Cooper's Third Rule And Revolvers

[Cosmoline]

the muzzle IS downrange, even though the gun is on the table.

That's a different rule, one which again we're not even talking about. The key is, those sights aren't on the target! So it's a technical violation of Rule 3, just like keeping your finger in the guard as you draw from a pocket or bag. But that's the grip the hand naturally assumes when picking up a revolver or drawing it. How is the firearm going to suddenly go off? The thumb is kept on hammer until the revolver comes up on the target, whereupon it is either cocked or left to cycle in double action mode. Until that happens, and until you decide to apply major muscle pressure to the trigger, the revolver will not fire. The hair trigger of a rifle or single action pistol is an entirely different animal, and if you notice theose firearms are designed to allow for comfortable and balanced carrying of the firearm with the finger well outside the trigger guard.

 

[Nightcrawler]

But that's the grip the hand naturally assumes when picking up a revolver or drawing it.

That's the grip the hand naturally assumes when grasping any firearm, since in order to fire it your finger has to be on the trigger. Revolvers aren't unique in this regard.

The point I was trying to make is that since the muzzle is downrange, if the competition shooter pictured flubs and has an ND (however unlikely), no harm done.

How is the firearm going to suddenly go off?

The same way they ALWAYS "go off"; the shooter gets to excited or startled and reflexively pulls the trigger. Fortunately, the revolver is much more forgiving of poor trigger finger discipline than most guns, so it's less of an issue.

You're correct in that if you apply pressure to the hammer, this is unlikely (almost impossible) to happen. But putting your thumb on the hammer practically requires you to have your finger on the trigger, otherwise you won't have a solid grip. And it doesn't work on hammerless guns.

As for putting your finger on the trigger while drawing...not me. If that works for you, more power to you, but putting my thumb on the hammer (which weakens the grip on the gun for me) isn't even an option on my concelaed-hammer snubby.

Keeping my finger off of the trigger until the gun is pointing away from me is muscle memory for me, and I prefer to stick with it.

 

[AStone]

Just answer the ****ing question.

But that's the grip the hand naturally assumes when picking up a revolver or drawing it.
How is the firearm going to suddenly go off?

Stephen: [Speaking heavenward, with his mouth full] Him? That can't be William Wallace. I'm prettier than this man. All right Father, I'll ask him. [To William] If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to kill Englishmen?

Hamish: Is your father a ghost, or do you converse with the Almighty?

Stephen: In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God. [Heavenward]
Yes, Father. [To William and Hamish] The Almighty says don't change the subject,
just answer the ****ing question.

Hamish: Mind your tongue.

Campbell: Obscene Irish.

[Stephen pulls a sharpened stick and holds it to the throat of Campbell]
Stephen: Smart enough to get a dagger past your guards, old man.

William: That's my friend, Irishman. And the answer your question is yes -
if you fight for me, you get to kill the English.

Stephen: Excellent! Stephen is my name. I'm the most wanted man on my island.
Except I'm not on my island of course. More's the pity.

Hamish: Your island? You mean Ireland.
Stephen: Yeah. It's mine.

Hamish: You're a madman.

Stephen: [laughs] I've come to the right place then.

 

[Nightcrawler]

No, Cosmo, you're not crazy. At least not because of this.

It seems to me it's six in one or half-dozen in the other. You can have you finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer to prevent NDs, or you can have your thumb off the hammer and your finger off the trigger. I have to disagree with you on it being difficult to keep the finger off the trigger on a DA revolver; if your finger is too short to keep it straight, you can put up "in register" alongside the frame. My finger is long enough, though.

Either way, you have to move a digit to fire. You have to put your finger in the trigger guard on one, or move your thumb out of the way on the other.

If you go tromping around with your finger on the trigger and thumb NOT blocking the hammer, in my opinion you're asking for trouble. If you have your thumb blocking the hammer and your finger off of the trigger, you have only a shaky grasp on your gun.

Either method can work, I think, it's just a matter of preference.

just answer the ****ing question.

Charming, Nem. Again:

The same way they ALWAYS "go off"; the shooter gets too excited, or startled, or trips while moving, and reflexively pulls the trigger.

