Confessions Of An 18 Year Old Liberal
- Thread starter Hoplophile
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I'm not attempting to alienate you or win you over. I personally could care less about you or your politics.
AND...as long as the SC upholds RKBA as an individual right (not privelige, that the government can revoke at will) then I'm all set. The reason I'm all set is because there will be a guaranteed check on the governments power over the governed.....whether it be the government of George Wallace or of Bill Clinton.
My point is that the mindset that is often typified by the tag "liberal" is one that want's to impose its "moral" views on other people using the power of government....hence the battle of the mind in the realm of public education.
and that comment proves that you really don't have any clue, let alone understanding of where social conservatives are coming from.
But that conversation would have to go on off line, as the mods have already suffered my loosley related RKBA comments.
Crimp
Member
Thanks for that, Hoplophile. An excellent post.
I wouldn't be too hard on the liberals (I like "collectivists" too!). Some may think they're the owners of selflessness and compassion, but I can think of several antonyms that fit many. We're all different in very human ways, each with redeeming characteristics that may be hard to find, but worth the search.
Welcome to the forum, good luck with your studies and spread the word!
I wouldn't be too hard on the liberals (I like "collectivists" too!). Some may think they're the owners of selflessness and compassion, but I can think of several antonyms that fit many. We're all different in very human ways, each with redeeming characteristics that may be hard to find, but worth the search.
Welcome to the forum, good luck with your studies and spread the word!
The Annoyed Man
Member
Hoplophile, what an interesting post. Thanks for posting it.
Like you, I grew up in an extremely liberal family, and was raised as a hoplophobe. Both of my parents were professors at Caltech. Ironically, my father, who was severely wounded as an infantry 2nd Lt. at Iwo Jima, still owned his service .45 from WW2, which he had kept as a memento of the war. When he died, I inherited it, and thus began my introduction to gun ownership and my 2nd Amendment rights - of which I had been previously ignorant. This in turn eventually led to a complete reassessment of my total social and political underpinnings, and to my regeneration as a born again conservative.
Today, I too am the black sheep conservative of my family.
What I found striking about your narrative was when you said, "I remember at one point when I was 14, my sister and mother almost breaking down in tears (out of fear) when we were alone in a bus station with an elderly black man." That is an accusation that used to be leveled against white conservatives - that we were not open to racial reconciliation and the acceptance of of our brother and sister citizens of color. And yet, here is your nice liberal mother, completely petrified by the threat of an elderly black man. Back in my activist youth - the 1960s - personal friends of mine worked at getting black voters registered in rural Alabama. My own father taught English to poorer inner city blacks in our southern California city to raise their literacy levels as an aid to improving their social condition. They were not afraid of blacks. Rather, they were actively involved in trying to include them in mainstream society, even if it was sometimes messy and untidy to do it.
But that was 40 years ago, and that was what might today be called "classical liberalism" as opposed to "socialist liberalism." For instance, my "classical liberal" father was an ardent anti-communist and would have never supported a government mandated health care system. It is my perception that the closest thing existing in America today to that classical liberalism of the 1960s is the "just left of center" segment of our modern political spectrum. I don't believe that most people who are farther leftist than that in their political beliefs fully understand that kind of classical liberalism, which is why a "classical liberal" in the mold of say Senator Lieberman gets trashed all the time by the more vocal segment of the Democrat party. Classical liberals were about personal involvement in solving what they perceived to be problems of injustice. Modern hard left liberals about about getting government to do it, so that they don't have to get their precious soft hands dirty doing it themselves.
I guess that's my rant. I hope I didn't offend anybody. All I know is that the world makes much more sense when viewed through a conservative lens than a liberal one. Oh, and welcome to the dark side.
Like you, I grew up in an extremely liberal family, and was raised as a hoplophobe. Both of my parents were professors at Caltech. Ironically, my father, who was severely wounded as an infantry 2nd Lt. at Iwo Jima, still owned his service .45 from WW2, which he had kept as a memento of the war. When he died, I inherited it, and thus began my introduction to gun ownership and my 2nd Amendment rights - of which I had been previously ignorant. This in turn eventually led to a complete reassessment of my total social and political underpinnings, and to my regeneration as a born again conservative.
