Concealed Carry Overkill?

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...where these guys are going that they’re going to need that much firepower?
...
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There is no way for anyone to know for sure where they would be or who they would be facing in the future.

I don't assume every opponent I might face is an "average" mugger who would get scared and run at the sight of me pulling a pistol.

Whether if 5 shot in a gun or 10 magazine load of ammo is insufficient or "that much fire power" totally depends on what you are faced with.

...
Am I just naïve feeling safe with my "baby Glock" or should I start arming up?
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You don't have to carry a back-up
You don't have to carry a spare magazine
As a matter of fact, you don't have to carry anything at all.

It depends on how much you want to put up with and what you want to be prepared for.

Only carrying a "baby Glock" does not make you naive. If you don't have a realistic idea about its limitations, that would make you naive.
 
The magazine is the weak point of any semi auto. Without the magazine, it's fairly useless. Therefore it makes sense to carry a spare IF you carry a semi-auto.
 
It is interesting to see how some posters carry habits, errr..."evolve" over time. Mine sure as heck did.

20 years ago I carried a Bryco-Jennings .380 with an empty chamber in my pocket and thought I was ready for anything.

Then I started reading and got some training.

I still carry a .380 (Ruger LCR) in my pocket; when there is absolutely no way to hide my S&W 3913 anywhere on my body.

I don't put down those who choose not to carry a spare mag, or not carry at all. Me? the only time I don't have at least one spare is when I carry the garbage out to the curb in broad daylight. I've always felt that an extra mag in my weak-side front pocket is so very little extra trouble that, why not do it? I often carry two in a mag holster, and, yes it actually does feel better balance-wise. (oh, the 3913 is a single-stack 9mm, so the mags only hold eight rounds.)
 
...where these guys are going that they’re going to need that much firepower?
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How about my neighborhood? I live in the inner city, and there have been 4 shootings on our block in 2.5 years. In only one of those instances was someone actually hit, but still... and that's not to mention assaults, roberies, and burglaries. It also isn't a whole lot better anywhere else in the city, particularly if you need to "go out." It's only temporary, though. I know 2.5 years is a long time, but it'll be about another year, then we're out. I carry as much as I determine to be reasonable. Usually, that's a minimum of 21 rounds, and I couldn't care any less if some anonymous internet troll thinks that's excessive.

And if you are relying on a hicap mag to make a single hit on a badguy at 100 feet, remember each bullet you send down range has a lawyer attached to it.
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Gee, you think? Stop trolling the thread.
 
Spare magazines and BUG's are great, I always have 2 reloads with anything I carry, even my .45 SA, but here is the reality for long distance shots that a Grand Jury will investigate

1. Were you in immediate danger, could you have retreated or found cover

2. Did you have a duty to react/respond

3. Were you effectively trained/equipped to respond

Each scenario will be unique and distinct, but even with a 100 ft. shot, unless a rifle was used, they will ask how you could see at that distance and short period of time whether the weapon was a long barrel revolver or a Jennings .22.;)

LD
 
David E said:
[/b]

Sounds like you're relying on firing a boatload of bullets to achieve one hit...

More practice is in order.
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A catch 22 at best, reference point #3 in my post. A Defense Attorney will grill you on the stand asking how much you practiced for that "long shot" and why.........were you hoping for an armed confrontation? I've spent the last 30 years watching the depths that bottom feeding lawyers will sink to while interrogating a civilian shooter. Just watch the heat in coming weeks with the NYPD Officers who could answer yes to all 3 points, then just imagine yourself as an untrained civilian in their shoes.

LD
 
After reading the thread again, including new overnight posts, I think I see what I was trying to explain. Different members live in different places, where the threat level and environment are different. What they chose to lug around depends on what they preceive the danger is. What I usually carry in rural Arizona may not be the best choice in inter-city Atlanta, but what one thinks they need there may be way overboard here - at least under most circumstances.

There is also the issue of skill. DavidE is correct in saying that many people underestimate how far a handgun (especially smaller ones) can be effective, and the limiting factor is not dictated so much by the weapon as what the user can do with it. If, for example you can make solid hits at 50 feet with a full-sized pistol, but not with a snub-barreled revolver, by all means carry the former and maybe relagate the latter to BUG status. The statement that "every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached," is not a joke!

If news accounts in your area indicate that incidents are more then not likely to involve more then one attacker go armed accordingly. If not, why carry so much ammunition that you'll likely be lost if you fall into a river?

