mummac
Member
You know I mentioned the ankle holster but didn't mention pocket carrying a Kel-Tec P-3AT. They are alright if you get them working properly and don't feel the .380 is undersized.
Concealed Carry Conundrum. . . Long, but need Suggestions?
- Thread starter Shake
- Start date
- Status
Zundfolge
Member
Whether or not the rules would change if his co-workers found out, it sounds like he works with antis. Antis tend to be small minded people who are not capable of rational thought (at least when it comes to guns) so if they found out he'd probably be treated like a registered sex offender or John Tesh fan something equaly awful.
I think before I started carrying there, I would make it a point to let your co-workers know you are not comfortable being touched ... if they don't get the point then tell your supervisor that a "hostile work environment" is being created and maybe a memo that says "Please don't touch Shake" (maybe with a threat of "sexual harassment re-education seminars or something) could make the rounds.
Where I work there is no policy about CCW ... but I too am afraid that if they knew I carried they would come up with an anti CCW policy (upper level management has shown their hand by publicly ridiculing a security guard who wanted to carry a gun). So I understand the need for "Deep cover". Thankfully I don't work with a bunch of touchy-feely people (and if anyone in my department found out I carried, I doubt it would be a big deal .... as long as nobody in HR or management found out).
Thanks for suggesting the pocket and Thunderwear/Smartcarry options. I really hadn't given them much thought. I will now. I am a little worried about the pocket carry as I get involved in meetings and frequently move around the office. I'm afraid that any pant pockets that allow me to carry that way may open when sitting enough to see the butt of the gun.
For those of you who use the Smartcarry/thunderwear, Could I get away with a Khar K9 in that system, or would I have to go smaller (PM9)? Are there any strange bulges when sitting? Seems like sitting might also be a problem (i.e. thighs may push the gun up toward the belt?).
I'm not sure I could get away with ankle carry. . .
Anybody have links to a holster maker that makes the planner style off body carry options? I've thought of this because I carry a backpack and always have a planner in there. I could leave it there while in my cubicle. I'm honestly not that concerned right now about speedy access. for the time being, I'm just trying to get a method that allows me to have a weapon. My main issue with this is security. In other words, I don't want to be worrying about a snoop finding my firearm while I'm riding the porcelain bus. I think the chances of this are remote, but they exist.
TallPine,
I've given subtle and not so subtle hints to people, but some people do it as a natural way of communicating. Ironically one of the worst is a fellow permit holder. I avoid putting myself in that position as much as possible, but sometimes I just can't help it. I've thought about telling them flat out to keep their hands to themselves, but have decided against it for various reasons. I have taken to wearing a knife (clip folder) strongside tucked into my waistband and clipped to my pants. Most people haven't noticed and nobody's bumped that yet.
Quartus,
Right on the rule, not close on the line of work. People I work with may be a little more anti than the social workers.
If I chose to go with a tuckable IWB holster, is the Versa Max II the way to go?
Shake
For those of you who use the Smartcarry/thunderwear, Could I get away with a Khar K9 in that system, or would I have to go smaller (PM9)? Are there any strange bulges when sitting? Seems like sitting might also be a problem (i.e. thighs may push the gun up toward the belt?).
I'm not sure I could get away with ankle carry. . .
Anybody have links to a holster maker that makes the planner style off body carry options? I've thought of this because I carry a backpack and always have a planner in there. I could leave it there while in my cubicle. I'm honestly not that concerned right now about speedy access. for the time being, I'm just trying to get a method that allows me to have a weapon. My main issue with this is security. In other words, I don't want to be worrying about a snoop finding my firearm while I'm riding the porcelain bus. I think the chances of this are remote, but they exist.
TallPine,
I've given subtle and not so subtle hints to people, but some people do it as a natural way of communicating. Ironically one of the worst is a fellow permit holder. I avoid putting myself in that position as much as possible, but sometimes I just can't help it. I've thought about telling them flat out to keep their hands to themselves, but have decided against it for various reasons. I have taken to wearing a knife (clip folder) strongside tucked into my waistband and clipped to my pants. Most people haven't noticed and nobody's bumped that yet.
Quartus,
Right on the rule, not close on the line of work. People I work with may be a little more anti than the social workers.
If I chose to go with a tuckable IWB holster, is the Versa Max II the way to go?