Today, I too am the black sheep conservative of my family.
What I found striking about your narrative was when you said, "I remember at one point when I was 14, my sister and mother almost breaking down in tears (out of fear) when we were alone in a bus station with an elderly black man." That is an accusation that used to be leveled against white conservatives - that we were not open to racial reconciliation and the acceptance of of our brother and sister citizens of color. And yet, here is your nice liberal mother, completely petrified by the threat of an elderly black man. Back in my activist youth - the 1960s - personal friends of mine worked at getting black voters registered in rural Alabama. My own father taught English to poorer inner city blacks in our southern California city to raise their literacy levels as an aid to improving their social condition. They were not afraid of blacks. Rather, they were actively involved in trying to include them in mainstream society, even if it was sometimes messy and untidy to do it.
But that was 40 years ago, and that was what might today be called "classical liberalism" as opposed to "socialist liberalism." For instance, my "classical liberal" father was an ardent anti-communist and would have never supported a government mandated health care system. It is my perception that the closest thing existing in America today to that classical liberalism of the 1960s is the "just left of center" segment of our modern political spectrum. I don't believe that most people who are farther leftist than that in their political beliefs fully understand that kind of classical liberalism, which is why a "classical liberal" in the mold of say Senator Lieberman gets trashed all the time by the more vocal segment of the Democrat party. Classical liberals were about personal involvement in solving what they perceived to be problems of injustice. Modern hard left liberals about about getting government to do it, so that they don't have to get their precious soft hands dirty doing it themselves.
I guess that's my rant. I hope I didn't offend anybody. All I know is that the world makes much more sense when viewed through a conservative lens than a liberal one. Oh, and welcome to the dark side.
And don't forget that just as they assume they know all of your political beliefs because of your gun stance, we won't all be shocked to have a liberal around because we like guns either. You probably share a similar background and political ideology as many gun owners.
Brian Dale
Member
White Eagle, cut Hoplophile some slack. You quoted the following:
Note the words, "nature, or a contract." if Hoplophile had written that rights were all granted by the government, I'd agree with your correction. However, The concept of rights granted by "nature" in the original is the same thing you've refered to here:Hoplophile said:
I don't take issue with your description of how the Bill of Rights lists the rights which the government may not trample; I disagree with your implicit assumption that Hoplophile didn't aleady mention that some rights are intrinsic to human life.Aguila Blanca said:
SaMx
Member
yeah, you know how the "religious left" is always trying to use the government to enforce it's moral views on gay people and abortion.
Limeyfellow
Member
And this right here is the problem. People have really skewed views of what a conservative and a liberal is. A conservative is someone who believes in the status quo of society and believes strongly in keeping traditions and the old ways alive. A liberal believes that society must change and is more willing to accept reform as part of society. Everyone falls inbetween these two extremes.
Enforcing traditional moral values on others is actually a conservative trait. Changing those values to represent a changing world is a liberal trait. Things get rather confusing however.
Take for instance the federal defense of marriage act. That is using the power of government to impose a moral view on to society so is that a conservative or liberal policy? It is slightly more conservative as it wants to give a traditional view of marriage dating back to the 19th century as the perferred method.
Another method would be the right to keep and bear arms. At the time it was introduced it was a traditional well established law that kept the arms out of society, but then comes along a liberal notion under all definition of freedom to own and bear weapons put down in the constitution. This would be a very liberal approach.
Now it can be argued with the current view on gun control has a liberal or conservative bias, since it certainly has both, but it can never be described as a clear cut case. It is changing from a traditional view, however cracking down on a freedom of the people put in by the Government to protect the peoples rights and so is very anti liberal too.
The worse thing that could ever happen when talking about gunrights is to describe it in the moronic conservative vs liberal mindset, as it doesn't work very well and resulted in the worse skewing of definitions.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Easy, Boys
Look, I do realize that the opening post of this thread has clear political aspects.
However, his post was discussing his upbringing in that context and how that related to gun ownership and the perceptions relating to that.
