Clipper
Member
...And don't read too much into the calibers you see at class. My wife carries a KT .380, but took a (much cheaper to shoot & scarry accurate @ 7yds) Phoenix HP-22 to the range session.
Concealed carry class: interesting observations
- Thread starter Fu-man Shoe
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Geronimo45
Member
Well, 9mm, .38 special, .380 are often touted as the 'minimum acceptable rounds' for self-defense. They're also reasonably cheap for ammo.
Another thing... for experienced shooters, the gun they take to the range shooting part may not be their CC gun. They may haul a longer gun, so they might be able to hit things a little better.
Hi-points? I agree with the 'no accounting for taste' remark - but the price can make a significant difference on what you purchase. I'd love to have a uber-tactical longslide 1911 with an accessory rail, match grade barrel, etc. I picked the GI45 instead... because it saved a lot of money and was plenty good for a non-match-grade shooter.
People carry smaller-sized guns concealed, since they conceal better. Otherwise, I'd say 'to hell with all permits' and carry a 12-gauge under my coat. It's got a lot more stopping power than most pistols and doesn't need a license to carry - but it can't be concealed easily.
Another thing... for experienced shooters, the gun they take to the range shooting part may not be their CC gun. They may haul a longer gun, so they might be able to hit things a little better.
Hi-points? I agree with the 'no accounting for taste' remark - but the price can make a significant difference on what you purchase. I'd love to have a uber-tactical longslide 1911 with an accessory rail, match grade barrel, etc. I picked the GI45 instead... because it saved a lot of money and was plenty good for a non-match-grade shooter.
People carry smaller-sized guns concealed, since they conceal better. Otherwise, I'd say 'to hell with all permits' and carry a 12-gauge under my coat. It's got a lot more stopping power than most pistols and doesn't need a license to carry - but it can't be concealed easily.
I wonder how many of you guys that bad mouth Hi-Points have ever actually shot one?
I don't own one but have handled and fired both a 9mm and .45ACP Hi-Point. They look and feel like a brick in my hand but darned if they don't shoot good. They're blowback operated (which means a fixed barrel) and are pretty darn accurate. On the other hand I'm not mechanically inclined enough to take one down for cleaning which is why I don't have one as a beater gun.
New ones can be purchased at gun shows here in OKC for around $100 for a 9mm and $120 or so for the .45. At that price you could buy it, shoot it until it's so dirty it can't be shot anymore and then dispose of it.
Hi-Points are IMO the only handgun some folks can afford (even at the rip-off prices some of the OKC dealers want for one - ex. Gun World wants $239 for a 9mm - or did a couple of years ago). You get a lot of bang for the buck and from everything I've heard and read both Hi-Point service and the warranty are excellent which can't be said for all of the high dollar gun manufacturers out there (Ruger for example - don't get me started).
I don't own one but have handled and fired both a 9mm and .45ACP Hi-Point. They look and feel like a brick in my hand but darned if they don't shoot good. They're blowback operated (which means a fixed barrel) and are pretty darn accurate. On the other hand I'm not mechanically inclined enough to take one down for cleaning which is why I don't have one as a beater gun.
New ones can be purchased at gun shows here in OKC for around $100 for a 9mm and $120 or so for the .45. At that price you could buy it, shoot it until it's so dirty it can't be shot anymore and then dispose of it.
Hi-Points are IMO the only handgun some folks can afford (even at the rip-off prices some of the OKC dealers want for one - ex. Gun World wants $239 for a 9mm - or did a couple of years ago). You get a lot of bang for the buck and from everything I've heard and read both Hi-Point service and the warranty are excellent which can't be said for all of the high dollar gun manufacturers out there (Ruger for example - don't get me started).
MachIVshooter
Member
Popular doesn't equal best. Popularity is usually the culmination of many things, to include availability and price. The S-10 Blazer has been a very popular small SUV, but it is hardly the best for innumerable reasons.
