CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
No, its about as ugly as a mud fence, but I do think it is nice the way it is 100% ambi. I like the profile, just because it is so compact.
Considering a PS90
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Maverick223
Member
The chosen (designed) chambering isn't my favorite (though with the original FA design considerations it has proven to work quite well), but it is a very handy little rifle particularly in SBR form (the full-length bbl isn't that bad, but is unnecessarily long and limits versatility).
mastiffhound
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I have to say I was interested in either the PS90 or the AR-57. The amount of ammo that each has in a magazine is just awesome. I was hot for the 5.7x28. I was all geared up to buy a upper just a month ago at a local gun shop. That was until my friend who own's the shop steared me away from them. He explained that the ammo is quite expensive, and knowing that I reload told me that reloading for 5.7 can be dangerous and costly. He said the 5.7 has a special coating and reloading them isn't recomended and by warranty standards is forbiden. He also said if the firearm blows up in your hands not only will you probably be hurt but your gun won't be under warranty because it specifically states you can't use reloaded ammo.
He knows me well and my budget for fun. That is me. As for anyone else if you can spend the money on the ammo to feed it then sweet! Just take into consideration it will be one wallet sucking beast! I still want one but I just can't justify the ammo costs when I can buy and reload .223/5.56 for far less money. I say get what makes you happy.
He knows me well and my budget for fun. That is me. As for anyone else if you can spend the money on the ammo to feed it then sweet! Just take into consideration it will be one wallet sucking beast! I still want one but I just can't justify the ammo costs when I can buy and reload .223/5.56 for far less money. I say get what makes you happy.
Driftertank
Member
I had to laugh at this, especially since any reference to the P90 series immediately brings to mind a favorite nickname that a rather geeky friend of mine has for them: the "Abydos Typewriter..."
(for the non-geeks, Abydos is the name of the planet they travelled to in the Stargate movie)
Ammo for the 5.7x28 is pretty scarce right now. It's usually not too expensive though; wholesale costs are about $20 a box right now, so when it's in stock at stores it's around $22-25. I have 4k rounds on backorder here @20.74 per box; http://www.fivesevenammo.com/shop/
Problem is, it's an election year again, and FNH reduced their manufacture of the round in their factories for the first 7 months of 2012. So until late July, ammo will be scarcer than snipe on a snipe hunt.
At ~41 cents a round, it's on par with brass reloadable .223.
So not sure where you're getting that it's a "wallet sucking beast"... sure, not cheap, but what in this sport isn't cheap?
You want a wallet sucking BEAST, we can go talk about 50 BMG in another thread. Costs me a small fortune to shoot my Barrett!
Problem is, it's an election year again, and FNH reduced their manufacture of the round in their factories for the first 7 months of 2012. So until late July, ammo will be scarcer than snipe on a snipe hunt.
At ~41 cents a round, it's on par with brass reloadable .223.
So not sure where you're getting that it's a "wallet sucking beast"... sure, not cheap, but what in this sport isn't cheap?
You want a wallet sucking BEAST, we can go talk about 50 BMG in another thread. Costs me a small fortune to shoot my Barrett!
FIVETWOSEVEN
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I guess you didn't notice that Trent was talking about performance from the Carbine vs. your link showing handgun performance. 11.2" of barrel does make a difference you know.
Maverick223
Member
Brassfetcher used both a PS90 (equipped with a 16in. bbl) as well as a Five-seveN (4.8in. bbl); neither exceeded 10in. with the loads tested. BTW, the P90 uses a 10.4in. bbl.
Maverick; not entirely true...
Brassfetchers charts show FN-SS197 penetrated to 10.6" (calibrated) out of the FN Five Seven handgun. (BTW, that's plenty deep enough for my needs / desires on home defense given the accuracy of the carbine and the desire to LIMIT penetration for the sake of my kids/pets.)
Brassfetcher.com also has done more testing on EA's commercial ammo. The test they did with the FiveSeven HANDGUN were > 10" (blew out the back of the 10" blocks they were using - and that was *20%* ballistic gel, not *10%*. They have some really cool high-speed footage on their website and youtube showing the round hitting. I wouldn't want to get hit by one...
