Cooper's Third Rule And Revolvers

[pwrtool45]

Okay, let's say your only avenue of escape from a potentially escalating situation is to hop a knee-high fence (maybe out next to a 7-11) so that you can flee. Are you going to disregard that option because it violates Rule 7? I'd say no, because the gun is in a holster which (hopefully) covers the trigger guard. That means you can safely ignore Rule #7 because it isn't applicable to your current situation.

The point I'm attempting to communicate is that the rules are going to depend on the weapon in question and the circumstances in question. Rule 3 is completely and utterly necessary for a 1911. It is not necessary for a DA revolver. This is not to be construed as license to go around fiddling with a DA wheelgun while keeping one's finger on the trigger. This is an "exception" to the 1911-centric rules in the circumstances so keenly identified by The Real Hawkeye in an earlier post.

 

[DrBoomBoom]

I went shooting at an outdoor range with a friend last spring. It was my first time shooting with him. He kept his finger on the trigger all the time he held his handgun and sometimes turned and swept everyone on the range. When I called him on it, he lit into me, telling me about what his daddy taught him, how safe a person he was and on and on. Last month he had a heart attack. I wonder what would have happened if he had that heart attack while sweeping the range with his finger on the trigger? Ignore Murphy and he'll kill you.

 

[RyanM]

Really, rule 1 is the only essential rule. And personally, I interpret it two ways at once. 1. All guns are always loaded. 1a. Treat all guns as if they were loaded. 1b. Keep your guns loaded at all times, because an empty gun is a very poor club.

Everything else just follows logically. You don't handle a loaded gun in a manner that may cause a negligent discharge, you don't point a loaded gun at anything valuable, and you don't shoot a loaded gun at anything you're not positive needs shootin'.

 

[pwrtool45]

*sigh*

Saying that Rule 3 isn't as applicable to DA revolvers as it is to 1911s isn't the same as saying all Rules are null and void.

He kept his finger on the trigger all the time he held his handgun and sometimes turned and swept everyone on the range

Emphesis mine. It's kinda hard to shoot folks if you don't put a muzzle on them.

Also, before responding people should re-re-re-read TRH's post on exactly HOW Rule 3 applies to revolvers. It also wouldn't hurt to re-read my original post as well since I explicitly noted when and how I, personally, still used Rule 3 and a DA revolver.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Life is far too grand a thing to risk, to hang out with the careless.

So, which of us members of the Highroad do you classify as "careless?"

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I went shooting at an outdoor range with a friend last spring. It was my first time shooting with him. He kept his finger on the trigger all the time he held his handgun and sometimes turned and swept everyone on the range. When I called him on it, he lit into me, telling me about what his daddy taught him, how safe a person he was and on and on. Last month he had a heart attack. I wonder what would have happened if he had that heart attack while sweeping the range with his finger on the trigger? Ignore Murphy and he'll kill you.

I have quite a few stories just like that, but I will only tell one in this post (I've told the others in other posts here in the past). I went hunting with my cousin back in the 1980s. As we walked into the field single file along a path. My cousin was in front of me with his loaded and closed up side by side shotgun. I was behind him. My shotgun action was open, and pointing to the side. His was closed, over his shoulder, and pointing at me. When I informed him of this fact he became very angry and started telling me how many years he'd been hunting and handling guns. Needless to say I never went hunting with him again.

 

[El Tejon]

We always hear about people who want to make themselves exempt from The Four Rules and we usually hear about those same people shooting themselves or others.

The Four Rules always apply, always. The Four Rules are NOT dependent upon a weapon type. Jeff Cooper taught pistol, revover, carbine, rifle, machine gun, shotgun, etc. The Four Rules apply everywhere we are.

It matters not how heavy the trigger is or what the weapon looks like, you keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target.

 

[pwrtool45]

So, why do we believe Cooper over Jordan?

Further, what makes Cooper's Four Rules immutable and the Ten Commandments of Gun Safety less so?