If you have your thumb on the hammer (in the proper position, not simply resting on it), this generally prevents this from happening. However, since one of my revolvers has a concealed hammer (the one I carry in my pocket), the thumb on the hammer isn't an option. Since it's carried in a pocket holster, the finger can't be on the trigger while it's in my pocket (which I greatly prefer).

As the gun comes up and the sights align, I move my finger into the trigger guard. By the time my sights are lined up, the finger is on the trigger and I'm ready to shoot. That's the way I do it with all of my handguns, not just revovlers, and it works for me. (In a quick draw & shoot situation, I mean.)

MY natural grip is to simply grasp the thing. I'm not anymore naturally inclined to put my thumb on the hammer of a revolver than I am to put my thumb on the safety of a 1911. Since that's the case, I adopt a very similar grip for nearly all handguns, and that works for me.

The four rules are not set in stone, as has been said. For example, with a single action revolver, as long as the hammer's not cocked, you can do jumping jacks with your finger on the trigger and there's still absolutely no chance of an ND. But the finger-off-the-trigger bit is as much habit for me as anything.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Pictures

Perhaps some pictures will help.

Finger off of the trigger (straight).

Finger in register, in case the trigger guard is too long for your finger. Some prefer this method regardless.

Cosmoline's method, as near as I can figure. Note the thumb blocking the hammer. If you trip or are startled, and reflexively "grip", the thumb pressure will prevent the revolver from cycling. Cosmo, did I get that right?

 

[Cosmoline]

reflexively pulls the trigger.

"Reflexively" pulls an 8 to 12 lb. trigger? That's not a reflex, it's a grand mal seizure! Nevertheless, I would not touch the trigger of a DAO revolver, which is one reason I don't like DAO's.

Nightcrawler, that's one way. I usually hold the hammer from directly behind the spur or with my thumb firmly on top of the spur.

 

[Nightcrawler]

"Reflexively" pulls an 8 to 12 lb. trigger? That's not a reflex, it's a grand mal seizure!

I didn't say it was likely. But it HAS happened.

The fact that you prefer to keep your thumb on the hammer to control the lockwork, as you put it, tells me that this is at least a minor concern to you as well.

Otherwise, what you're arguing is that since revolvers have heavy trigger pulls you don't need to concern yourself with trigger finger discipline, and I don't agree with that.

Cooper's four rules aren't "just for 1911s", as has been suggested. They're a guideline (as opposed to an iron-clad inviolable rule) for general weapons handling. As a rule, running around with your finger on the trigger is asking for an ND. You might never have one, but why run the extra risk?

Now, as I said, double action revolvers are more forgiving of this than most guns, but that doesn't mean that NDs are impossible with them. IF you block the hammer, then it becomes a non-issue. Personally, I don't see the need to complicate it like that by assuming a different grip technique for some revolvers than I would with a concealed-hammer revolver or an automatic.

I usually hold the hammer from directly behind the spur or with my thumb firmly on top of the spur.

I wondered if that might have been what you were talking about. Again, I think it's really just a matter of preferance.

 

[pwrtool45]

Little Johnny was 2 hours late getting to school. When he arrived, his teacher asked, "Why are you late for class, Johnny?"

Johnny answered, "'Cause my paw sleeps nekked!"

Properly shocked, the teacher asks Johnny to explain himself.

Johnny says, " Well, 'bout 4 this mornin' we heard a rukus in the hen house. Paw jumped outa bed, grabbed his shotgun and went out to see what was goin' on. He used the barrel of the shotgun to ease open the hen house door so's he could peek inside, and 'bout that time Ol' Blue, my coonhound, come up behind paw and cold-nosed him. We been pluckin' chickens ever since!"

Rule 3

I...uh...what?

Well, I guess...I guess that's a failure of Rule 3 alright.

And Rule 2, since I guess he didn't want the chickens destroyed.

And Rule 4, since I guess he didn't want the chickens destroyed.

They say you can only violate 2 of the 4. I guess you can only violate 2 of the 3, as well. A short-stroke, light-trigger shotgun isn't exactly a DA revolver, though. Not sure how this applies.