Shake
CleverNickname
Member
In my experience, the most important dimension on a gun that's going to be carried in a Smartcarry is the barrel length. The longer the barrel, the more it'll jab you in the leg when you sit down. I could carry my G19 in a Smartcarry if all I did was stand up. My G26 would be doable if I absolutely had to, but the PM9 is actually comfortable the vast majority of the time.
mummac
Member
I wear dockers and have never personally had that problem with the P-3AT. Of course you wouldn't really know until you tried it.
TonyB
Member
If you have a secuirty office and the guys aren't a-holes,maybe you could keep it there while working...that's what I do and I work in a state building....but I am very friendly w/ the security guys,many of whom shoot.....other than that carry at your own risk(you may lose your job)....
TallPine
Member
Shake:
It's up to you - I just won't put up with that sort of thing myself.
It's up to you - I just won't put up with that sort of thing myself.
Good thread with some interesting suggestions... Here's my 2cents....
Given your size and weight I would go with one of the following:
Weapon
1. 1st choice - Kahr MK40 with the hogue textured wood grips and trijicon night sights - very small, flat, powerful, shootable, accurate. The wood grips are a must as they improve control, ability to grasp the weapon and improve the recoil characteristics. Weight for someone your size is no issue.
2. S&W J Frame older model with the contoured barrel no underlug - all the benefits of the revolver, esp. the fact that the cylinder allows the grip to ride just slightly away from the body, allowing faster access for the draw.
Holster
I would recommend a good quality belly band worn with about 1" over the belt line.
Weapon location
The weapon could be located in one of 2 places
1. The 4 o'clock position behind your right hip. Access via a "hakathorn rip" (clear your covering garment, grab the shirt over the weapon with the left hand and pull up to expose the weapon, then draw). This is a very fast technique, given the mode of carry. Also, with the Kahr it is invisible. Covered with a good wide belt, you can even deal with the touchy feely crowd.
2. The 11 o'clock position (just to the left of your stomach). You can access the weapon very quickly by leaving a button undone, sliding your hand in and grasping the weapon for the draw. The only issue here is that you have a DAO pistol with no external safety pointed where it can do lots of damage (lots of folks are comfortable with this, your choice)
Best,
Paladin7
Given your size and weight I would go with one of the following:
Weapon
1. 1st choice - Kahr MK40 with the hogue textured wood grips and trijicon night sights - very small, flat, powerful, shootable, accurate. The wood grips are a must as they improve control, ability to grasp the weapon and improve the recoil characteristics. Weight for someone your size is no issue.
2. S&W J Frame older model with the contoured barrel no underlug - all the benefits of the revolver, esp. the fact that the cylinder allows the grip to ride just slightly away from the body, allowing faster access for the draw.
Holster
I would recommend a good quality belly band worn with about 1" over the belt line.
Weapon location
The weapon could be located in one of 2 places
1. The 4 o'clock position behind your right hip. Access via a "hakathorn rip" (clear your covering garment, grab the shirt over the weapon with the left hand and pull up to expose the weapon, then draw). This is a very fast technique, given the mode of carry. Also, with the Kahr it is invisible. Covered with a good wide belt, you can even deal with the touchy feely crowd.
2. The 11 o'clock position (just to the left of your stomach). You can access the weapon very quickly by leaving a button undone, sliding your hand in and grasping the weapon for the draw. The only issue here is that you have a DAO pistol with no external safety pointed where it can do lots of damage (lots of folks are comfortable with this, your choice)
Best,
Paladin7
BHPshooter
Member
LOL, It must be a Utah thing. I agree. I have a bubble. You pop my bubble, and there's going to be repercussions.
My younger brother is actually one of those "touchy-feely" people. Maybe that's why I usually can't stand him.
Anyway, Shake, I'd say smartcarry sounds like a good thing, unless you are a talented liar (a useful skill!) so that you can say, "Did you feel my bony hip? Sick, huh?"
Good luck. It's a real shame that such essential rights are the target of such bigotry.
Wes
Black Snowman
Member
I got beat up a lot early in grade school and when my family moved to a nicer town touchy feely types were instinctively put into an arm lock. I finally broke that habit in college. It gets the point across that you like you're personal space though
I don't nessisarly advocate this method as it doesn't exactly make you popular. Telling people firmly that it makes you uncomfortable is usually enough to make them see lawsuits fly before their eyes and stop.