That, and 8 or 9 out of 10 people in an NRA basic pistol course are beginners. I have helped out a couple of our local instructors on many occasions, and most of the students ranged from generally inexperienced to total newbe's with a BNIB still oily gun or one that they had inherited or been given by a family member or friend. They frequently showed up with the wrong ammunition, no magazine, etc. Not the group one should consult for any type of firearms training or advice.
That, and 8 or 9 out of 10 people in an NRA basic pistol course are beginners. I have helped out a couple of our local instructors on many occasions, and most of the students ranged from generally inexperienced to total newbe's with a BNIB still oily gun or one that they had inherited or been given by a family member or friend. They frequently showed up with the wrong ammunition, no magazine, etc. Not the group one should consult for any type of firearms training or advice.
Starter52
Member
Shoe, this is the most interesting THR thread I've seen this week. Good job.
+1 to everyone who said it's better to hit with a mouse gun than miss with a magnum.
+1 to everyone who said it's better to hit with a mouse gun than miss with a magnum.
Gaucho Gringo
Member
Those people who put down or criticise those who don't own the guns that "you" say they should or criticise their level of expertise are forgetting a couple of things. These people are evidently not antigun people nor are they the ones who are going to vote yes to antigun legislation. I say give them the benefit of the doubt and welcome them with open arms. Take them under your wings and teach them to shoot safely and do not criticise thier choice of firearms. Because if you don't you might as well cut off your right arm.
Hardtarget
Member
I took the class and qualified with a .38. Its all I had at the time and the class information said "any centerfire" caliber.
After the class the instructor informed us that those scoring 70 %, (thats min. for passing), didn't impress him. Also, those scoring 100 % didn't impress him either. Taking too much time for combat. Gotta qualify first.
I have two sons. One used a .38 while the other shot a .40. We all made it.
Use what you can qualify with...then practice to move up if you feel you should.
Mark.
After the class the instructor informed us that those scoring 70 %, (thats min. for passing), didn't impress him. Also, those scoring 100 % didn't impress him either. Taking too much time for combat. Gotta qualify first.
I have two sons. One used a .38 while the other shot a .40. We all made it.
Use what you can qualify with...then practice to move up if you feel you should.
Mark.
The class I took was a bit more than the meet your CCW class. We were expected to show up with 350 rounds, a good holster, and 3-4 extra magazines with a holder. That seemed to exclude inexpensive guns. Calibers were mostly 9mm and .40SW. I had the sole .45ACP.
I expected to learn some new stuff so I used a .45. I figure if I can do it right with a .45 with more recoil and reloads than otherwise than I can do it with a 9mm.
Taken to its extreme I suppose I should try it with a cap n' ball.
I expected to learn some new stuff so I used a .45. I figure if I can do it right with a .45 with more recoil and reloads than otherwise than I can do it with a 9mm.
Taken to its extreme I suppose I should try it with a cap n' ball.
Mulliga
Member
Every time I go to the range, I see people with shotgun pattern groups at seven yards. This is perfectly fine - shooting is a hobby of mine, and not everyone wants to shoot every weekend. There's always someone who's a better shot, after all - we aren't all Miculeks and Leathams. I also see people with cheap guns - Hi-Points, beat-up old revolvers, etc. Again, that's perfectly fine.
When some macho jerk hands his girlfriend a .44 Mag and she flinches so much on the second shot that she knocks out a light fixture, that's dangerous.
When people are horsing around and hitting the walls and floors of the indoor range by shooting gangsta' style, that's dangerous.
When some would-be target shooter decides to impress his buddies and puts his target out at 15 yards and subsequently hits the target holder (spraying richocheting fragments of lead into my face), ...well, you get the point.
If these CCW applicants are not doing any of the above, well, they're already way ahead of a lot of the general public.
When some macho jerk hands his girlfriend a .44 Mag and she flinches so much on the second shot that she knocks out a light fixture, that's dangerous.
When people are horsing around and hitting the walls and floors of the indoor range by shooting gangsta' style, that's dangerous.
