khakis. Pocket carry of a .32 or .380, just perhaps one of the ultra-compact 9mm's like the Kahr PM9, is what I can realisticaly manage.

Neat clean cargo pants that aren't too "over the top" would work better, but it's still pushing the "dress casual" envelope a bit. I just can't see Smartcarry and it's ilk working, nor a "tuckable" IWB. Off-body carry, forget it. I'm around nosy IT "gear queer" people constantly flaunting phones, PDA's, and Blackberries on their belts, and IWB tuckable clips would get noticed.

Any kind of vest is out of the question as "weird", sweaters would help, but only half the year here in WI.

So I definitely agree with you lbmii as to what's practical for my lifestyle Monday through Friday. Sub-caliber pocket carry it is. Possibly stretching it to pocket carry Kahr PM9 if I replace all my pants, and I find the right pocket holster. (assuming the elections go our way) My Glock 26 and larger will be what I wear on nights and weekends.

However, I think you're not giving enough credit to those who do carry full size, mid size, and "full size compacts" every day without problems. They're out there, and I believe them when they say they carry these rigs almost all day.

 

[Eleven Mike]

I will tell you right now that people who talk big about how they carry their big ole pistol and how it's no big deal are not being totally honest. Yes they might carry that big ole pistol on occasion but not everyday.

Respectfully, sir, how would you know? People are different. A while ago, I purchased a Mod. 10, and asked the gun-dealer's opinion on whether it was concealable. He was convinced it was not. Asking the same question on THR, I got a resounding, "Absolutely, I do it all the time." Of course, anyone can say anything they want on the internet, but so can any gun salesman. We haven't had CCW very long in this state, so maybe he didn't really know himself. Hadn't gotten used to it, perhaps.

 

[Sistema1927]

In New Mexico, we used to have to qualify with every combination of caliber and action type that we wanted to carry. If you qualified with a .45 auto, you couldn't carry a .40 or a 9mm etc. unless you also qualified with them. Also, if you qualified with a .45 auto, you couldn't carry a .45 revolver or .38 revolver unless you separately qualified with them. Very, very stupid.

Our recent law changed this to where you must qualify with the largest caliber in your action type, so I can cover all bases by qualifying with a 1911 and a S&W .45 revolver. Do I normally carry these for CCW? Seldom. Most of the time I carry a Kahr PM9. There might be the rare case where only a P32 will work, and I might just wear a .45 or a .357 mag under a jacket from time to time. Maybe 5% of the time I carry something other than the Kahr, but when it comes to CCW qualification I shoot the largest so as to keep my options open.

I guess that I posted this for two reasons:
1) to let folks know what goes on in New Mexico (as if you care), and
2) to inject into the conversation that the weapons seen at CCW classes may not represent what is actually carried.

 

[TonyB]

This weekend I took the NRA Personal Protection in the Home class..next sunday is the shooting part....it will be interesting to see what guns people bring...just to throw the curve,I may bring my Rossi 357
I'll have a report.
BTW the class was great,and I got a defense lawyer's card.