Concealed Carry Overkill?

[David E]

Actually, he was a perfect example of my point. It actually was a 165 yard shot, but in reality he was not in any danger until he fired on the suspect (his own words). He had no official duty to act and was in no immediate danger, and he could be in serious trouble if the dead suspects family files a wrongful death suit.

LD

But the guy needed to be shot, didn't he?

I can think of scenarios where a longer than normal shot might need to be taken. That it's rare is no reason to never practice such things.

(even if it was really feet, not yards, altho I'm real curious which it was now!)

 

[David E]

I said 100 feet.

Which is across the street or a few car lengths or ..... IE; it's not really that far.

and I have a feeling that most people realized I was exaggerating to make a point.

Which was what, exactly?

 

[Skribs]

That it's rare is no reason to never practice such things.

Actually, that is precisely a reason not to practice such things. Like others have said, you have to draw a line somewhere in what you prepare for, where beyond that line you just figure it's something you will have to be unprepared for. For long distance, you draw the line farther than others (pun intended), but that doesn't mean anyone is "lazy" for not doing it or you're "paranoid" for doing so. Should the situation arise, you'll be prepared and they won't. But that can be said about any situation and any level of training.

 

[David E]

Actually, that is precisely a reason not to practice such things.

Well, that's just silly.

First of all, it's fun!

Second of all, no one is suggesting you spend a lot of time practicing such things. But a cylinder or mag spent on the 100 yd steel IPSC target is a fun way to wrap up the range session.

Too many people "know" that a handgun is only good for gunfights inside of elevators, since the gun can't hit anything further away.

This just isn't true, altho the shooter might not be able to hit anything inside the elevator.

 

[Skribs]

Fun is subjective. I'm not saying you're crazy for practicing such skills, but rather that such a situation is very unlikely to arise where you need them, and it's up to the individual to determine whether practicing at that distance is worth it or not. To me, especially right now, it's not worth it. To you it is.

I'm not saying that nobody should practice them because I don't. I'm saying prepare for what you think you need to prepare for. You'll be overprepared until the situation arises, and I'll be wrong when it does

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Old Fuff: On the other hand (in my view) it [a .38 snubby] works fine for a trip to the supermarket, if I bother to be armed at all.

That had been my thinking exactly, until Skribs challenged my thought process in another thread.

I then realized that if I were suddenly and viciously attacked by a couple of perps near my car, it wouldn't really matter whether the attack occurred at the super market, at the ATM, outside the bakery, or in the WalMart lot.

If the attack occurs, my Model 642 Centennial might suffice, or it might not.

After considerable thought on my part, it no longer serves as a primary carry firearm. I may someday get another one and let it share duty. Frankly, I'm leaning a little more toward a Colt DS for backup. (Not just for the sixth round--trigger pull is a consideration).

There is a nearby grocery store in a strip mall that is frequented by people who are rather well off. A month or so ago, there was an armed car jacking. Then, an armed robbery, witnessed by my doctor's wife. More recently, a customer made the mistake of eating her lunch in her car there; two armed men climbed in and forced her to drive her to an ATM. They are now suspects in the murder of a young co-ed last week.

As an aside, the main stores there appeal to organic food cutomers, "green" people, cyclists, kayakers, and so forth--folks who may be perceived by predators as being more likely to have to be connected on their smart phones than to want to be protected by firearms--but that's just speculation on my part. supported in part by the kinds of bumper stickers I see there.

At least some, if not all, of these incidents represent a failure of situational awareness or other tactics, but they do demonstrate that my risk management analysis may have been flawed. If it happens, it happens, no matter where it occurs.

 

[David E]

Fun is subjective.

Enlightenment isn't. People arbitrarily put a maximum effective range on a given caliber or platform. For example, 2" snubbies can't possibly hit anything in purpose past 10 feet, right? While a full size handgun might make 25 yds.

What, is there some kind of crazy force field at 26 yds that makes bullets go awry? No, there's not. Making hits in the IPSC steel at 100 yds with a 2" snub enlightens many. Now they know they need to stop blaming the gun for their inability to hit past 10 feet.

Further, if I want to improve 25 yd skill, either in myself or my students, I shoot at 50 yds, Suddenly, hitting a 25 yd target isn't nearly as difficult as before.

I'm not saying you're crazy for practicing such skills, but rather that such a situation is very unlikely to arise where you need them,

In a SD situation, you're correct, but for educational and enlightenment purposes, you're wrong. Those situations come up constantly.

it's up to the individual to determine whether practicing at that distance is worth it or not. To me, especially right now, it's not worth it. To you it is.

I get the sense that you think this feat is extremely difficult to master and therefore requires a lot of time to build and maintain the skill. It does not.

 

[Skribs]

Enlightenment isn't. People arbitrarily put a maximum effective range on a given caliber or platform. For example, 2" snubbies can't possibly hit anything in purpose past 10 feet, right? While a full size handgun might make 25 yds.