When some would-be target shooter decides to impress his buddies and puts his target out at 15 yards and subsequently hits the target holder (spraying richocheting fragments of lead into my face), ...well, you get the point.
If these CCW applicants are not doing any of the above, well, they're already way ahead of a lot of the general public.
I generally agree with what's been said in this thread, but the following statement has always bugged me
This statement assumes that you will hit with the mouse gun and miss with the magnum. It's one of those stupid statements like "you have to score more points to win." Duh! Of course you have to hit to make it count, no matter the caliber.
This statement assumes that you will hit with the mouse gun and miss with the magnum. It's one of those stupid statements like "you have to score more points to win." Duh! Of course you have to hit to make it count, no matter the caliber.
MatthewVanitas
Member
Alternate theories:
1) $: permits are _expensive_ in Texas. What is it, $100 for the class and $150 for the paperwork? That's a big pill to swallow for younger kids. Even with the cheapest of classes and the Indigent Texan discount, you're still looking at $150 total for a permit that costs $45 in Seattle.
2) Awareness: in their age/culture group, there might be more of an awareness (or paranoia) of crime than in younger/slimmer cultural groups. It's an open question as to whether those in your CCW class are actually taking reasonable precautions for their situation, or are freaking out over their 1:1000 chance of facing violent crime vs 1:3 chance of heart attack.
Or, to give them more credit, maybe they've gotten past the "it can't happen to me, I'm invincible" stage that's more common in young people.
-MV
A. Patriot
Member
Remember, the #1 most important thing is to bring a gun to a gunfight.
I don't know how many times I have left my gun at home (or in the car) because it was too heavy or too big.
I don't know how many times I have left my gun at home (or in the car) because it was too heavy or too big.
MachIVshooter
Member
This is true, but in today's market small doesn't equate anemic. There are many, many .357, .40 and .45 caliber handguns that are smaller and lighter than such concealed carry classics as the Walther PPK or COlt detective special, etc. That is not to say that anyone can handle an ultralight compact in such potent chamberings, but if you can, why not?
I walked away from my CCW class with the thought that I should take a Krav Maga class of something like that. Given the rules about matching force.
There were a munber of truckers in my class who were under the impression that they were going to flash their pistol at someone and tell them to get lost. The retired ex-LEO told us all that would justify the person you showed your pistol to to in fact pull a weapon on you.
Plus given the fact that you cannot be a willing combatant, if you are carrying you have to be alot more careful and be willing to walk away.
I mostly am getting my permit to simplify transporting. I live near the border of another state and often times certain roads I take weave in and out of the two states and they have different laws about transport. CCW takes care of that for me.
There were a number of people with 38's who seemed to be the most accurate. One of them had just picked you his pistol new the day before and hadn't shot it yet. He was pretty pleased with it. I considering getting one for pocket carry.
There were a munber of truckers in my class who were under the impression that they were going to flash their pistol at someone and tell them to get lost. The retired ex-LEO told us all that would justify the person you showed your pistol to to in fact pull a weapon on you.
Plus given the fact that you cannot be a willing combatant, if you are carrying you have to be alot more careful and be willing to walk away.
I mostly am getting my permit to simplify transporting. I live near the border of another state and often times certain roads I take weave in and out of the two states and they have different laws about transport. CCW takes care of that for me.
There were a number of people with 38's who seemed to be the most accurate. One of them had just picked you his pistol new the day before and hadn't shot it yet. He was pretty pleased with it. I considering getting one for pocket carry.
I'm not going to deride some else's choice of gun, but I do have some comments.
Regarding .380. I would not feel inadequately armed with one, but I think there are choices that could provide more confidence. I had two fine .380's for some time. A PPKs and a SIG230. I traded the SIG in for a Kahr P9, which is lighter, same size, and shoots the better performing 9mm denfense rounds.
As for the Hi-Point, I would have no problem with that as a house gun, but how the hell does one carry concealed? It's bulky and heavy.