I've posed three similar questions and no one has addressed any of them.

Additionally, this is not me "wanting to make myself exempt." Personally, I don't blindly follow rules unless I accept the logic upon which they're based.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

It matters not how heavy the trigger is or what the weapon looks like, you keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target.

With regard only to the case of double action revolvers in a condition orange situation, I will respectfully disagree with you. My finger is on the trigger at some point prior to the moment I am pulling the trigger. Col. Cooper developed those rules while he was a primary advocate for the single action auto pistol. Naturally, any set of rules he developed would be based on that. Other experts who spent their lives as lawmen dealing with desperate men on a regular basis, and that with double action revolvers, did not advocate that the finger must be outside the trigger guard until the exact moment you wish to fire the weapon. Reasonable people may differ on this narrow point.

 

[El Tejon]

Because Jeff Cooper trained tens of thousands and the only people he killed with a pistol were enemy soldiers. Because if you follow The Four Rules there can be no NDs.

Real, yes your finger may very well be on the trigger before firing, but your sights are still on target and you are ready to shoot.

Jeff Cooper may have been a well-known advocate of the single action auto but he taught Rule 3 to his revolver students as well.

Every instructor I have been under as always applied Rule 3 to autos as well as revolvers. It is my opinion that failure to heed Rule 3 for whatever reason "I have a ________", "I'm a LEO" or "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have a Glock Fortay" wil only lead to disaster.

Do we know of any instructors who are teaching contrary to Rule 3?

 

[pwrtool45]

Because Jeff Cooper trained tens of thousands and the only people he killed with a pistol were enemy soldiers.

Ignoring the number of people Jordan trained and his service in WWII, Korea and the Border Patrol, I have to ask if this is a slam on Jordan? Are we going there?

Because if you follow The Four Rules there can be no NDs.

Also, you can follow The Five Rules (adding No Loaded Chambers) and there will be no NDs. There is a logical disconnect between "Following these rules will yield No Problems" and "These rules slow me down and offer no advantage" that has yet to be addressed.

Real, yes your finger may very well be on the trigger before firing, but your sights are still on target and you are ready to shoot.

I agree with this in part. Although Jordan would have disagreed.

Jeff Cooper may have been a well-known advocate of the single action auto but he taught Rule 3 to his revolver students as well.

Cooper was a Disciple of The 1911. I do not recall any acts distinguishing him as a Disciple of the Revolver. If Jordan had taught 1911 shooters to do something illogical based on his prejudices toward the 1911 platform I would disregard these teachings and find someone who specialized in the 1911. Someone like Cooper.

Every instructor I have been under as always applied Rule 3 to autos as well as revolvers.

While I've addressed some of these concerns previously, to be fair, how many of these instructors have truly distinguished themselves with a 12-lb DAO revolver? At the last IDPA nationals there was one Well-Known Instructor shooting in SSR division (Massad Ayoob). Disregarding the issue of GunGames(tm) as training, how many of these Well-Known Trainers are willing to get in the trenches with their students using a revolver to prove a point? Name one who's done it more than once or twice. Name one who's been willing to hang it out and compete with one.

It is my opinion that failure to heed Rule 3 for whatever reason "I have a ________", "I'm a LEO" or "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have a Glock Fortay" wil only lead to disaster.

It is my opinion that saying anything is forbid "for whatever reason" should raise red flags. There are always exceptions. Especially when the people saying it so fervently have a proficiency with the exception and a specialization with the rule.

Do we know of any instructors who are teaching contrary to Rule 3?

Here in 2006, who would? Are you saying that their lawyers have zero impact on this? Also that if something should happen on a firing line full of students, the fact that they probably have to pay legal fees win or lose also doesn't sway their decision on the matter at all?