What, is there some kind of crazy force field at 26 yds that makes bullets go awry? No, there's not. Making hits in the IPSC steel at 100 yds with a 2" snub enlightens many. Now they know they need to stop blaming the gun for their inability to hit past 10 feet.

Further, if I want to improve 25 yd skill, either in myself or my students, I shoot at 50 yds, Suddenly, hitting a 25 yd target isn't nearly as difficult as before.

I'm not arguing this. When I said "fun is subjective" it was countering your point that said "its fun".

In a SD situation, you're correct, but for educational and enlightenment purposes, you're wrong. Those situations come up constantly.

I'm not saying they don't show up, but I'd disagree with "constantly". I'm not saying guns can't hit that far. Just that I don't see practicing to hit that far as a top priority.

I get the sense that you think this feat is extremely difficult to master and therefore requires a lot of time to build and maintain the skill. It does not.

How about this: my favorite range has a maximum distance of 50 feet. Therefore it would require me to find another range in town that I will actually go to or find some place out of town where I can shoot freely in order to practice. I'm not saying it's extremely difficult or anything like that, just that it's not something that I consider in the course of my planning.

I am more concerned with a knife weilder or body builder who is on me before I can draw than I am with long range shots.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Here is a simple truth, EDC is all about drawn lines. Its nice to have an AR with ten magazines if a fight breaks out. Its a pain to carry it everyday everywhere. I know, I've done it overseas in the military. I could probably get away with it in Phoenix where I live. But I think its greatly excessive, I've drawn that line. I think a BUG makes a lot of sense, more sense than a spare magazine. Its more than I want to carry. I draw the line there. I started carrying 2 magazines when the flash mobs started happening. Its amazingly easy to do that since my normal dress is 24/7 cargo pants and shorts. I don't really notice it. So even though I think it is really excessive to needs I don't draw that line.

A knife is something I carried before I ever considered carrying a gun. In my youth I fought a lot. I never considered pulling my knife. Its a tool for everyday use that could be used as a weapon. A flash light is interesting. I started carrying one because people suggested it on line. You know, I really use that thing a lot. I'm nocturnal by nature. I don't normally go to bed until four to six AM. So darkness is where I spend most of my day. If I did not carry a gun again I would keep carrying a small powerful flashlight. Its stopped being a self defense item and its become a handy tool.

I put my gun on when I get dressed and take it off when I get go to bed, I do the same with all my EDC stuff. After careful study I have discovered that virtually all home invasions happen at home.

 

[Esoxchaser]

Concealed Carry Overkill?

There is no such thing, just a matter of what is practical.

 

[David E]

I'm not saying they don't show up, but I'd disagree with "constantly". I'm not saying guns can't hit that far. Just that I don't see practicing to hit that far as a top priority.

As an instructor, the opportunities to show what a handgun can do at distance come up often.

How about this: my favorite range has a maximum distance of 50 feet.

Ok, so you don't have the opportunity. I would suggest that when you do, you try some long range handgunning.

I am more concerned with a knife weilder or body builder who is on me before I can draw than I am with long range shots.

As you should be. Speedy accuracy is the goal there.

 

[Skribs]

As an instructor, the opportunities to show what a handgun can do at distance come up often.

Well, that's a different situation than it is for me. I am not an instructor, I do not need to settle "my gun can hit at X yards" bets.

 

[dprice3844444]

well,since i joined the old farts,no butt or hips anymore,i have been delegated to a nice heavy duty pair of sears suspenders to hold up the britches.makes it nice to throw my 26 in my right pocket and 3 g17 sticks alternating hollowpoint/hardball in the other.we sometimes have the boys in the hood come up from miami/ft lauderdale to hit the area,then onto 95 and disappear.imma just the lil ole round guy retired cop.figured i'd givem a run for their money.if i don't ever need it,i'm greatful,but not going to be a victim.

 

[huntsman]

1 gun and an extra mag and most of the time it's a little bitty LCP.

 

[Old Fuff]

If the attack occurs, my Model 642 Centennial might suffice, or it might not.

True, and I agree, but if I have reason to think something may have changed in the situation or environment relative to the threat level I also have a Detective Special and decades of experience using it. And if I don't want to lug around something bigger I can let the car do it for me.

 

[CZ223]

I carry a 1911 and two spare 8 round mags

I started carrying the spare mags just because I thought it was a good idea. I later realized that having the added weight on the opposite of the belt actualy made evrything ride better. Things are more balanced that way. As stated earlier, most malfunctions are ammo or mag related so having a couple of spare mags is only a good thing. I have carried, and will, on occassion, carry a spare gun. Do I need it? I haven't "needed" even one gun yet. A lot of people think no one needs a gun ever, I would repectfully disagree.Does any of this mean that you are undergunned with a G26? Certainly not. Carry what you are comfortable with and remember that you are probably better prepared for a bad situation than 80% of the people out there. Remember, the difference between Paranoia and Preparedness is Perception.

 

[David E]

Well, that's a different situation than it is for me. I am not an instructor, I do not need to settle "my gun can hit at X yards" bets.