K
Regarding .380. I would not feel inadequately armed with one, but I think there are choices that could provide more confidence. I had two fine .380's for some time. A PPKs and a SIG230. I traded the SIG in for a Kahr P9, which is lighter, same size, and shoots the better performing 9mm denfense rounds.
As for the Hi-Point, I would have no problem with that as a house gun, but how the hell does one carry concealed? It's bulky and heavy.
K
Templar223
Member
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Blackjack keeps much better records than I about what students bring to shoot.
Around here (Central IL), prolly 2/3s of my students are sporting 9, .40 or .45. Usually there are about 10% .380s, 15% wheelguns and each class we will get one or maybe two 'wildcard' with stuff like a 9x18 (what a pain with that Euro-style mag release), .357 sig (that wasn't pleasant), 10mm (whoa!), and a .44 (made him use 'specials').
I've seen Hi-Points only once. Guy was telling me how he got his three "Hi-Points" and accessories like a laser sight, a compensated barrel, etc. "all for less than your [my] Beretta. And they shoot great!"
Yeah, until he started to do malfunction clearing drills right away. I think his wife was ready to throw "hers" at him before the first day was done. I think by the end of the first day, he was using my Beretta and I hooked his wife up with a smallish K-frame S&W that she loved and I don't remember what the son used, but they all 'borrowed' our guns.
Don't let anyone sell you a Hi-Point pistol.
John
ETA: Yeah, I owned a Hi-Point piece of excrement once. Keyholed at 25 feet half the time. Jam-o-matic. Sold it to someone I didn't like.
Around here (Central IL), prolly 2/3s of my students are sporting 9, .40 or .45. Usually there are about 10% .380s, 15% wheelguns and each class we will get one or maybe two 'wildcard' with stuff like a 9x18 (what a pain with that Euro-style mag release), .357 sig (that wasn't pleasant), 10mm (whoa!), and a .44 (made him use 'specials').
I've seen Hi-Points only once. Guy was telling me how he got his three "Hi-Points" and accessories like a laser sight, a compensated barrel, etc. "all for less than your [my] Beretta. And they shoot great!"
Yeah, until he started to do malfunction clearing drills right away. I think his wife was ready to throw "hers" at him before the first day was done. I think by the end of the first day, he was using my Beretta and I hooked his wife up with a smallish K-frame S&W that she loved and I don't remember what the son used, but they all 'borrowed' our guns.
Don't let anyone sell you a Hi-Point pistol.
John
ETA: Yeah, I owned a Hi-Point piece of excrement once. Keyholed at 25 feet half the time. Jam-o-matic. Sold it to someone I didn't like.
Eleven Mike
Member
Good.
Who cares how cheap a Hi-Point might be? If you can't be reasonably sure your automatic is reliable, for heaven's sake buy a used .38 Special revolver. Automatics are great, but not when you don't have the money or experience to make sure they're reliable. Of course, revolvers aren't perfect, either, but let's be realistic.
At least, that's the decision I made, and I'd like to know if there's a better one. I like 1911's but couldn't afford a Kimberfield. Rather than take my chances with a cheap auto, I bought a used Mod. 10.
kengrubb
Member
Actually, it's $60 in Washington state for a new 5 year license and $32 for a 5 year renewal.MatthewVanitas said:
kengrubb
Member
I carry my 40 (Glock 23) all year long--even over the past couple of unseasonably hot summers here in the Northwet.Srigs said:
gbran
Member
The instructor in my last 2 renewal classes (every 2 years in CA) carries a Glock in 45acp and chastised everybody for carrying anything less. His rule was nothing less than a .45 and preferably only a Glock. The guy is fairly knowledgable, but he was carrying on a love affair in front of the class............ with himself. I wish I could find someone else giving classes around here.
Crosshair
Member
Where I live, used revolvers are expencive. You can't find a used centerfire revolver for anything less than about $275 and many of those look really worn and are not in that great of shape. For some people, a Hi-Point is expensive. They fill a need in the market.
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