There appears to be some miscommunication here. It's as though some think the people advocating Rule 3's less-than-perfect applicability to the revolver shooter are willing to violate all the other rules. As though they are willing to walk around with their gun unholstered and finger on the trigger as a matter of course. Maybe waving it around, too. I addressed this in my original post back on page 1, but let me reiterate: The gun is in the holster or the gun is about to be shooting. Anything in-between is administrative (e.g., low-ready) and Rule 3 is in effect. As TRH has pointed out a couple of times, Rule 3 has a narrow window of inapplicability when using a DA revolver. If you do not use the DA revolver as your primary defensive pistol, then you are free to continue using Rule 3 the same as you would with a 3.5# 1911. This is sub-optimal but if it gives you some peace of mind continue to do so.

Cooper's four rules aren't "just for 1911s", as has been suggested. They're a guideline (as opposed to an iron-clad inviolable rule) for general weapons handling. As a rule, running around with your finger on the trigger is asking for an ND

They aren't just for 1911s in that yeah, they can indeed work for something other than a 1911. I don't think anyone is contesting that. What some are saying is that Cooper didn't care if it was optimal for revolver shooters. Cooper cared that it was optimal for his baby, the 1911. Personally, as a revolver shooter I want optimal, not adequate. (Paraphrased from my previous post.) I'll look to other trainers who actually gave more than passing consideration toward the use of a revolver in the development of their training dogma. Not to a trainer who looked at it as an afterthought.

I agree about the guideline part, though. Hence the narrow window in which Rule 3 is...negotiable...when using a DA revolver. Nobody is saying that it's never ever applicable.

why run the extra risk?

As I've said before. You can mitigate the risk of an ND even more by carrying an unloaded gun. The added risk in both cases in infinitesimal, and the benefit is noticeable. I think we disagree on this point.

Personally, I don't see the need to complicate it like that by assuming a different grip technique for some revolvers than I would with a concealed-hammer revolver or an automatic.

If you are concerned about this habit carrying over to other platforms then you should continue using Rule 3 as you would with a 1911. Honestly, if you switch platforms frequently or don't use a DA revolver frequently this is probably the best course of action. Personally, though, when I pick up a Garand, my finger doesn't reflexively wrap around the trigger. When I pick up an AR-15, my finger doesn't reflexively wrap around the trigger. When I pick up my XD, my finger doesn't reflexively wrap around the trigger. My finger does not, upon coming within close proximity of a trigger, manifest a will of its own and being wrapping itself around said trigger.

With a longarm, the handling procedure is completely different than that of a pistol. My hands are in a different position, as are my fingers. Keeping the two separate has never been a problem. With other pistols, though, I agree with you. I'd imagine this would work as well as routinely switching between two pistols with a different manual of arms (say, a Beretta 92 and a 1911). Personally, being ambidextrous, I tend to carry autos on my "weak" (right) side. Maybe it's a case of an ambi's brain being wired differently, but pulling a pistol out of the holster with my right hand has a completely different initial reflex than doing the same with my left hand. YMMV.


Also, this is might be a bit confusing because I'm beginning to realize that Cosmoline, The Real Hawkeye and myself differ slightly in the details on how we think Rule 3 applies to revolvers, but agree in principle.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

At no point will my finger be on my trigger while the gun is coming out of the holster and the muzzle is pointing down towards my leg.

I'm with you on that point, but I would never presume to tell someone else not to follow the advice of someone like Jordan. So long as that's how they've trained, I have no problem with it. Just not for me. Once drawn, though, and condition is orange, my trigger finger is in contact with the trigger, assuming we are talking about a conventional double action revolver (Disclaimer: This rule of thumb does not generalize to ANY other action type, and Cooper's rules 1,2 and 4 are in full force at ALL times, regardless of action type.).

 

[Nightcrawler]

I don't think the added risk of having your finger on the trigger is infintecimal. Every time some fool has a negligent discharge and cries, "It just went off!" is a time when he shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger. Unless you're going to argue that these types of NDs (as opposed to the "I thought it wasn't loaded!" type) never happen with revolvers, then trigger finger management remains important.