 

[VA27]

I think (maybe) I see what's going on here. We seem to be struggling with the misconception that there is a difference between recreational shooting and an armed conflict in regards to the application of the 4 Rules. There is not. The old saw that "you fight/play like you train" is in full effect here. If you are sloppy in training or recreation that could carry over into a real situation, either hunting or self-defense, with disasterous consequences.

Rifle, shotgun, revolver or semi-automatic, plinking tin cans with a BB Gun in the back yard or being number two man on an entry team, the Rules apply. You have only to do a little research to see numerous stories of police officers or military personnel injured or killed during live-fire training because of rule violations. There are also a boatload of recreational shootings for the same reasons.

The only time the rules switch off is when you are confronted with an actual situation where you have made the determination that you either will, or are going to shoot, whether hunting, plinking or to defend yourself. For instance, wildburp was not in violation of rule 3 in his situation because he was prepared to shoot that individual, if need be.

We also have as a sub-conflict, the difference between "old school" as represented by Jordan, et al, and the "new technique" as represented by Cooper.

When I first entered law enforcement I was trained in the "old school". We carried either the Jordan River Holster or the Garrett holster. 'Bucket and String' holsters we called 'em. The holster did not cover the trigger of the revolver and any retaining device the holster had (snap-strap or thong) was only fastened when you thought you were going to get into an unarmed struggle with a perp. The rest of the time you were ready to 'slap leather'. (I also can't tell you how many times I had my gun flop out of my holster and land someplace inconvenient!)

The drawing sequence we were taught was different, too. When you grabbed your gun, you put your finger on the trigger and started pulling it while it was being drawn! If you did it right, when the gun came parallel to the ground and was leveled on the target, the shot broke. But problems crop up should something impede your draw stroke. Drawing from a seated position at a table or should someone grab your arm, for instance. The draw stroke has stopped but the trigger stroke hasn't! The result is a round that doesn't go where you intended.

Back then it wasn't that big a deal. Not so in todays legal climate. Any hint of carelessness will get you an audience with 12 of your peers. With proper training, the new technique is just as fast as the old school, more accurate and a lot safer.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Yez, ve must alvays obey zi roolz!

I have always known that the rules are a little different with a double action revolver, both in practice and application. This is the great advantage of the double action revolver over a single action auto. I cut my teeth on the double action revolver back in the 1980s. Studied folks like Bill Jordan, and learned proper technique under instruction from an NRA trained and certified defensive shooting instructor, also a retired deputy sheriff and a Bill Jordan fan. He taught me many things about the double action revolver. The double action revolver is an exception to the rule to a small degree. You may actually hold on someone using this weapon with the finger lightly on the trigger face (there is a technique to doing this which does not unduly risk an AD), without being prone to accidentally tripping off a round, as might be the case with a single action auto. We all don't need to be in lock step on this point, however.

The only time the rules switch off is when you are confronted with an actual situation where you have made the determination that you either will, or are going to shoot, whether hunting, plinking or to defend yourself. For instance, wildburp was not in violation of rule 3 in his situation because he was prepared to shoot that individual, if need be.

What you have described here is condition orange, which is what I've been saying all along.

 

[pwrtool45]

The only time the rules switch off is when you are confronted with an actual situation where you have made the determination that you either will, or are going to shoot, whether hunting, plinking or to defend yourself. For instance, wildburp was not in violation of rule 3 in his situation because he was prepared to shoot that individual, if need be.

The only time my revolver is out of the holster is when I'm about to be shooting. I do not have my revolver unholstered and my finger on the trigger (violating Rule 3) while I'm leaned forward squinting at the target. I do not have my revolver unholstered and my finger on the trigger (violating Rule 3) while I'm conversing with another shooter. My revolver is either in the holster or in the process of acquiring a target and firing. Period.

We also have as a sub-conflict, the difference between "old school" as represented by Jordan, et al, and the "new technique" as represented by Cooper.