Last but not least, avoidence is your best weapon, unless you are a law enforcement officer. Use good judgment to stay out of trouble.
 
Lawdawg45 said:
A catch 22 at best, reference point #3 in my post. A Defense Attorney will grill you on the stand....

LD
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You are not required to take the stand.

I agree that you have to decide what's going to "work" for you.

But I have read often on this and other forums about the mindset some folks have about their chosen firearm: that any gun is as effective as any other gun. IE; an LCP is "just as effective as" a Glock 19 or 1911 Govt. While in some cases they may be right, (badguys run away) in other cases they might be dead wrong. (multiple assailants, moving, low light, etc)

If one chooses a small gun or caliber, then it's prudent for them to know the limitations of their choice. Making an effective hit on an armed assailant 100 feet away on purpose might be impossible for some folks shooting certain guns. If the person choosing that guns knows that, then he would be ill-advised to attempt those shots. But it appears that most people do not find out their limitations with their chosen arm, so think they're ready for anything with a sightless .32

On the other side, encountered less often, some folks think that gear and/or ammo will make up for lack of skill. It might, but probably won't.

I understand capacity. It does not mean that they "plan on missing a lot" as many toters of low capacity guns seem to think. I'm sure Armed Therapist doesn't plan on missing, but neither does the snub shooter. Still, making a 100 foot shot is harder with a snub than it is with a Glock. And multiple assailants might require multiple hits, so capacity matters.

And I agree that avoidance trumps capacity or shooting skill every time.
 
On the other side, encountered less often, some folks think that gear and/or ammo will make up for lack of skill. It might, but probably won't.
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While some people believe this, it leads a lot of people to assume that your gear/ammo choice doesn't matter.

And I agree that avoidance trumps capacity or shooting skill every time.
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Sometimes you can't avoid, which is why we carry.

I also argue that I am more concerned with making my training and mindset be with stopping the attack. All my rhetoric is as such. If I can justify to myself that it's a scenario to train for, I can justify to the jury (not the attorney) that I trained for it for good reason. It's out of my hands whether they agree.
 
As long as your not breaking any laws carry as many guns and reloads as you want.I grew up in the Bronx n.y.and never carried a weapon except for a pocket knife and managed to survive.Now I live in rural Georgia and carry everywhere I go. It is comforting.
 
Hi everyone. I'm a new member to the forum but have been lurking here for quite some time. This thread caught my attention and prompted me to sign up so I could post a reply. My cousin is a great guy but whatever he does, he does to the extreme. He carries a Glock 19 as his primary weapon and a Glock 26 as a backup along with two of those rediculously long 33 round Glock mags. With a round in the chamber of both his guns thats 93 rounds at his disposal. I asked him not long ago why in the world he felt the need to carry so much ammo and his response was, "I'd hate to need 93 rounds and only have 92." I asked him, "what if you need 94?" He wrinkled his nose for a minute and then said calmly, "you know, I think I have room on my belt for one more magazine."

THR is a great forum guys. Thanks for all the good information posted here.
 
Usually, that's a minimum of 21 rounds, and I couldn't care any less if some anonymous internet troll thinks that's excessive.
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Realize the trolls will make a one shot stop first time, every time. I'm certain they carry a five shot revolver, but load only three rounds as the average gunfight lasts three seconds and involves three shots fired. If it goes beyond that you are dead. I'm not making this up; I read it on the internet.
 
David E said:
You are not required to take the stand.

I agree that you have to decide what's going to "work" for you.

But I have read often on this and other forums about the mindset some folks have about their chosen firearm: that any gun is as effective as any other gun. IE; an LCP is "just as effective as" a Glock 19 or 1911 Govt. While in some cases they may be right, (badguys run away) in other cases they might be dead wrong. (multiple assailants, moving, low light, etc)

If one chooses a small gun or caliber, then it's prudent for them to know the limitations of their choice. Making an effective hit on an armed assailant 100 feet away on purpose might be impossible for some folks shooting certain guns. If the person choosing that guns knows that, then he would be ill-advised to attempt those shots. But it appears that most people do not find out their limitations with their chosen arm, so think they're ready for anything with a sightless .32

On the other side, encountered less often, some folks think that gear and/or ammo will make up for lack of skill. It might, but probably won't.