It's NOT a huge issue when you're on the firing line. What I'm talking about is if you've got your weapon drawn and are running, crawling, moving to cover, trying to get through the brush, etc. In a situation like that, having your finger on the trigger can be a bad thing. It isn't a matter of your finger "getting a will of its own". It's a simple matter of the natural gripping reflex that occurs under stress, like white-knuckling your steering wheel.

Honestly, if you switch platforms frequently or don't use a DA revolver frequently this is probably the best course of action.

Actually, I shoot revolvers quite a bit more than my Gov't Model. I still don't feel the need to change styles, start putting my thumb on the hammer and finger on the trigger when drawing. Either way, you have to move a digit before you can pull the trigger, and I'm NOT going to do the Bill Jordan "priming the trigger" technique (where you begin pulling the trigger during the draw stroke). It takes a lot less time for me to pull the trigger than it does for me to draw; I'm used to doing a quick, smooth trigger stroke. I'd worry that if I tried to begin pulling the trigger as the gun was coming up, I'd put the round into the dirt or into my leg. You'd have to time it just right, and it'd take a lot of practice.

I'm not a phenomenal sixgun shooter, but the long trigger pull doesn't hamper rapid fire for me. (The recoil of the .44 does, though.) (Note that during rapid fire, you do begin pulling the trigger as your muzzle is coming down from recoil, before your sights are aligned. While I suppose it's a technical rule 3 violation, your muzzle is down range and pointed at the badguys.)

What I'm not understanding is the advantage to this method. Do you guys "prime" the trigger? The way I shoot, the finger is in contact with the trigger (again, in a quick draw & shoot scenario) as soon as the muzzle is on target. Moving my finger from the trigger guard to the trigger takes but a fraction of a second, no more than, say, thumbing the safety off of a 1911.

I'm curious as to how you guys perform your draw & shoot move.

 

[pwrtool45]

Here's part of that confusion I was talking about. I don't advocate putting your thumb on the hammer. I think that was Cosmo.

What I'm saying is that I do not abide by the "finger is off the trigger and on the frame until you have a sight picture, then you may, as a separate action, remove the trigger finger from the side of the frame and place it on the trigger." The trigger finger goes into the trigger guard (note, this is different from putting the finger on the trigger itself) as part of the draw stroke. By the time the pistol is at full extension the finger is now on the trigger and as the front sight is placed in the primary focal plane the trigger begins moving rearward.

Speed is achieved through the removal of excess motion. Placing the finger forward on the frame and then moving it back to the trigger is wasted motion. Fractions of a second add up.

When moving with the pistol drawn, if there are targets visible, then the finger is in the guard because the front sight is either transitioning between targets or is already on target. If no targets are visible or the decision to just move instead of move and fire has been made, then Rule 3 is in effect.

Every time some fool has a negligent discharge and cries, "It just went off!" is a time when he shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger

*shrug* As has been pointed out, every time said fool has a negligent discharge is a time when he shouldn't have had a loaded gun. Jordan advocated a much looser interpretation of Rule 3 than Cooper. Jordan favored a wheelgun. Cooper favored a 1911.

edits for clarity below:

takes but a fraction of a second, no more than, say, thumbing the safety off of a 1911.

Disengaging the safety on a 1911 isn't wasted motion, though. During the draw, the thumb is placed on the safety lever. Before firing, the thumb will disengage the safety by pressing down. At no point is the thumb anywhere else and the motion is performed only once. Where this happens in the draw stroke doesn't really matter. Now, if you were to put your thumb under the safety, maybe to make really sure it doesn't accidentally get disengaged, then move it to the top of the safety and then push down that would be wasted motion.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I don't think the added risk of having your finger on the trigger is infintecimal. Every time some fool has a negligent discharge and cries, "It just went off!" is a time when he shouldn't have had his finger on the trigger. Unless you're going to argue that these types of NDs (as opposed to the "I thought it wasn't loaded!" type) never happen with revolvers, then trigger finger management remains important.

