Cooper's Third Rule And Revolvers

[Cosmoline]

I confess, I routinely violate one of Cooper's rules when it comes to revolvers--No. 3. And I see only limited need for it in that context. Cooper developed his rules for big bore single action pistols, specifically for his beloved 1911. And in that context it's not only a good idea, it's essential. There is no safe way to even touch a single action pistol's hair trigger, and it's a huge mistake to assume the safety is on or that it will prevent an ND if you squeeze.

But for single action and double action firearms, there is another hold that predates Cooper by generations. Thumb on the uncocked hammer, then finger inside the guard on the trigger, but not pulling it. That is, the thumb verifies that the hammer is uncocked, and the figer rests inside the guard. You'll find most older revolvers are designed to be held this way, and it's quite difficult to keep your index finger outside the trigger guard. In this configuration, it is impossible to fire the revolver without cocking it. And if the index finger gets a mind of its own and squeezes, the thumb will stop it. The fingers also act to guarantee no obstructions tangle with either the hammer or the trigger. It of course has no application with bobbed hammers or DAO revolvers. But for standard wheelguns I use it while drawing but before shooting, to ensure total control over the lockwork of the revolver. The method prevents dangerous hangups on the spur or triggerguard, which are a particular concern with revolvers.

Am I crazy?

 

[Jim March]

Noooo....not crazy. I think one big issue here is that a lot of the triggerguards are too small, esp. with gloves on.

I'm starting to think that modern SA revolvers, esp. transfer-bar guns like the Rugers would be better off with the front half of the triggerguard cut off, "Fitz" style. This wasn't unknown back in the SAA days, and any number of factory spur-trigger guns of that era are also known. The NAA Minirevolvers are among the last of that breed.

With those exposed triggers, keeping the booger hook off the bang switch is actually easier because you don't have to go "probing" for the trigger's position.

Take the classic "about to go into a dark and creepy place where there's an unknown noise" scenario. You've drawn a piece, but you're not quite sure whether or not that piece of metal under your finger is the triggerguard or the trigger. When amped up some or have gloves on (or both) this is a serious question...all too often by stroking it to see what it does. Which depending on gun type could be a bad thing.

I think we're kinda probing around too, at this same problem in different ways.

I intend to swap grip frames on my New Vaquero anyways and am considering a Fitz job on the replacement.

 

[LAH]

When drawing sixguns I normally have my finger on the trigger before the gun gets on target but not before clearing the holster.

I hunt with fleese like gloves and while sitting on stand my gloved finger is inside the trigger guard with the sixgun in my lap. The thumb tells me, as Cooper would say: "If my peice is cocked man"

The above applies to Ruger Blackhawks and Smith & Wesson sixguns which is all I shoot...........Creeker

 

[Imaginos]

Rule 3 is Rule 3. The Gun Doesn't matter

I agree with the idea of using the thumb to control the hammmer. Just not the rest of it. I follow Rule 3 religiously regardless of weapon model/style.

Once I have identified my index point on the frame of the gun and trained my trigger finger to go there, I know exactly where the trigger is in relation to the index point. This applies to my Ruger P90, SBH, SP101, and Old Army.

Consistent training breeds consistent performance under stress.

FWIW, I have also seen some folks who rest the back of their trigger finger against the inside front of the trigger guard. Seems almost as safe as keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, but not enough for me to be comfy. YMMV

Elmer Keith had a lot to say about cutting away the trigger guard and it was not positive. Check out his book "Sixguns" before you start hacking off parts of your gun.

 

[Sistema1927]

I find that keeping the trigger finger laying stright against the outside of the trigger guard until ready to shoot works for me with every weapon type. Rule three always works for me.

 

[MCgunner]

I never paid much attention to Cooper.

 

[earplug]

I shoot DA from the holster

It might be my way of doing the revolver thing.
Just seems right to do it DA from the holster.
I contact the trigger but don't apply any pressure until the firearm is downrange.
I'd never trust myself to a newer Glock type pistol.
Curious what the hammer cockers from the holster do on the second shot?