Eh, not necessarliy, no. The two are not mutually exclusive. What some may state is that Cooper's "New Technique" doesn't adequately account for revolver shooters. It, in some tangent fashion, says "Oh yeah, if you shoot a wheelgun you can do this, too." Cooper didn't care if it was optimal for revolver shooters. Cooper cared if it was optimal for 1911 shooters. Personally, as a revolver shooter I want optimal, not adequate.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Personally, as a revolver shooter I want optimal, not adequate.

Absolutely correct.

 

[VA27]

Little Johnny was 2 hours late getting to school. When he arrived, his teacher asked, "Why are you late for class, Johnny?"

Johnny answered, "'Cause my paw sleeps nekked!"

Properly shocked, the teacher asks Johnny to explain himself.

Johnny says, " Well, 'bout 4 this mornin' we heard a rukus in the hen house. Paw jumped outa bed, grabbed his shotgun and went out to see what was goin' on. He used the barrel of the shotgun to ease open the hen house door so's he could peek inside, and 'bout that time Ol' Blue, my coonhound, come up behind paw and cold-nosed him. We been pluckin' chickens ever since!"

Rule 3

 

[gezzer]

The 4 rules were from a gun writer.

They are not from GOD or whatever, they are however COMMON SENSE but are not chiseled in stone.

Draw your DA with your finger on the trigger in time odds are You Will Shoot yourself in the leg.

Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you want to pull the trigger period!!!!! How hard is that?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you want to pull the trigger period!!!!! How hard is that?

Yeah, you will be 100% certain not to have an AD that way, for sure, but you are also nullifying the huge advantage derived from the design of the double action revolver, and you might well end up dead as a result.

I don't personally advocate the finger on the trigger from the holster, but if I have my gun drawn, and condition is orange (which is about the only time I would have my gun drawn in any practical application), I will likely have my finger in contact with the trigger face even if I am not firing that second, and I don't believe that the risk is too great considering what's necessary to actually pull a double action trigger all the way to fire. If there is any risk at all, it is far outweighed by the benefits derived from finger contact with the trigger while in condition orange. Pulling a double action trigger all the way to fire is something that is generally only done on purpose, which is the beauty of the design to begin with, and its main advantage over the single action auto pistol.

You seem intent on negating that advantage with your rigid insistence that a rule be followed by double action revolver users which was popularized by a guy who only used single action autos. Once condition is orange, the finger goes in the trigger guard and makes contact with the trigger face. Your failure to understand the relative safety of this (and its great advantage) stems, perhaps, from your lack of familiarity with the design and its purpose. If you approach a double action revolver with the exact same template as you approach a single action auto, you might as well just advocate against anyone using the double action revolver for self defense. If this rule is universal, you'd have to be a fool to choose a double action revolver over a single action auto. You could never hope to win a gunfight with goblin this way. Why? Because accurately shooting a double action revolver is not something you can do in a jerking manner, as would needs be the case if you went from finger straight out to finger finding the trigger and finger squeezing the trigger in a disciplined manner so as to produce an accurate hit on target, all in a split second. This is a formula for disaster.

 

[Gordon]

I heard noises around the outside of the house at 3am the other day. It was hard to "switch on" from REM sleep as I grabbed the bedside CZ P0-1 with a Surefire 200 attached and 14 rounds of 127 grain Winchester Ranger ammo in the gun. It was chamberloaded and uncocked being a DA with a 10 pound DA pull. I was shining the light on the kitchen porch dogs dish when somebody came from my rear and was suddenly a few feet away . I just came back from 24 hours of "close range CQB pistol" the week before and Yes it is true, you revert to your training: as I stepped back and I pivoted the gun butt locked in canted on my pectoral and the left arm to chest ready to block(and not shoot my hand off!) and I bellowed " WHO ARE YOU?!" at the top of my lungs. When my eyes focused on my son the RN who just got off work and wanted to check on my wifes high blood pressure, we were both glad my straight stiff trigger finger was not ever yet in the trigger guard from 30 years of training !