I understand capacity. It does not mean that they "plan on missing a lot" as many toters of low capacity guns seem to think. I'm sure Armed Therapist doesn't plan on missing, but neither does the snub shooter. Still, making a 100 foot shot is harder with a snub than it is with a Glock. And multiple assailants might require multiple hits, so capacity matters.

And I agree that avoidance trumps capacity or shooting skill every time.
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If you shoot and/or kill someone, you will appear before a Grand Jury without choice, and while there may not be a Defense Attorney present at this juncture, you will be asked these same type of questions.

LD
 
The guidelines for this place are pretty specific in banning discussion of politics, and therefore, by extension law.

"We have learned from bitter experience that discussions of politics, abortion, religion, and sexual orientation often degenerate into less-than-polite arguments or claims that "my God is better than your God". For this reason, we do not discuss such subjects on THR, and any threads dealing primarily with these subjects will be closed or deleted immediately. Threads which deal with other subjects, but which mention abortion, religion or sexual orientation as a side issue, may be allowed to continue, but will be closely scrutinized, and closed or deleted if they "cross the line"."

We can discuss locality, likely threat, training, gangs perhaps, and how they are armed.

The generally proceedings of a shooting, the effect your firearm will have on that proceeding, are off limits. Law is a political animal, due to who writes the laws(elected officials) who prosecutes crimes(elected District Attorney)
and who tries the cases(judges, often elected). Likewise LEO, since the police chief is generally elected. How these people deal with such situations varies from area to area, and, political situation to situation.

Lets leave these out of the discussion. In a way it also works to some benefit, since to make such discussions valuable you have to deal with a specific place, people, and principals. Let's leave it with Alaska and Louisiana
are more then different states. Even in states you can have totally different political climates in cities relatively close to each other. KNOW your area and situation. Just don't bring it into the discussion here.

I really got thinking about this since many states don't even use Grand Juries.
 
fastest45ever said:
The guidelines for this place are pretty specific in banning discussion of politics, and therefore, by extension law.

"We have learned from bitter experience that discussions of politics, abortion, religion, and sexual orientation often degenerate into less-than-polite arguments or claims that "my God is better than your God". For this reason, we do not discuss such subjects on THR, and any threads dealing primarily with these subjects will be closed or deleted immediately. Threads which deal with other subjects, but which mention abortion, religion or sexual orientation as a side issue, may be allowed to continue, but will be closely scrutinized, and closed or deleted if they "cross the line"."

We can discuss locality, likely threat, training, gangs perhaps, and how they are armed.

The generally proceedings of a shooting, the effect your firearm will have on that proceeding, are off limits. Law is a political animal, due to who writes the laws(elected officials) who prosecutes crimes(elected District Attorney)
and who tries the cases(judges, often elected). Likewise LEO, since the police chief is generally elected. How these people deal with such situations varies from area to area, and, political situation to situation.

Lets leave these out of the discussion. In a way it also works to some benefit, since to make such discussions valuable you have to deal with a specific place, people, and principals. Let's leave it with Alaska and Louisiana
are more then different states. Even in states you can have totally different political climates in cities relatively close to each other. KNOW your area and situation. Just don't bring it into the discussion here.

I really got thinking about this since many states don't even use Grand Juries.
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An interesting stretch. A forum which discusses every aspect of personal protection with a firearm, but ignores the realities of using it, isn't worth much to anyone. The issue of open carry vs concealed carry can be shown to be a political argument, or even the right to carry, but discussions on those topics appear here daily. I understand the differing process in each state, but the reality is that a shooter will be held accountable for their actions in every state, so knowledge of that system is the key. Let's not ignore facts to appease the PC crowd.;)



LD
 
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My take on it is the same as what most likely causes you to carry anyway, the old saying goes "It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it". Would you really want to ever experience "Wow, I WISH I had brought another magazine/gun"? Typical loadout is a primary, backup revolver (if primary isn't a revolver), and one or two extra mags. I carry an LC9 so I've been seriously considering a matching Crossbreed magazine holster, seeing as I only have 7+1.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk
 
Enjoying this thread

I for one am enjoying this thread.

I am getting a good bit of humor from all those that have never been in harms way,telling those that have ,or prepare for it = EXACTLY what they need and why.

I am not at all surprised by any of the posts,but amused by them - heck yea.

I am of the FIRM opinion that once you are in a REALLY need a gun situation,you will find that you will NEVER EVER say ,gee I wish I had brought less ammo or a smaller gun.

Yes,I have been there and done that a few times and the only thing I could have wished for was to not be there. Or to have a lot of friends with guns with me - and to have a MUCH bigger gun and more ammo.

