Single Action Revolver Handling

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Clint Smith made this point years ago, that "finger off the trigger" does not mean finger out of the triggerguard.

Agree 100%.

When I am drawing a Colt during a CAS match, my finger is in the trigger guard.

But the finger is forward, pressed against the trigger guard. I am cocking the hammer as I raise the revolver, which is perfectly legal in SASS because the revolver is pointed down range. Once the sights come into view my finger moves to the trigger itself and I start shooting.

Been doing this for close to 20 years now, no accidental discharges so far (knock on wood).

I don't compete with double action revolvers, but if I did I would be doing the same. Finger in the trigger guard, pressed forward against the trigger guard. Then to shoot double action I would pull the trigger, or to shoot single action I would cock the hammer, then pull the trigger. Been doing this a long time, don't think I have formed any bad habits or caused bad muscle memory to happen.

As a side note, even though I have had semi-autos for a long time, I am brand new to the semi-auto steel sports. I spent some time with an coached by an experienced shooter. I and am trying to get the draw with strong hand, bring it to the chest, extend towards the target down into my muscle memory. Before each match I practice in the basement with my unloaded 9mm 1911. Still learning.
 
With a transfer bar nothing goes bang until the hammer drops while the trigger is held back. What’s the justification for only carrying five? Old dogma long outdated. Is it safer to carry 4 in a model 36?

There appear to be some facts you are unaware of. First, in CAS matches the rules have always been that revolvers are only loaded with five rounds. Not everyone carries "modern" guns designed by the safety Nazis. For over 10 years in the 1980s and 1990s I competed in CAS matches shooting original black powder era Colt SAAs, shooting black powder ammo. I wouldn't have loaded 6 rounds if the rules had allowed it. Also there are a lot of newer Colts and Italian replicas with the old 4-click actions which are not safe carried with 6-rounds, no matter how modern the steel they are made of.

Not everybody shoots New Model Rugers, although you appear think we all should.

Dave
 
I'd like to see documentation on that,
Really? Are you serious? I don't know if I should even dignify this with a response.

Why is it do you think that competitive shooters put both hands on the gun stick it up in front of their faces and use their sights? Why do you think every trainer teaches to put both hands on the gun stick it out in front of your face and use your sights? Why do you think every law enforcement agency in the country teaches to put both hands on the gun and stick it up in front of your face and use the sights?

Back in the day - and at your age you should remember this - Jeff Cooper and everybody else was drawing the gun and shooting from the hip. Then along came Jack Weaver who put both hands on the gun, stuck it out in front of his face, used his sights and blue everyone away. No pun intended.

Jeff Cooper, smart man that he was, recognized a clearly superior technique when he saw it, adopted it for himself and began teaching it.

Soon everyone was shooting two handed and using their sights.

especially when your adversary is three, maybe four, feet in front on you.

Ad Hoc fallacy.

No one, including you, said anything about shooting at what amounts to grappling distances which obviously requires a different technique. What is taught here is not hip shooting but shooting from retention. There is a difference.
 
With a transfer bar nothing goes bang until the hammer drops while the trigger is held back. What’s the justification for only carrying five? Old dogma long outdated. Is it safer to carry 4 in a model 36?

To expand on what Dave T said. In CAS, we only load 5 rounds and leave the hammer down on an empty chamber. We do that with a Colt type action or a modern Ruger with a transfer bar. The reason is, it would be unfair in competition to allow the Ruger guys to load six, while the rest of us with traditional Colt type lockworks have to load five and leave an empty chamber under the hammer. In CAS, everybody loads five with the hammer down on an empty chamber, no matter what they are shooting.
 
IMHO, loading different guns different ways leads to trouble. It should be second nature with no conscious thought. You can't do that if you have to pause to think, is this a traditional gun or a New Model??? I shoot more traditional guns than transfer bar guns so all mine are treated as five-shots.


It has been proven time and time again that any infinitesimal time lost in bringing the pistol up to eye level is more than offset by the gain in accuracy.
That's debatable. Probably depends on how much point-shooting you do. If you do not do any, then you should probably use the sights regardless of that extra half second it takes you. Hopefully your life doesn't hang on that half second.