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I bet that if you put equal effort into it, you could also train yourself not to pull a double action trigger on anyone unless you knew for sure you were ok with killing that person. That's the beauty of that long heavy trigger stroke. It can generally only be done intentionally. But do what gives you comfort, by all means. In a single action auto, I derive comfort only in keeping my finger straight out until the instant I wish to fire. In a double action revolver, I derive comfort in knowing that a long and deliberate trigger stroke is required before that round is headed towards a target.

 

[LightningJoe]

The first four rules are unnecessary if you obey Rule 5: Stand behind me.

 

[JohnBT]

"if I have my gun drawn, and condition is orange (which is about the only time I would have my gun drawn in any practical application), I will likely have my finger in contact with the trigger face even if I am not firing that second"

That's the way I was taught, but it was many decades ago. The thinking was that if you had a reason to have a loaded gun pointed at something, or somebody, you had better be ready to fire it and every split second mattered. Now, maybe this was WWII- and Korea-era thinking brought home by the vets, but the lawmen in the family subscribed to it as well.

John

 

[Cosmoline]

The defenders of the Four Rules preach them like gospel. Literally:

The Four Rules always apply, always. The Four Rules are NOT dependent upon a weapon type. Jeff Cooper taught pistol, revover, carbine, rifle, machine gun, shotgun, etc. The Four Rules apply everywhere we are.

... and Jeff Cooper is their Prophet

So while I've heard the Cooper mantras chanted over and over again in this thread, I haven't heard any specific dangers of keeping your finger in the guard and thumb on hammer of a revolver on presentation, prior and leading up to aiming. This violates the Third Rule (hallowed be its name), but it ALSO ensures no tangles on the way out. And tangles are a serious issue for wheelguns, and a potentially dangerous one. You have two big vulnerable areas for tangles-the big trigger and the big hammer. Protect both with your thumb and finger on the way out and the danger is minimized. That's why I do it, anyway. I'm not sure how the revolver is going to go off becuase I'm holding it that way. In all my years my finger has never suddenly developed a mind of its own, and even if it did my thumb stops the hammer dead.

There are a lot of references to other issues, such as keeping your finger on the hair trigger of a shotgun or covering people with the barrel of a firearm. These are not at issue here. I'm talking about revolvers. I also have to wonder how many folks have relied on wheelguns for self defense. Keeping your finger out of that huge trigger guard is actually very difficult on most wheelguns. On older models it's nearly impossible when you're in a hurry. They're designed to be held with your finger on the trigger, ready to go. The weight of the trigger and the movement of the hammer are the safeties, and they were hashed out long before Cooper was around. If you keep the finger out until you've aimed you risk a delay or even worse a poor balance on presentation, because your index finger is pressing the frame. It's not like a slab-sided 1911. If balance is off, when you insert the finger the sights shift and you have to re-aquire even before you pull the trigger.

For DAO revolvers, obviously this changes and you must keep your finger clear. This is one reason I don't trust them. I want to know where both hammer and trigger are with tactile contact.

 

[Nightcrawler]

For me, the finger goes on the trigger when the sights are on target. When the gun is pointing anywhere else, the finger is off the trigger.

Meaning if the gun is drawn and pointing at the badguy, it's okay for the finger to be on the trigger. If the gun is at low ready and no target is apparent, the finger is straight.

This is how I do it.

I've heard of the "priming the trigger" technique where you begin pulling the trigger as you're drawing.

While that may work for some people, I'm patently uncomfortable with beginning to pull the trigger before the gun is pointing downrange. In the above picture, the muzzle IS downrange, even though the gun is on the table.

At no point will my finger be on my trigger while the gun is coming out of the holster and the muzzle is pointing down towards my leg. The thought of a big .44 slug tearing through my thigh and exploding out of my kneecap gives me the heebie-geebies.

 

[AStone]

Subscribed to this thread.

Revolver (642) on my side.

Trigger finger on the keyboard ("j").

But wait! What was the question?