No, it's more like, "this gun isn't accurate past ten feet!"

"oh? Mind if I try?"

Bang!...<pause>.....ting!

"seems ok to me..."

 

[Old Fuff]

I do not need to settle "my gun can hit at X yards" bets.

Nope, neither do I, although I learned years ago that my little Detective Special could make me pocket money - out to 100 yards.

Another thing I found out was that if you can hit at 50 feet you can also do the same at 50 and even 100 yards, without much additional practice. If you stand beside your target (in this case we'll say a B-27 silhouette) it's so big. At a longer distance it looks smaller, but actually is the same size as it was when you were standing beside it. If you hold on the image of the head @ 50 yards your bullets should hit in the K-Zone. Elevate the front sight slightly and the same will happen at 100.

The ability is simply another arrow in your skill quiver, something to be used, but only if you decide to do it.

I highly doubt that I will have to use my skill in a real-life, serious situation, but I am reminded of a case where a rifle-armed shooter in a shopping center was driven to cover by an off-duty officer carrying a small revolver who laid down fire at a long distance and pinned him down until backup arrived.

 

[12gaugeTim]

You could always opt for the New York reload rig...

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Armed_Therapist View Post
I said 100 feet.
Which is across the street or a few car lengths or ..... IE; it's not really that far.

Quote:
and I have a feeling that most people realized I was exaggerating to make a point.
Which was what, exactly?

The scrutiny over my comment astounds me. Is there something hard to understand about what I said that I just don't get?

I said:

The extra mags are also for extra sticky situations, such as a mass shooting. Shots might need to be taken from much further away. I may not be too confident about hitting a BG at 100 feet with one shot, but I'd sure be confident about it with 13, 14, or 30 shots.

Now, I was taking an extreme example to illustrate why being over-prepared (an extra mag) isn't such a big deal. I wasn't saying that the 100-foot shot (Again, not 100-YARD) would be a given. But if there was an opportunity for a safe shot (and perhaps not to get closer), then take the shot. Remember, that the people would likely be running away from the guy, not forming a human shield around him. With an extra mag, you have a little more leeway in hitting the guy, hitting him with multiple shots, ie, doing what it takes to bring him down.

It was an extreme example that assumed common sense; I apologize if this offended those lacking it. And like mentioned, 100 feet isn't even THAT far, it's 30 yards. I'm not lobbying for long-range precision shots against BGs.

 

[David E]

Actually, it's 33 1/3 yds

And if you are relying on a hicap mag to make a single hit on a badguy at 100 feet, remember each bullet you send down range has a lawyer attached to it.

I sometimes carry a hicap gun and I always carry a reload regardless of capacity, but my tactic would be to hit the badguy with each and every shot. I might not, but that is my goal.

 

[beag_nut]

Whenever I see comments about "carrying enough ammo" I can't seem to not think about the four NYC cops who fired 41 rounds at an unarmed man (Amadou Diallou) in a blind staircase, and only hit the suspect 19 times. The fact that the guy was hit at all was something like blind chance, since the cops simply began firing in the general direction of the "suspect", who pulled out his wallet for ID (the guy wasn't even moving!). Why don't we try to be a little better than that and make sure (by practicing) that we hit what we intend to hit? It may be an old saying, but practice makes perfect. Wild shooting doesn't do any good. Make each shot accurate and one won't need a box of ammo in one's pocket. Stop believing movie scenarios where there are ten bad guys to one good guy (the movies can't get anything right regarding firearms, anyway).

 

[Noah]

I think part of being a responsible armed citizen is being prepared for any situation. Will a .380 or .38 Sp sub compact in your pocket at the grocery with no spare mags stop a single bad guy with a blade who tells your better half to come with him or he'll stab you in the parking lot? Probably.

What if there are two?

What if one of them has a gun?

What there are three of them?

What if you need to engage at a decent range?

What if what if what if what if...

It's all about personal choices and compromise. If you WILL carry a 5 shot snubbie or mouse gun and would find yourself NOT carrying your S&W M&P9 Full size, then carry the snubbie.

If you think it is worth throwing a full size full capacity semi automatic in your waistband with 2 or more spare mags, you go right ahead.

I say carry as much gun as you can. You never know what will happen, may as well be more prepared. Is a Glock 19 that much bigger than a 26? Is it that much heavier? Are a few spare mags that bad? To some. Yes. To some, no.

 

[harqueb.us]

Edit: whoops, repost.

 

[Mike J]

I never understand why there winds up being heated discussion about people carrying an extra magazine. Personally I live in the Metro Atlanta area & I have seen enough news stories involving multiple attackers not to think that there will only be one person if a situation ever does arise. The whole reason for carrying a gun to start with is not knowing what might happen or where. If I am going to go to all the trouble to carry a gun it is very little more trouble to carry an extra magazine. Just because I have more ammunition on hand doesn't mean I plan on hosing an entire area down with gunfire. It just means I have more available if I need it. You carry what you feel you should. I'll do the same.