Really? Are you serious? I don't know if I should even dignify this with a response.
Depends on the situation. If the situation calls for it, be it due to distance or perceived time constraints, I may very well point shoot.


No one, including you, said anything about shooting at what amounts to grappling distances which obviously requires a different technique. What is taught here is not hip shooting but shooting from retention. There is a difference.
I recall no stipulation on distance.
 
Well, I have to differ with you all. In an emergency situation, a draw-and-shoot-to-kill here is my regimen: Elbow brushes back covering garment, hand grasps gun butt, thumb on hammer spur, trigger finger on trigger. As my gun clears leather cock the hammer. As gun comes level, press the trigger. Such situations are not range politically correct, it is a matter of life and death. Such gymnastics taught at most ranges/classes fly out the window in such circumstances. The practice of bringing the gun to the mid chest, grasping with off hand, then presenting will most likely get you killed.

And, yes, I've handled both Single Action and double action revolvers. Rigid index finger plays no part in my practice. Applying pressure to the trigger at the right time does. And this has been my practice for over sixty years. Negligent discharges to date = 0.

Let the flak commence.

Bob Wright

I'm going to agree with Bob on this one. Clint Smith made this point years ago, that "finger off the trigger" does not mean finger out of the triggerguard. This non-negotiable safety-Nazi practice of "finger off the trigger" has mutated into never putting your finger into the triggerguard. Further, if you are drawing your sidearm to engage a threat, the decision has already been made to fire the weapon. As soon as the sixgun clears leather, the hammer should start coming back and the finger goes into the triggerguard. the finger does not go onto the trigger until the gun comes up and you are ready to fire. The decision can be made NOT to fire at any time.



Wrong.

I am going to affirm what has been said by Bob Wright and CraigC. The OP brought up a valid point, and I am not going to remain silent, outside the discussion, for this one. Folks with long fingers can have a devil of a time manipulating a single-action sixgun, with the trigger finger indexing outside the trigger guard. And, depending upon one’s hand size and shape, indexing the back of the trigger finger, against the INSIDE FRONT portion of the trigger guard, can nicely facilitate thumb cocking. So, for folks who regularly rely upon single-action sixguns, there is no Disturbance In The Force, here.

To be clear, I do not advocate that any person change any well-thought-out, best-practice, safety-related behavior that has been learned, but, yes, indeed, I learned to shoot revolvers during a time when keeping the finger totally outside the trigger guard was not yet a total doctrine. It was taught, at the time, to keep the finger OFF the trigger, but, it was acceptable, and, to a degree, still taught, to keep the back of the finger in contact with the front of the trigger guard. Yes, the inside surface, of the front of the trigger guard, WAS often accepted, as a place to index one’s trigger finger. I had, however, first learned to keep my finger outside the trigger guard, when using a 1911 pistol, my first handgun, so, that was/is my default behavior. Notably, I do not have long index fingers.

The straight-finger method is what was taught, with duty revolvers, when I attended the police academy, in 1983-1984. Notably, some LE trainers, elsewhere, were still teaching back-of-finger against the inside of the front of the trigger guard, with DA revolvers.

Yes, of course, anyone who uses pistols, with partially-cocked or fully-cocked strikers, should use the finger-OUTSIDE-the-trigger-guard, as the default, for all firearms. Index that trigger finger WAY UP there, on or by the slide, of autos, and well up on the frame, if a revolver. It is a best practice.

Single-action sixgunning, with purpose-built single-action revolvers, is unlike shooting any of the other generally-available types of handguns. This is why I do not recommend/advocate that anyone use such single-action revolving pistols as defensive weapons. BUT, intensely interested individuals can, indeed, operate at a different level, so, I have no problem accepting that some will choose to draw the weapon, in the way described by Bob Wright.

The Bob Wrights, among us, are not going to harm themselves, or others, with his method, because it is safe, for their applications, and, they are not also using Glocks, or striker-fired S&W M&P autos, or similar pistols.