I've allowed more than the usual wandering into the political weeds in this thread, knowing that any useful discussion was going to spend part of its time off the pavement.
Don't let's keep digging at the political philosophy and policy stuff. Yet another cliche isn't going to promote civilized discourse.
Let's keep the discussion centered around the gun rights and liberties component, and leave the "issue chaff" alone.
The man's told us some interesting things that give us insight into some important stuff.
Let's stay with that, shall we?
Look, I do realize that the opening post of this thread has clear political aspects.
However, his post was discussing his upbringing in that context and how that related to gun ownership and the perceptions relating to that.
I've allowed more than the usual wandering into the political weeds in this thread, knowing that any useful discussion was going to spend part of its time off the pavement.
Don't let's keep digging at the political philosophy and policy stuff. Yet another cliche isn't going to promote civilized discourse.
Let's keep the discussion centered around the gun rights and liberties component, and leave the "issue chaff" alone.
The man's told us some interesting things that give us insight into some important stuff.
Let's stay with that, shall we?
Aguila Blanca
Member
Point taken -- and I did see exactly what he wrote. From that, I wasn't sure if he fully understood that the rights from the Bill of Rights are not "granted" by the government but rather are (supposed to be) guaranteed by the government, so I thought it best to clarify any lingering uncertainty.Brian Dale said:
Especially since, at 18, he's probably either in high school or a college freshman, and probably hasn't had the luxery of a history class that teaches the Constitution correctly.
22-rimfire
Member
I found the opening post quite interesting and literate. Remember, he's only 18 years old. When I was 18, I was thinking about where to find beer, women, trout fishing, shooting deer, and of course what I want to do when I grow up.
Oops, I lied. Never drank a beer until I was in college. Girls scared me to death.
Oops, I lied. Never drank a beer until I was in college. Girls scared me to death.
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AStone
Member
Hoplophile, I'm a college-level educator who very deeply values writing skills (and communication skills in general) among his students. (My name is written on bathroom walls because of my essay exams.)
I congratulate you on your well-written essay, on your open-mindedness, on your willingness to share your experiences and perspective in this international forum of strong minded people.
I'll confess something now, myself.
Even though I grew up in a conservative family, and hunted all during my teens and early twenties, somewhere along the way through college I became less enthusiastic about guns. I sold off all of mine during college years in part because graduate school sucked financially, and ramen got old after a few years, but also in part because I got pulled over to (choosing words carefully here to avoid politics) a philosophical position advocating that guns were not the best tools with which to navigate through life. <ahem>
During my doctoral studies, in a particularly hard financial time, I sold off my last rifle: a Marlin 336C in .35 Rem. A couple of months later, on a Friday night, a large, half-naked, drug-crazed man tried to rip the gate off of my courtyard fence, then came over the top of said fence and proceeded to bang on my window with a wild expression in his eyes (I'm talking angel dusted) while my dog barked her butt off in the window and I stood nearly naked dialing 911 with no weapons at my disposal other than a 3' piece of 1" wooden dowel. He was not successful in breaking the triple pane glass in the picture window to get in, and left before the cops arrived.
The next day, I hocked some valued family item and bought a .38 spl. I never turned back, and here I am today on THR, having seen the light. Fear is a powerful persuader.
From day to day, as I participate on this fine forum, I bounce back and forth between, "I'm liberal (but rarely collectivist)" and "I'm conservative". But usually, I acknowledge, I'm simply apolitical, and that's where I'm happiest: I just ignore politics, and appreciate people for who they are.
I'm now a dedicated gun owner (with a preference for ... oh, see my sig line), and a 2A supporter.
We're glad you've joined us. Let your writing skills pervade all the threads you visit, and keep your eyes diverted away from politics (which matter not a whit in the big scheme of things) and focus your vision on the only things that really matter here: guns, their safe, ethical use, and respect for others, regardless of gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or political persuasion.
Nem (AKA Dr. Nem A. Tocyst)
I congratulate you on your well-written essay, on your open-mindedness, on your willingness to share your experiences and perspective in this international forum of strong minded people.
I'll confess something now, myself.