It certainly can happen. In fact, I will venture to say, most people who own double action revolvers probably don't even know how they are intended to be used. My father, for example, was never a revolver man (Though he owned a shotgun and knew how to use it), and didn't know the first thing about them. One night he and my brother were home alone, and just so happened that the only loaded gun handy was my brother's revolver. Well, it was late, and there was a commotion outside, and my father grabs the loaded revolver and proceeds to cock the hammer and run around with it in this condition. My brother, who knows a thing or two about double action revolvers was horrified, and very carefully acquired control of the revolver, placing it back in its intended condition. Now, my father very easily could have had an accidental discharge with that revolver. So, yes, the answer to your question is that double action revolvers are not immune to accidental discharges. It all depends on who's handling them.

 

[earplug]

The Modern Technique of the Pistol

Written by Gregory Boyce Morrison
Jeff Cooper, Editorial Adviser
When working with a DA pistol or revolver.

Page 80 The trigger finger contacts the trigger but no appreciable pressure is applied.

I tend to use Bill Jordans method of a earlier trigger contact and pull.
I don't understand the benifit of having my thumb on a revolver hammer. Would slow getting a good grip during my draw.
My 642 and 638 would be confused.

Cooper taught SA pistol, Jordan taught DA revolver

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Cooper taught SA pistol, Jordan taught DA revolver.

+1

 

[Cosmoline]

The fact that you prefer to keep your thumb on the hammer to control the lockwork, as you put it, tells me that this is at least a minor concern to you as well.

The main reason I keep my thumb on the spur is to keep it from snagging on winter clothing. I really don't understand how it's possible for person to reflexively pull a double action revolver trigger. It has to be intentional and deliberate.

 

[GRIZ22]

If you are holding your weapon with finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer and you trip you'll be in trobule. You (me or anyone else) tends to grab by reflex and you will find your thumb going down to meet your trigger finger which will be pulling the trigger back. The grab is reflex in order to grab on to something so it will easily overcome a DA trigger. A lot of UID, ND, or AD whatever you want to call it have happened this way.

Why would you want to keep your finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer anyway. This requires two motions (index finger and thumb) to fire. Keep your finger off the trigger and you don't have to worry what the hammer is doing if your firearm is working properly.

Putting your finger on the trigger during the draw is okay for quick draw demonstrations and such but has no place in combat shooting. The quick presentation and follow through are imp[ressive to see but what if your opponent drops their gun as they see you draw? I've seen this happen.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well I've fallen hundreds of times, this being a universe of ice for six months a year. And I have never felt the urge or instinct to squeeze my revolver. The instinctive reaction is to reach out with your hands, dropping anything you're carrying. I remember one particularly bad spill when I was trying to walk across a half-frozen wooden bridge last summer. The Mosin that was in my hands flew up and over, landing in the river below. I instinctively tossed it aside to free up my hands.

A lot of UID, ND, or AD whatever you want to call it have happened this way.

Specific examples with revolvers?

Why would you want to keep your finger on the trigger and thumb on the hammer anyway. This requires two motions (index finger and thumb) to fire. Keep your finger off the trigger and you don't have to worry what the hammer is doing if your firearm is working properly.

I find it's an easy matter to shift my thumb off the hammer as I raise the revolver. I find it's extremely difficult to keep the revolver balanced if I keep my finger pressing against the frame until on target. The pressure from my index finger cants the revolver over to the left, and throws my whole grip off. I have to re-grip and adjust once on target. That's simply not acceptable if I'm having to shoot in a hurry.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Specific examples with revolvers?

Haven't seen one myself. But are you going to argue that a negligent discharge with a DA revolver is impossible because it has a heavy trigger?

The pressure from my index finger cants the revolver over to the left, and throws my whole grip off. I

Why would this problem happen only with revolvers? Every pistol is more solidly gripped if your finger is on the trigger; with your finger on the frame, you're grasping it with one less finger.

 

[BullfrogKen]

OK. Cooper and Jordon are not the Apostle Jeff and Saint Bill.

I first heard of the Four Rules of Universal Gun Handling as a young Marine, before I knew they were handed down on stone tablets written by the Hand of God Himself. And we followed them with our rifles, pistols, and machine guns without knowing their origins. It was impossible to Never do, but we were muzzle conscious, kept our fingers off the triggers, etc.