I don't nessisarly advocate this method as it doesn't exactly make you popular. Telling people firmly that it makes you uncomfortable is usually enough to make them see lawsuits fly before their eyes and stop.
Zundfolge
Member
I just had a thought ... maybe you should get both a good IWB holster and some sort of off body holster. When you come in in the morning, go to the bathroom and transition the gun from your IWB to your off body holster ... put the off body holster into a lockable drawer (assuming you have one) and then in the evening before you leave, take your off body holster to the bathroom and transfer the gun back to your pants.
I may start doing this.
I may start doing this.
ksnecktieman
Member
May I suggest, either a keltec p32, or a P3AT, with the factory belt clip. have a buttonhole made in an undershirt, directly behind your shirts breast pocket. The gun is light enough, .32 or .380 are both lightweights, in stopping power, but rule one is "always have a gun". Your co workers touchy feely habits will probably never touch you on a pocket with somethin in it (cmall notebook, tablet, smokes?). When needed a superman draw should be fast enough. Left hand rips shirt open, right hand draws. Or remove button and sew it to left side of shirt where the button hole is, and secure shirt with a tiny piece of velcro (tiny so your drawing hand can seperate it on the way in). Do you have to wear a tie at work? Maybe center chest would be better? Waste a t shirt cutting slots and experimenting. When you decide where the best two spots for carry are, mark them and have someone, create button holes there.
No holster to add bulk to an already tiny pistol.
good luck, and prayers that you never need it
No holster to add bulk to an already tiny pistol.
good luck, and prayers that you never need it
pytron
Member
You stated (IIRC) that you don't have anything lockable in your cube.
Maybe you could get a small fire safe (like this one) to store your firearm in. The only problem would be transitioning when arriving and departing work. You could say that you keep backup CDs or other important docs in it (so the cleaning staff can't take them). Of course, a regular old cash box could work, but the fire safes tend to have better locks (ie not pickable with a paperclip) and people are less like to pick them up and shake them (since they weigh like 30 pounds).
If you combine this with day-planner carry, you could just lock your day planner inside the safe during the day and then take it out at night.
I personally am in a similar situation (no rules about CCW, but potential problems if found out) and find pocket carry with a Kel-Tec P-32 satisfies my desire for protection while affording me great concealability. I also have a Smartcarry holster and agree with the previous poster that barrel length makes all the difference.
-Pytron
Maybe you could get a small fire safe (like this one) to store your firearm in. The only problem would be transitioning when arriving and departing work. You could say that you keep backup CDs or other important docs in it (so the cleaning staff can't take them). Of course, a regular old cash box could work, but the fire safes tend to have better locks (ie not pickable with a paperclip) and people are less like to pick them up and shake them (since they weigh like 30 pounds).
If you combine this with day-planner carry, you could just lock your day planner inside the safe during the day and then take it out at night.
I personally am in a similar situation (no rules about CCW, but potential problems if found out) and find pocket carry with a Kel-Tec P-32 satisfies my desire for protection while affording me great concealability. I also have a Smartcarry holster and agree with the previous poster that barrel length makes all the difference.
-Pytron
dfariswheel
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 6,656
Here's a few links for organizers and other "non-traditional" carries:
http://www.ballisticreview.com/falgal/fannypacks.html
http://www.shado.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=CP
Also try Coronado Leather.
http://www.ballisticreview.com/falgal/fannypacks.html
http://www.shado.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=CP
Also try Coronado Leather.
WonderNine
member
Shake, I'm in the same situation as you and for work, I've resigned myself to pocket carry. And most of the time I pocket carry anyways, so it's no big thing.
Get yourself a nice small gun, nothing larger than a Kahr MK9/PM9 and you should be alright. Although you may prefer a Kel-Tec in .32 or .380 for size and weight, or a Seecamp in .32, an Autauga in .32, or a Colt Pocket 9 in 9mm. Even a Colt Mustang pocketlite in .380 should work.