Even though I grew up in a conservative family, and hunted all during my teens and early twenties, somewhere along the way through college I became less enthusiastic about guns. I sold off all of mine during college years in part because graduate school sucked financially, and ramen got old after a few years, but also in part because I got pulled over to (choosing words carefully here to avoid politics) a philosophical position advocating that guns were not the best tools with which to navigate through life. <ahem>
During my doctoral studies, in a particularly hard financial time, I sold off my last rifle: a Marlin 336C in .35 Rem. A couple of months later, on a Friday night, a large, half-naked, drug-crazed man tried to rip the gate off of my courtyard fence, then came over the top of said fence and proceeded to bang on my window with a wild expression in his eyes (I'm talking angel dusted) while my dog barked her butt off in the window and I stood nearly naked dialing 911 with no weapons at my disposal other than a 3' piece of 1" wooden dowel. He was not successful in breaking the triple pane glass in the picture window to get in, and left before the cops arrived.
The next day, I hocked some valued family item and bought a .38 spl. I never turned back, and here I am today on THR, having seen the light. Fear is a powerful persuader.
From day to day, as I participate on this fine forum, I bounce back and forth between, "I'm liberal (but rarely collectivist)" and "I'm conservative". But usually, I acknowledge, I'm simply apolitical, and that's where I'm happiest: I just ignore politics, and appreciate people for who they are.
I'm now a dedicated gun owner (with a preference for ... oh, see my sig line), and a 2A supporter.
We're glad you've joined us. Let your writing skills pervade all the threads you visit, and keep your eyes diverted away from politics (which matter not a whit in the big scheme of things) and focus your vision on the only things that really matter here: guns, their safe, ethical use, and respect for others, regardless of gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or political persuasion.
Nem (AKA Dr. Nem A. Tocyst)
holo, no apologies needed, tampa is a pretty tough town when it comes to crime, so you probably grew up inundated with news stories of crime like i did growing up in orlando... that said, it seems like you are getting wiser, which is something that most of your friends will not do for many years...
next time i make it down to orlando, ill let ya know... come on up and well go make some noise at the range :-D
next time i make it down to orlando, ill let ya know... come on up and well go make some noise at the range :-D
Silvanus
Member
I'm glad you've "done your homework" and made your own decisions though. I never really understood how some people could actually be afraid of firearms (or black people, sorry but that part of your post shocked me the most). A friend of mine wanted to show his girlfriend how to use his Sig P220, just in case there was a situation where she would need it when he's not at home. She refused to hear anything about it. It's kinda funny to me how some people would rather be attacked, killed, even raped than defend themselves. How can you have such a defeatist mentality?!
I honestly can't understand that. It's really sad how our society evolved
Or maybe it has always been like that? Sorry for the rant, I'm really happy to see some people like you starting to think for themselves, well done
Foosinho,
Not trying to further derail this thread just a quick attempt at something I feel very important and pertinent to the OP's question of whether or not our generation will stomp the 2A to death as well as thed the OP's lack of understanding for ANY gun regs (which I almost agree with, see below about schools) We need to align fellow pro RKBA'ers like you, me and OP by speaking the same language, using reliable stats/sources, we will spread more truth than not.
Foosinho said:
Quote:
"So, for most people the question isn't "unfettered gun ownership or banning all guns", it's "what regulations are appropriate, effective (on reducing gun crime and starving the black market), and constitutional". If you hold the belief that any regulation is a violation of the RKBA, well... I'm sorry to say that you are in a radical minority (between 5% and 10% of Americans), and that's an argument you've already lost - and will never win, because (according to SC caselaw) you'll need a constitutional amendment to change. And your arguments are unpersuasive to the vast majority of Americans who agree with the SC rulings. Like me. "
What gun regulations have been proven effective in reducing crime like murder/rape/assault etc? What are your citations? If you look at crime stats from DOJ or CDC websites for murder, rape, assault incidence, (i.e., x bad things/ 1000 people - etc.) There are no significant statistical differences between areas with heavy gun law restrictions and areas with light/no gun law restrictions in the U.S.