But as most of those that will CCW,we are type 'A' personalitys and as such you cant 'tell us' anything we dont already know.

I would love to hear from any here and following this thread - if they are about to actually change their ' load out' due reading all this information.

I dont really expect to be told that any will change [ type 'A' remember ] but I am very curious.

And if you do change,from what TO what ,would be my question.
 
Interesting discussion. If the OP hasn't figured it out by now, this question is a lot like which gun or ammo is the best...lots of opinions, but it all comes down to personal preference. Carry what you are comfortable with, just make sure you carry.
 
Once upon a time, I arrived at home, unholstered my S&W Model 58, and heard a rattling sound from within the weapon. I removed the grip panels, and the mainspring fell out, in two pieces. While I had carried a second gun occasionally before that time, I did not have a second gun with me when my primary gun failed. Since that broken spring occurred, I had tended to be much more consistent in carrying a second gun.

Years later, when I was living in in a fairly nice part of town, namely Upper Kirby in Houston, a group of five armed robbers attacked a grocery store stock boy, on his way home from work. He was fired upon, from two directions, as they moved in from the east and west, probably communicating with each other via mobile phones. He evaded them by running north, into a business driveway, scaling a gate and then a back fence, and dropping into an apartment complex facing the next street. This happened where I often walked our dog at the time.
Are five cartridges enough to deal with five attackers?

A couple of weeks later, two armed robbers, of a totally different ethnic group,
robbed a couple less than two blocks from the robbery described in the
preceding paragraph.

Someone mentioned, in a previous post here in this thread, a balanced load. I agree! Having a bit of weight on each side can have a notably positive effect on my back muscles. Of course, there are other ways to balance the load, and I am not saying I always wear the second weapon in a way that mirrors the first.

I am fairly, but not totally, ambidextrous. It is nice to take advantage of this by
having a weapon positioned for optimum deployment by each hand.

Injury can happen. It may be problematic to draw if one hand or arm is injured,
and if the injury occurs after the draw, the weapon may be lost. Two of my co-workers are living reminders of this, and authors such as Mas Ayoob have documented plenty of other such incidents.

The FBI shoot-out in south Florida, in 1986, provides several examples of why back-up guns can be a good idea. Two agents actually fired their back-up guns, and others may have been able to use back-ip guns, had they been available. I
am not saying the average THR member is going to get into such a situation; just saying that a careful reading of this incident provides multiple examples of the potential usefulness of a second gun.

Having said all of that, I have no problem with folks who choose to carry one weapon, and/or choose not to carry X number of reloads, or any reload at all. We all choose our salvation, based upon any number of factors. There are times when I carry one five-shot revolver; however rare that may be, it does happen, and I do not feel inadequately armed at those times, though I try to be extra-cognizant of my tactical limitations when doing so.

FWIW, my present usual concealed-carry ensemble is one Ruger SP101, snubby length, plus either a second SP101 or a 4" S&W Model 19. At work, in police uniform, I am armed to the teeth, but that is irrelevant to this thread.
 
Years later, when I was living in in a fairly nice part of town, namely Upper Kirby in Houston, a group of five armed robbers attacked a grocery store stock boy, on his way home from work. He was fired upon, from two directions, as they moved in from the east and west, probably communicating with each other via mobile phones. He evaded them by running north, into a business driveway, scaling a gate and then a back fence, and dropping into an apartment complex facing the next street. This happened where I often walked our dog at the time.
Are five cartridges enough to deal with five attackers?
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I am going to say that 5 assailants is incredibly unlikely. Someone posted stats of a few hundred incidents a while back, and it was something like 25% 1 assailant, 55% 2, 20% 3, and 1% 4 or more attackers. (The 101% is due to me rounding the decimals), Thus, while I can see it being reasonable to prepare for 4+ (should you be in the situation, the unlikeliness of being in that situation is irrelevant) I am mainly planning for 3.

I'm actually considering making the same model gun my primary and backup, so I carry one spare magazine and it works for both. Alternatively, I would carry duty and compact, which most manufacturers allow the larger magazine to work in the compact.
 
A catch 22 at best, reference point #3 in my post. A Defense Attorney will grill you on the stand asking how much you practiced for that "long shot" and why
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This is the most ridiculous notion of the thread.

Just because you shoot as a hobby, no one is going to question why you trained so much if you're involved in a shooting. :rolleyes:
 
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