Get yourself a nice small gun, nothing larger than a Kahr MK9/PM9 and you should be alright. Although you may prefer a Kel-Tec in .32 or .380 for size and weight, or a Seecamp in .32, an Autauga in .32, or a Colt Pocket 9 in 9mm. Even a Colt Mustang pocketlite in .380 should work.
combine smartcarry w/pocket & off body (for non-weapons)
Shake, I have the same issues that you have. I often find myself in an anti-rkba/carry climate and have the same chances of bumping into someone or encountering the "touchy feely". I've been carrying mostly daily for about two years now and a common carry combination for me is a makarov or a Kel-Tec P-11 in my smartcarry COMBINED with a P-32 in my back pocket. Using a back pocket holster with an "antiprint" panel makes the P-32 even more discrete for carry and it is just accessible. And I weigh 260 and no, the gun hasn't broken. Yes, drawing from your smartcarry is a little slower, so the mouse gun in the pocket is more readily available if someone is right up on you. Yes, it's a compromise but I think it works for me.
Also, I started carrying a clutch, a man-bag or whatever you wanted to call it recently and I now carry everything that would normall be in my pockets in that off-body luggage and now i can carry guns, knives, flash lights and extra ammo in my pockets. I think that carrying your gun offbody is a bad ideas unless in certain circumstances that would warrant it, but not for every day. When I can carry on the belt I usually carry a larger weapon, or if the pants ware baggy enough that day the revolver goes in the pocket to backup the belt gun instead of a P-32. But usually it's always the P-32.
Yes, you can carry a Kark P9 in your smartcarry no problem as it is almost exactly the same size as a Makarov. That gun would go in an "size small" (referring to the holster, not the waist size) smartcarry.
Shake, I have the same issues that you have. I often find myself in an anti-rkba/carry climate and have the same chances of bumping into someone or encountering the "touchy feely". I've been carrying mostly daily for about two years now and a common carry combination for me is a makarov or a Kel-Tec P-11 in my smartcarry COMBINED with a P-32 in my back pocket. Using a back pocket holster with an "antiprint" panel makes the P-32 even more discrete for carry and it is just accessible. And I weigh 260 and no, the gun hasn't broken. Yes, drawing from your smartcarry is a little slower, so the mouse gun in the pocket is more readily available if someone is right up on you. Yes, it's a compromise but I think it works for me.
Also, I started carrying a clutch, a man-bag or whatever you wanted to call it recently and I now carry everything that would normall be in my pockets in that off-body luggage and now i can carry guns, knives, flash lights and extra ammo in my pockets. I think that carrying your gun offbody is a bad ideas unless in certain circumstances that would warrant it, but not for every day. When I can carry on the belt I usually carry a larger weapon, or if the pants ware baggy enough that day the revolver goes in the pocket to backup the belt gun instead of a P-32. But usually it's always the P-32.
Yes, you can carry a Kark P9 in your smartcarry no problem as it is almost exactly the same size as a Makarov. That gun would go in an "size small" (referring to the holster, not the waist size) smartcarry.
Does the new rule replace the old rule, or is it an addtion? Does it just add changes to the original rule while leaving parts of it in place? That could affect what you may think you can do. It's hard to imagine a government agency turning 180 degrees on this subject. Don't be surprised if they refer back to the old rule which was in place when they hired you if you run into troubles.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
I am still practicing with my ''Smart Carry'' ....... which is something i will only use when deep concealment a priority - which is not often.
The appeal tho is i think obvious ... ignoring any ''discomfort'' factors ...... it is right over the ''crown jewels'' ....... you are unlikely to get nudged or patted there .... or even looked at for too long as people would be too embarrassed at being noticed observing your ''bulge''.!!
I bought mine of a size to handle the P series Ruger .... a chunky gun and far from small .. so i think any compact will do well.
It does tho IMO take practice to get used to - but is probably your best bet. Get one .. practice and persevere.
My tuppence.
The appeal tho is i think obvious ... ignoring any ''discomfort'' factors ...... it is right over the ''crown jewels'' ....... you are unlikely to get nudged or patted there .... or even looked at for too long as people would be too embarrassed at being noticed observing your ''bulge''.!!
I bought mine of a size to handle the P series Ruger .... a chunky gun and far from small .. so i think any compact will do well.
It does tho IMO take practice to get used to - but is probably your best bet. Get one .. practice and persevere.
My tuppence.
Thanks for all the ideas. I appreciate what has turned into something of a brainstorm session for me.