I don't think its wise to think we can carelessly ignore a rule because our weapons system is OK with it, or since it has a larger margin of error so it doesn't apply.


All this said, I do think there are times when we will consciously and deliberately violate those rules because its appropriate or necessary. Are we masters of the rules, or mastered by them.

However, I do not agree with the rationale that a revolvers longer trigger pull is one of those circumstances. If you want to, go ahead. I don't think you'll have much success convincing folks. Training evolves. Jordan may have advocated it. I'm sure there are still a few out there that do.

I don't think this rule has anything to do with lawyers, but safety, and not shooting people and things we didn't intend.


This thread is degrading into banter about nonsense, who is right, who has more credibility, and who is/was entitled to teach this/that. Its not far from being locked.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

This thread is degrading into banter about nonsense, who is right, who has more credibility, and who is/was entitled to teach this/that. Its not far from being locked.

Have to disagree there. No one on my side of this debate has done anything but make well reasoned arguments based on facts, experience and widely acknowledged expert opinion. Some people on this thread are being doctrinaire, mixed in with insults for those who disagree, but that's only coming from the other side. May I suggest that you direct your criticism towards them, rather than generally as if you cannot distinguish between reasoned arguments and doctrinaire insults?

Regarding what you said about the Marines, it's only natural. Marines don't handle a lot of double action revolvers, and if they did they'd likely be instructed by people who do most of their instructing in automatic and bolt action rifles, automatic pistols, pump and automatic shotguns and subguns. ALL handlers of those weapons are well advised to follow all four of Cooper's rules at ALL stages of gun handling, regardless of circumstances. Double action revolvers, however, are a different animal altogether, with different rules developed long ago by men who made their livings fighting for their lives with them.

 

[GRIZ22]

1. Some people may throw their weapon away when they fall. If you throw it away you certainly can't squeeze the trigger.

2. I have seen people slip when running with a revolver in their hand and fire. This was during tactical (running from cover to cover) training, during IPSC type competition, and have known it to happen when LEOs are chasing BGs with a revolver in their hand (the BG was armed). Fortunately no one was hurt.

3. Keeping your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire is a basic gunhandling rule, Cooper or no Cooper.

4. Cosmo you don't have to push on the frame. You just have to park your finger on it. You shouldn't be finger wrestling between your thumb and index finger. If you have your thumb in a normal grip instead of on the hammer, it would oppose any pressure from your index finger.

 

[pwrtool45]

OK. Cooper and Jordon are not the Apostle Jeff and Saint Bill.

I agree. In Aristotelian rhetorical discourse, appeals to authority are usually met with an appeal to equal authority. Since people brought up Cooper (instead of discussing the point on its own merit), Jordan seemed a natural counter. I think they both had some interesting things to say and a lot of time has passed since their day. This was not as a "my Saint is better than your Apostle" retort. I couldn't agree with you more in spirit.

I do think there are times when we will consciously and deliberately violate those rules because its appropriate or necessary.

That's the crux of my position in one sentence. It's not limited to one platform.

 

[.38 Special]

Anyone who insists on keeping their finger off of the trigger until the sights are aligned on target does not compete. Or at least not successfully.

Take a close look at any footage of top competitors and you will see fingers on triggers as the gun comes up.

In point of fact, someone earlier asked "Do we know of any instructors who are teaching contrary to Rule 3?" -- I know at least one: Jerry Miculek. Get a copy of his tape and see him explaining that the trigger must be "prepped" -- ie. pulled partway -- as the gun is drawn. Keeping the finger off the trigger until the gun is on target is described as "a waste of time".

Still seems to me that the point of keeping the trigger off the trigger when not firing is to avoid NDs while walking around, stalking a deer, holstering, etc. Practices that could, at worst, result in a shot into the dirt in front of the target do not strike me as especially worrisome. So really, insisting that the trigger is off limits until the exact instant the shot is desired strikes me as a bit silly. Certainly it is contrary to what essentially all competitive pistoleros do.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Well said, .38 Special.

 

[John C]

I thought Bill Jordan was known for having accidentally shot and killed one of his partners on the Border Patrol. Seriously.

-John