 

[.38 Special]

I do a lot of goofing off with my Model 19 and Jordan Trooper holster. As per Mr. Jordan himself, my finger is on the trigger before the draw and is pressing the trigger during the entire course of the presentation. Perfect timing means the sear breaks as the muzzle swings onto the target. I have not shot myself with a wax bullet, but I might yet. This is obviously not a safe technique to practice with live ammo, nor is it neccesarily any faster than a more modern and safer technique. It's merely of historical interest to me.

I honestly do not know if Cooper meant for us to keep our fingers off the trigger during the last stages of the draw. #3 certainly makes sense in the context of "covering" a suspect or while carrying a rifle during a hunt. Does it mean that in a self-defense or competition scenario we should not make contact with the trigger until we have taken the time to verify sight alignment? If so, an awful lot of top competitors are in violation. Perhaps Mr. Miculek would appreciate a concerned note from THR regarding his safety?

Like the man said, safety lies between the ears. Slavishly -- and thoughtlessly -- following the rules does not make us safe. A man with common sense will think about his situation and modify the rules to suit his needs. A man without common sense is not safe regardless of how many rules he observes.

 

[phoglund]

I have to agree with .38 Special on this one. Although the rules are useful and well reasoned they are not infallible nor without exception. Those who handle firearms must keep their mind in gear and not assume that following rules without understanding or focused attention on their specific situation will not save them from potential disaster.

 

[Gator]

I never paid much attention to Cooper.

 

[Gordon]

The Col. did NOT develop the rules for SA SA pistols , he did it for all guns.How do I know? He told me so in no uncertain terms in 1979! If your finger stays off the trigger until you intend to destroy the target, you won't have any problems with "ADs" or NDs or shooting friendlies-ever. To do otherwise is dangerous and foolhardy. No negotiations on this with anybody I ever shoot with.

 

[VA27]

All guns are always loaded.
Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to see destroyed.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what lies beyond.

Words to live by.

In general, you can probably "get away" with a violation of ONE of the four.

If you violate two at the same time, something bad can happen.

If you violate three, something bad will happen.

I've seen police cadets thrown out of the academy and sent home for a violation of rule three. Should we be any less serious?

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm just wondering what set of circumstances would cause keeping your finger inside the guard with your thumb on the hammer spur on draw and presentation to be dangerous. How would the revolver fire?

 

[LightningJoe]

Trigger discipline would seem to be a good deal less important with a double-action revolver than with say a DAO pistol or perhaps even a TDA pistol. An SA automatic cocked and locked should make trigger discipline unnecessary. And yet Rule 3 remains. I guess the school of experience has taught us that the limits of human judgement make hard and fast rules necessary.

 

[pwrtool45]

Well, if you were really concerned about ND/AD you'd carry an autopistol with an empty chamber. In fact, for quite awhile the US Military mandated exactly that. Carrying with a round in the chamber is more dangerous than without. However, it's safe to assume that we all carry with a chambered round. Why? Because it can be done safely if some precautions are taken. As a result of those precautions, condition 3 was determined to be unnecessary. Same thing goes with Rule 3, when you have a 10-lb DAO trigger. (Though, personally, I abide by Rule 3 when manipulating or handling the weapon in an administrative setting.)

Following The Rules just because they are The Rules and Always Have Been is folly.

Further, it should be noted that Cooper was married to the 1911 platform and that colored his opinion and dictum on how a pistol should be manipulated and used. Yes, The Rules can apply to all firearms-- but they aren't as necessary for some as they are for others. Personally, I tend to match my trainers to my platform. I'll listen to Jordan, Skelton and Miculek about how to use a DA revolver more than I'll listen to Cooper. When it comes to the 1911, I'll listen to Cooper (or, more appropriately, a modern instructor who has improved on Cooper's teachings).

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Don't know about a single action revolver, but on a double action revolver, it is perfectly safe to have your finger on the trigger before you are ready to fire. The long heavy stroke required to intentionally fire is the safeguard. I think Rule No. 3 refers to single action auto pistols, and anything that is meant to be cocked while in action. Double action revolvers are not carried around in a cocked condition, therefore Rule 3 makes no sense when applied to them.