I have tried to choose my words carefully. Again, I emphasize that I am not advocating that anyone adopt the single-action sixgun for defensive use, or that anyone use ANY single-action sixgunning methods to handle firearms other than single-action sixguns.

Notably, the trigger of an SAA-pattern revolver is “dead,” until the hammer is cocked. In effect, running the SAA is about hammer management, rather than trigger management. Apples and turnips. I can disassemble one of my SAA-pattern USFA Single Action revolvers, and put it back together, WITHOUT the trigger. I can then fire the weapon solely by “slip-shooting.” The trigger is not a necessary part, of an SAA-pattern revolving pistol. Safely handling an SAA-pattern revolving pistols is all about that hammer. (I do not know my way ‘round, inside a New Model Ruger, or other “modern” single-actions, so they are not part of what I am saying.)

Again, to be clear, anyone who learned to keep the index finger outside of the trigger guard, until ready to shoot, should continue to follow that training.
 
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I am going to affirm what has been said by Bob Wright and CraigC. The OP brought up a valid point, and I am not going to remain silent, outside the discussion, for this one. Folks with long fingers can have a devil of a time manipulating a single-action sixgun, with the trigger finger indexing outside the trigger guard. And, depending upon one’s hand size and shape, indexing the back of the trigger finger, against the INSIDE FRONT portion of the trigger guard, can nicely facilitate thumb cocking. So, for folks who regularly rely upon single-action sixguns, there is no Disturbance In The Force, here.

To be clear, I do not advocate that any person change any well-thought-out, best-practice, safety-related behavior that has been learned, but, yes, indeed, I learned to shoot revolvers during a time when keeping the finger totally outside the trigger guard was not yet a total doctrine. It was taught, at the time, to keep the finger OFF the trigger, but, it was acceptable, and, to a degree, still taught, to keep the back of the finger in contact with the front of the trigger guard. Yes, the inside surface, of the front of the trigger guard, WAS often accepted, as a place to index one’s trigger finger. I had, however, first learned to keep my finger outside the trigger guard, when using a 1911 pistol, my first handgun, so, that was/is my default behavior. Notably, I do not have long index fingers.

The straight-finger method is what was taught, with duty revolvers, when I attended the police academy, in 1983-1984. Notably, some LE trainers, elsewhere, were still teaching back-of-finger against the inside of the front of the trigger guard, with DA revolvers.

Yes, of course, anyone who uses pistols, with partially-cocked or fully-cocked strikers, should use the finger-OUTSIDE-the-trigger-guard, as the default, for all firearms. Index that trigger finger WAY UP there, on or by the slide, of autos, and well up on the frame, if a revolver. It is a best practice.

Single-action sixgunning, with purpose-built single-action revolvers, is unlike shooting any of the other generally-available types of handguns. This is why I do not recommend/advocate that anyone use such single-action revolving pistols as defensive weapons. BUT, intensely interested individuals can, indeed, operate at a different level, so, I have no problem accepting that some will choose to draw the weapon, in the way described by Bob Wright.

The Bob Wrights, among us, are not going to harm themselves, or others, with his method, because it is safe, for their applications, and, they are not also using Glocks, or striker-fired S&W M&P autos, or similar pistols.

I have tried to choose my words carefully. Again, I emphasize that I am not advocating that anyone adopt the single-action sixgun for defensive use, or that anyone use ANY single-action sixgunning methods to handle firearms other than single-action sixguns.

Notably, the trigger of an SAA-pattern revolver is “dead,” until the hammer is cocked. In effect, running the SAA is about hammer management, rather than trigger management. Apples and turnips. I can disassemble one of my SAA-pattern USFA Single Action revolvers, and put it back together, WITHOUT the trigger. I can then fire the weapon solely by “slip-shooting.” The trigger is not a necessary part, of an SAA-pattern revolving pistol. Safely handling an SAA-pattern revolving pistols is all about that hammer. (I do not know my way ‘round, inside a New Model Ruger, or other “modern” single-actions, so they are not part of what I am saying.)