I've pretty much decided to explore all of the on-body carry options first, as I just don't like the idea of off-body carry. If I had a secure place to lock my firearm while I was away from my cube periodically, I may think differently.
I'm going to look into the Smartcarry and pocket carry options first. I also may explore the tuckable holster option and just deal with the "touchers" as they happen.
I may adopt a routine similar to what Zundfolge suggested.
I'll think on it a little longer, then make a decision. It may be a month or so, but I'll post back here and let you know how it works out. . .
Majic,
The existing rule (which forbade employees from carrying a firearm) was replaced with a new rule that didn't even mention firearms (no longer forbade them). The attorney general's office provided the impetus behind the rule change when they gave a legal opinion stating that it was a direct contradiction of the concealed carry law to forbid state employees from carrying a firearm legally.
Here is some of the text from the opinion:
Subsection (2) of that statute declares, "[a]ll authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms."
The Legislature has provided that the Department of Human Resource Management "shall establish a career service system" that provides for "recruiting, selecting, and advancing employees . . . equitable and competitive compensation . . . training employees as needed to assure high-quality performance . . . [and] retaining employees on the basis of the adequacy of their performance." § 67-19-3.1. Since the Legislature has not specifically delegated the authority to enact or enforce ordinances, regulations or rules pertaining to firearms to the Department of Human Resource Management, the only issue is whether R477-9-1(5) pertains to firearms. By its own terms it does. Consequently, the rule is not only unenforceable, it is also null and void because it has been promulgated in direct contravention of a statutory provision forbidding such a rule. It is my understanding that based on a similar informal opinion provided to the Governor's Office on October 22, 2001, DHRM is currently in the process of rescinding the rule by January 1, 2002.
The rule mentioned above (R477-9-1(5)) was the DHRM rule that prohibited employees from carrying firearms.
Shake
I've pretty much decided to explore all of the on-body carry options first, as I just don't like the idea of off-body carry. If I had a secure place to lock my firearm while I was away from my cube periodically, I may think differently.
I'm going to look into the Smartcarry and pocket carry options first. I also may explore the tuckable holster option and just deal with the "touchers" as they happen.
I may adopt a routine similar to what Zundfolge suggested.
I'll think on it a little longer, then make a decision. It may be a month or so, but I'll post back here and let you know how it works out. . .
Majic,
The existing rule (which forbade employees from carrying a firearm) was replaced with a new rule that didn't even mention firearms (no longer forbade them). The attorney general's office provided the impetus behind the rule change when they gave a legal opinion stating that it was a direct contradiction of the concealed carry law to forbid state employees from carrying a firearm legally.
Here is some of the text from the opinion:
Subsection (2) of that statute declares, "[a]ll authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms."
The Legislature has provided that the Department of Human Resource Management "shall establish a career service system" that provides for "recruiting, selecting, and advancing employees . . . equitable and competitive compensation . . . training employees as needed to assure high-quality performance . . . [and] retaining employees on the basis of the adequacy of their performance." § 67-19-3.1. Since the Legislature has not specifically delegated the authority to enact or enforce ordinances, regulations or rules pertaining to firearms to the Department of Human Resource Management, the only issue is whether R477-9-1(5) pertains to firearms. By its own terms it does. Consequently, the rule is not only unenforceable, it is also null and void because it has been promulgated in direct contravention of a statutory provision forbidding such a rule. It is my understanding that based on a similar informal opinion provided to the Governor's Office on October 22, 2001, DHRM is currently in the process of rescinding the rule by January 1, 2002.
The rule mentioned above (R477-9-1(5)) was the DHRM rule that prohibited employees from carrying firearms.
Shake
XavierBreath
Member
http://www.smartcarry.com/
Be prepared to loose your job and have difficulty in finding another job if you are discovered.
Be prepared to loose your job and have difficulty in finding another job if you are discovered.
PCRCCW
Member
Very cool....now get a good tuckable or pocket holster and you dont have to worry about legal liability anymore...just the touchy feelies" around the office.
If anyone bumped into the "Smart Carry" and mentioned anything...just say.......I Moonlite as a Porn Star!"
Shoot well.........
If anyone bumped into the "Smart Carry" and mentioned anything...just say.......I Moonlite as a Porn Star!"
Shoot well.........
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