 

[VA27]

Building good habits is a good thing. Get sloppy with one (gun) and you'll be sloppy with others. Getting used to having your finger on the trigger of a DA revolver, when it doesn't really need to be there, will eventually lead to you having an ND with your hunting rifle or shotgun or another gun, somewhere down the line. You can NEVER be too safe when handling firearms.

If you think that Rule Three is obsolete, then you are the worst kind of a fool. Kindly stay away from others when you are handling firearms. That way, when the inevitable happens, only your property or life will be in danger.

 

[John C]

Cosmoline;

I've read many of your posts over the past couple of years, and I quite respect your views and opinions. I appreciate your bringing up this topic. I'm not sure I appreciate the subtle flames from others. You've brought up an interesting point that merits discussion.

The real reason to always follow rule 3 is sympathetic muscle reactions. Sympathetic muscle reaction is when a muscle on one part of your body instinctively reacts along with another muscle. For example, close one eye and then move your other, open eye from side to side. You can't make your one, closed eye stay still. A sympathetic reaction.

There are other sympathetic reactions, and in the hand they occur instinctively. One that's most often seen is when falling.

So, at the range this is probably no big deal. But in a home defense or hunting situation, you don't want to trip when your gun's drawn, since you may have a sympathetic response to clench your hand to avoid dropping your expensive revolver. Hopefully your thumb catches the hammer. In a defensive situation, the last thing you want to do is put a round through the wall of your house, and into your neighbor's. While hunting, a round in your leg or your buddy would ruin the trip.

I really enjoyed VA27's post about the rules and trying to break them. I'll probably unashamedly use that at one time or another.

-John

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

If you think that Rule Three is obsolete, then you are the worst kind of a fool. Kindly stay away from others when you are handling firearms. That way, when the inevitable happens, only your property or life will be in danger.

Not obsolete at all. Just not universally applicable. Double action revolvers, when not cocked, are not prone to being accidentally discharged. Additionally, it is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable. That said, when not in a combat situation, no fingers should be inside the trigger guard of ANY weapon until the muzzle is pointing at something you are willing to destroy.

The exception for double action revolvers is very narrow, and only applies to the most extreme levels of condition orange, i.e., a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move. In this case, finger not only can be inside the trigger guard OF A DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER, it should be inside the trigger guard, and may even be resting lightly on the trigger face. If it is outside the trigger guard pointing straight during this phase, you are taking an unnecessary risk with your life.

 

[pwrtool45]

Not obsolete at all. Just not universally applicable. Double action revolvers, when not cocked, are not prone to being accidentally discharged. Additionally, it is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable. That said, when not in a combat situation, no fingers should be inside the trigger guard of ANY weapon until the muzzle is pointing at something you are willing to destroy.

The exception for double action revolvers is very narrow, and only applies to the most extreme levels of condition orange, i.e., a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move. In this case, finger not only can be inside the trigger guard OF A DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER, it should be inside the trigger guard, and may even be resting lightly on the trigger face. If it is outside the trigger guard pointing straight during this phase, you are taking an unnecessary risk with your life.

Indeed, this is true. Sounds an awful lot what some old "fools" like Bill Jordan taught.

You can NEVER be too safe when handling firearms.

So, I take it you carry an unloaded gun? Mechanical safties can fail, after all. If one can NEVER (emphasis yours) be too safe... Or, do you make a concession in this case based on perceived need and readiness.

To further clarify, if you check your instruction manual or NRA rules from times not too long past you would note a Rule which states "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use." So then, which Rules are immutable and which Rules do you disregard? That rule, which is obviously intended for people transporting a recreational firearm to and from the range, does not explicitly state as much. Therefore, would you say that one must take into account one's intended purpose when deciding which rules to follow? If that's the case, it kind of seems like the Rules should be judged on an case-by-case basis instead of unilaterally applying them to all situations.