The FN factory ammo is downloaded considerably from the full power (e.g. law enforcement) loads. The decision to restrict muzzle energy was a conscious one by FNH to avoid having the platforms banned for being "armor piercing", since the full power loadings in a handgun will penetrate through body armor. (Those factory loadings should still penetrate through armor out of a carbine, I believe, but they come just shy of it out of the handgun.)
Although I personally don't like EA and won't buy their gimmicky reloaded ammo (guy is a frigging zealot, and if I'm shooting reloads *I* want to be in control of every step), independent tests on their ammo show it's generally between 12-14".
Plenty of handloads on FiveSevenForum.com can easily (and safely) equal their velocity.
Brassfetchers charts show FN-SS197 penetrated to 10.6" (calibrated) out of the FN Five Seven handgun. (BTW, that's plenty deep enough for my needs / desires on home defense given the accuracy of the carbine and the desire to LIMIT penetration for the sake of my kids/pets.)
Brassfetcher.com also has done more testing on EA's commercial ammo. The test they did with the FiveSeven HANDGUN were > 10" (blew out the back of the 10" blocks they were using - and that was *20%* ballistic gel, not *10%*. They have some really cool high-speed footage on their website and youtube showing the round hitting. I wouldn't want to get hit by one...
The FN factory ammo is downloaded considerably from the full power (e.g. law enforcement) loads. The decision to restrict muzzle energy was a conscious one by FNH to avoid having the platforms banned for being "armor piercing", since the full power loadings in a handgun will penetrate through body armor. (Those factory loadings should still penetrate through armor out of a carbine, I believe, but they come just shy of it out of the handgun.)
Although I personally don't like EA and won't buy their gimmicky reloaded ammo (guy is a frigging zealot, and if I'm shooting reloads *I* want to be in control of every step), independent tests on their ammo show it's generally between 12-14".
Plenty of handloads on FiveSevenForum.com can easily (and safely) equal their velocity.
Having said the above... I would like to re-iterate for the fourth or fifth time in this thread that the lack of penetration is the precise reason why I choose to keep it at the ready here.
Granted, there are other options in all common calibers - plenty of 9mm, 40, and 45 loads available that penetrate < 12".
But given the choice between handgun and rifle, if I'm going to bring a gun to a potential gunfight against an intruder, I'd rather have the rifle nearby. More stable, more accurate, et. None of my other rifles are nearly as compact or fast to get on target (my FS2000 comes close, but I'm not shooting 223 in my house, ever.)
The low-light sights really sealed the deal. When I had my old PS90 with the donut-of-death-crap optics, it sat in the cabinet. I MUCH prefer that 2nd gen PS90 sight over the tritium sights on my Glock 21 or even an Eotech (don't have to hit a button to turn them on or fiddle with brightness to turn them down...)
For the same reasons (penetration) when I travel and stay in hotels, I pack along the Five Seven. You *KNOW* any direction you shoot in a hotel, except perhaps out a window (which doesn't really fit with a defense purpose), will potentially have a person occupying that space. If I need to defend myself, I want enough to put a hole in an assailant but want to keep the chances of over penetration to a bare minimum.
Could pull of the same thing with 45ACP, I'm sure, as there are a lot of rounds (hydroshock comes to mind) that penetrate ~9" in ballistic gel, but the real world isn't a block of gelatin. Heavy 45 rounds carry with them inertia - they will retain more energy THROUGH objects than lighter rounds will.
So for indoor use, where you're worried about what might lie behind the wall, a lightweight high velocity round makes a heck of a lot of sense. Sure, 5.7 and every other bullet that has enough energy to fatally wound someone WILL go through a wall, but the lighter bullets will shed energy MUCH faster than heavier bullets.
Just my .02.
Didn't really expect to get quite THIS involved in a conversation about the cartridge, but I always enjoy a good debate. There's a lot of pros AND cons to any cartridge/firearm, it's really all up to the individual to decide what fits their desires and needs.
Granted, there are other options in all common calibers - plenty of 9mm, 40, and 45 loads available that penetrate < 12".
But given the choice between handgun and rifle, if I'm going to bring a gun to a potential gunfight against an intruder, I'd rather have the rifle nearby. More stable, more accurate, et. None of my other rifles are nearly as compact or fast to get on target (my FS2000 comes close, but I'm not shooting 223 in my house, ever.)