While you are correct that the SC determines and has ruled about constitutionality regarding 2A, you are incorrect to make the assumption that "extreme" pro RKBA'ers have lost the gun debate argument and things like the pending DC rulings could overturn past anti SC rulings. We can undo what people like Brady's and others have done to infuence the public/judicial/overall image of how 2A is interpreted.
And remember, it was a minority of pro RKBA'ers that stood up in the American Revolution. Assuming that "extreme" RKBA'ers having asserted that there is WAY too much regulation, even if that means they push for almost ZERO regulation (besides selling UZI's at elementary schools) are going to loose by definition of minority is a little brash.
Not trying to further derail this thread just a quick attempt at something I feel very important and pertinent to the OP's question of whether or not our generation will stomp the 2A to death as well as thed the OP's lack of understanding for ANY gun regs (which I almost agree with, see below about schools) We need to align fellow pro RKBA'ers like you, me and OP by speaking the same language, using reliable stats/sources, we will spread more truth than not.
Foosinho said:
Quote:
"So, for most people the question isn't "unfettered gun ownership or banning all guns", it's "what regulations are appropriate, effective (on reducing gun crime and starving the black market), and constitutional". If you hold the belief that any regulation is a violation of the RKBA, well... I'm sorry to say that you are in a radical minority (between 5% and 10% of Americans), and that's an argument you've already lost - and will never win, because (according to SC caselaw) you'll need a constitutional amendment to change. And your arguments are unpersuasive to the vast majority of Americans who agree with the SC rulings. Like me. "
What gun regulations have been proven effective in reducing crime like murder/rape/assault etc? What are your citations? If you look at crime stats from DOJ or CDC websites for murder, rape, assault incidence, (i.e., x bad things/ 1000 people - etc.) There are no significant statistical differences between areas with heavy gun law restrictions and areas with light/no gun law restrictions in the U.S.
While you are correct that the SC determines and has ruled about constitutionality regarding 2A, you are incorrect to make the assumption that "extreme" pro RKBA'ers have lost the gun debate argument and things like the pending DC rulings could overturn past anti SC rulings. We can undo what people like Brady's and others have done to infuence the public/judicial/overall image of how 2A is interpreted.
And remember, it was a minority of pro RKBA'ers that stood up in the American Revolution. Assuming that "extreme" RKBA'ers having asserted that there is WAY too much regulation, even if that means they push for almost ZERO regulation (besides selling UZI's at elementary schools) are going to loose by definition of minority is a little brash.
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Superlite27
Member
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?!?
O.K. This statement begs the question:
What does your coming sound like?
FourNineFoxtrot
Member
- Joined
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Great post, Hoplophile. Gives me hope to read it. I know it's somewhat belated now, but welcome aboard.
Bobo
Member
Very nice essay! Glad to hear from an 18-year old with a open mind and independent thought.
Maybe there IS hope for our country and the world!
Bobo
Maybe there IS hope for our country and the world!
Bobo
Nightwing
Member
Wow. Just let me say that I'm impressed with you for an 18 year old! The addage "Let no man be looked at with less merit becasue of his youth" really rings true.
Congratulations on taking a step towards making your own decisions and formulating your own opinions.
We're all very proud of you buddy!
Congratulations on taking a step towards making your own decisions and formulating your own opinions.
We're all very proud of you buddy!
It's strange that you claim in this thread that you have never fired a gun. In another thread about ".22 for Self Defense", you make the statement
So which is it? Have you never fired a gun or do you "shoot a lot"? My guess is that this thread is just some creative writing that you decided to do and it probably has nothing at all to do with your actual background.
So which is it? Have you never fired a gun or do you "shoot a lot"? My guess is that this thread is just some creative writing that you decided to do and it probably has nothing at all to do with your actual background.
CountGlockula
Member
Hoplophile, congrats on your revelation...NOW PREACH THE WORD!!!
damien
Member
That is a very good article and is extremely well written for an 18 year old. You should consider editing that down a bit and see if a newpaper might take it as an reader sumbmitted opinion piece (rather than as a letter to the editor which would have to be shortened to the point of meaninglessness.)
Stevie-Ray
Member
Now where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, it was about 30 years ago in Pravda.
Hoplophile, welcome aboard and good luck changing the face of your community.
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