Also, personal attacks are not High Road.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Indeed, this is true. Sounds an awful lot what some old "fools" like Bill Jordan taught.

Of No Second Place Winner fame.

 

[wildburp]

Rule 3 Rules

You would be surprised how one can tense up, unintentionally tightening one's grip (and pull) on the trigger of a quality smooth double action, such as a S&W Combat Masterpiece, in a tense situation. I have to admit being amazed at how much the trigger moved FORWARD after I relaxed (of course I had violated rule 3). I was PREPARED to shoot this poor fellow, but it turned out (split seconds later) to be unnecessary. The experience jarred me throughly. I pulled that trigger about half way to hell.

Rule 3

wb

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

But you didn't have an unintended discharge because that would require a full rearward pull of the double action trigger. Besides, you should not be squeezing at all unless you intend to fire. At most, your finger should be lightly touching. If this concerns you, however, then keep your finger inside the trigger guard during an extreme condition orange (keep in mind, I'm only talking about a double action revolver with a standard factory tensioned trigger, hammer down), but resting forward on the rear surface of the forward part of the trigger guard.

At this stage (high condition orange), it would be foolish to keep one's finger outside the trigger guard and pointing straight out. You need every second to save your life in that situation, and replacing your finger into the trigger guard and onto the trigger face is not a natural motion like it might be with an auto pistol.

Also, had your double action revolver had the action lightened? I never do this for this very reason. With practice, you can handle a standard factory tensioned double action trigger as well as a lightened one. McGivern provides the procedure for this conditioning in his book.

 

[wildburp]

Hawkeye

Thanks for your insights. I did not have the level of training available today, or perhaps even then. The gun was untouched, nearly new from the box. To this day, I have shed no blood but my own accidentally, and was a LEO for just a short period, before I realized that I was not suited to the work.
All I was saying is that if you are holding a quality DA in the Weaver stance ready to shoot under stress, your forearms will contract, right down to the tippy little tip of your trigger finger. Other folks may not pull the trigger as far as I, but the tension will be there. But your points are accurate and well taken. Being retired now, I don't carry a firearms.

wb

and please don't tell Trapper about this

 

[VA27]

pwrtool45- There used to be a list called "The Ten Commandments of Gun Safety".

1. Treat every firearm with the same respect due a loaded firearm.
(1. All guns are always loaded.)

2. Control the direction of your firearm's muzzle. Carry your firearm safely, keeping the safety on until ready to shoot. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
(2. Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to see destroyed.)
(3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.)

3. Identify your target and what is beyond it. Know the identifying features of the game you hunt.
(4. Identify your target and what lies beyond.)

4. Be sure the barrel and action are clear of obstructions and that you have only ammunition of the proper size for the firearm you are carrying.

5. Unload firearms when not in use. Leave the actions open. Firearms should be carried empty in cases to and from shooting areas.

6. Never point a firearm at anything you do not want to shoot. Avoid all horseplay with a firearm.

7. Never climb a fence or a tree, or jump a ditch or log with a loaded firearm.

8. Never shoot a bullet at a flat, hard surface or water. During target practice, be sure your backstop is adequate.

9. Store firearms and ammuntiton separately beyond the reach of children and careless adults.

10. Avoid alcoholic beverages or other mood-altering drugs before or while shooting.

Just general safey precautions that apply to all firearms and their users.

Mr Cooper boiled that list down to the 4 Rules he thought most important for all people who go armed for self defense. The others still apply to all, but "The 4 Rules" are the most important ones for the armed individual.

Also, personal attacks are not High Road

I did not intend for that to be a personal attack. If you took it as such, I sincerely apologize to you. It was, however, an attack on folks who think that they are too smooth, too good or too manly, to worry about a bunch of sissy rules. I work with armed folks every day, both civilian and law enforcement, who are smooth, good and manly (and also womanly!) and are also totally professional in their handling of firearms. I insist on it. They insist on it. I think that everyone should insist on it. Life is far too grand a thing to risk, to hang out with the careless.

Bob