The low-light sights really sealed the deal. When I had my old PS90 with the donut-of-death-crap optics, it sat in the cabinet. I MUCH prefer that 2nd gen PS90 sight over the tritium sights on my Glock 21 or even an Eotech (don't have to hit a button to turn them on or fiddle with brightness to turn them down...)
For the same reasons (penetration) when I travel and stay in hotels, I pack along the Five Seven. You *KNOW* any direction you shoot in a hotel, except perhaps out a window (which doesn't really fit with a defense purpose), will potentially have a person occupying that space. If I need to defend myself, I want enough to put a hole in an assailant but want to keep the chances of over penetration to a bare minimum.
Could pull of the same thing with 45ACP, I'm sure, as there are a lot of rounds (hydroshock comes to mind) that penetrate ~9" in ballistic gel, but the real world isn't a block of gelatin. Heavy 45 rounds carry with them inertia - they will retain more energy THROUGH objects than lighter rounds will.
So for indoor use, where you're worried about what might lie behind the wall, a lightweight high velocity round makes a heck of a lot of sense. Sure, 5.7 and every other bullet that has enough energy to fatally wound someone WILL go through a wall, but the lighter bullets will shed energy MUCH faster than heavier bullets.
Just my .02.
Didn't really expect to get quite THIS involved in a conversation about the cartridge, but I always enjoy a good debate. There's a lot of pros AND cons to any cartridge/firearm, it's really all up to the individual to decide what fits their desires and needs.
Maverick223
Member
You're absolutely right, missed that one.
While I'm not a big fan of the cartridge (just because it has limited utility, nothing less, nothing more) I don't doubt that it can get the job done, just trying to point out the data available (which unfortunately I misquoted). I'm still waiting for them to chamber the booger for the .30Carbine, now that's something that I can get behind! Either way, it's a carbine that is on my short list.
It can fill a very specific role. But it's a very narrow one, at that.
Earlier this year I was using it quite often to dispatch moles which were tearing up my garden. Would take the PS90 out with me when I'd garden. When I saw the ground move I'd go get my dog Kojak. I can point at the ground (He's a husky/german shepherd mix), say "DIG!", and he starts digging, following the tunnel with his nose. When I see the mole fly out with the dirt, I pull him off, grab the PS90, and execute a coup de grace.
Overkill perhaps, but fun, and gives me and my pup some daddy-doggie time together.
BTW, some anecdotal evidence... 45ACP 185 grain penetrates 10" in my soil in a nice skinny hole, slug can be recovered with a shovel; 5.7x28mm fragments and blows a 3" wide by 4" deep crater out, no pieces bigger than 2 grains can be found.. viscious little rounds. Predictably, not much left of the moles when I chuck them out in the woods.
Plus, it's quiet enough my neighbors don't complain.
Earlier this year I was using it quite often to dispatch moles which were tearing up my garden. Would take the PS90 out with me when I'd garden. When I saw the ground move I'd go get my dog Kojak. I can point at the ground (He's a husky/german shepherd mix), say "DIG!", and he starts digging, following the tunnel with his nose. When I see the mole fly out with the dirt, I pull him off, grab the PS90, and execute a coup de grace.
Overkill perhaps, but fun, and gives me and my pup some daddy-doggie time together.
BTW, some anecdotal evidence... 45ACP 185 grain penetrates 10" in my soil in a nice skinny hole, slug can be recovered with a shovel; 5.7x28mm fragments and blows a 3" wide by 4" deep crater out, no pieces bigger than 2 grains can be found.. viscious little rounds. Predictably, not much left of the moles when I chuck them out in the woods.
Plus, it's quiet enough my neighbors don't complain.
nyresq
Member
Shot one at the rnage one day, guy next to me was asking about my POF308 and I started asking about his PS90. We let each other shoot a magazine and I had a blast with the little 5.7. Zero recoil and pretty comfortable to shoot.
If I had some spare cash and was looking for a fun gun, it would be on the list!
If I had some spare cash and was looking for a fun gun, it would be on the list!
Peter M. Eick
Member
My shooting buddy has one and I keep thinking of buying one. Some day when the price is right I will grab it. Very nice compact design and easy to shoot well. I see it as a nice replacement for my M1carbine for the house. It would be just a lot more handy in hallways and the like.
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