Again, to be clear, anyone who learned to keep the index finger outside of the trigger guard, until ready to shoot, should continue to follow that training.

Well reasoned response.
In my first reply in this thread I went with the bad habit and muscle memory thought. Upon reading posts by Bob Wright, Craig C, DWJ, Rexter, and others, I am of a different opinion now.
This is why these discussions are valuable. I have been a shooter for a very long time, but can still learn something new. It is why I enjoy the THR community.
Using a more traditional SA technique instead of strictly adhering to modern principles may very well improve my SA performance.
 
IMHO, loading different guns different ways leads to trouble. It should be second nature with no conscious thought. You can't do that if you have to pause to think, is this a traditional gun or a New Model??? I shoot more traditional guns than transfer bar guns so all mine are treated as five-shots.

Wouldn't that also apply to safe trigger management and safe gun handling? Handling different guns different NEVER leads to trouble? I sense a hint of hypocrisy in the air.

OP asked about GENERAL USE AND CARRY. As always, a wide open question with no specifics:

in regards to a single action revolver, and a single action revolver *only*... is it feasible to render the “finger/trigger” rule when ready to fire null and void since you’re literally dealing with a fancy paper weight until you cock the hammer ?

Let's refresh ourselves on the NRA's safe gun handling rules:
ALWAYS Keep The Gun Pointed In A Safe Direction
ALWAYS Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Ready To Shoot
ALWAYS Keep The Gun Unloaded Until Ready To Use

My thought was, "Until you're ready to shoot" means hammer back over a loaded round. "At the ready."

So, when it comes to slappin' leather against dangerous adversaries or CAS competitions, exactly which others of those rules don't apply? Just so we're all on the same page...

And then there are these oldy-moldy "rules" I suppose we can advise new shooters who ask questions about single-action revolver safety they can ignore completely:

Know your target and what is beyond.
Know how to use the gun safely.
Be sure the gun is safe to operate.
Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.
Wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.
Never use alcohol, over-the-counter drugs or prescription drugs before or while shooting.
Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.

Unless it's a single-action revolver. Then, tar-nashunsm Pilgrim! Y'all best have that trigger finger glued to your smoke-wagon when you slap leather against El Guano and his band o' Buscadaro's outside the O.K. Parking garage! Ain't no sense caring about what's on the other side a'cause'a I aibn't gonna miss! Safe ammo! Pish-posh, pardner, slap somethin' that fits and have at 'er! Yee-hawww! But it's as gar-an-tee you'll only need five rounds.

Yeah, we don't need no rules round here no more. Right.
 
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I am going to affirm what has been said by Bob Wright and CraigC.
Great post, well said. You articulate a point that I seem to miss in that, I do not generally recommend folks carry a single action for defense. I only illustrate why someone would, from my own perspective. Unlike some folks who feel the need to bludgeon others into submission until they trade their sixgun for a Glock, I gleefully let them make their own decision. While offering guidance if I can.


Wouldn't that also apply to safe trigger management and safe gun handling? Handling different guns different NEVER leads to trouble? I sense a hint of hypocrisy in the air.
My hands don't seem to have any trouble differentiating between a Colt SAA and a Beretta 92.


My thought was, "Until you're ready to shoot" means hammer back over a loaded round. "At the ready."
Once the muzzle clears leather, it is considered to be pointed downrange. So the finger goes into the triggerguard, mine leveraged like a prop rod and not against the trigger itself. So no, we're not breaking any rules.


I suppose we can advise new shooters who ask questions about single-action revolver safety they can ignore completely:
Nope. I think Clint Smith addressed this very well, the distinction between off the trigger and out of the triggerguard. Not only does he own and operate Thunder Ranch, he unloads his sixguns one-handed.
 
Perhaps for your world?
Many use their SAR for hunting, woods safety, homestead protection, plus perhaps an occasional inanimate target.
Locally, we have a feral dog issue. Sunny this afternoon, temp mid 40s, very pleasant watching the world go by at intersection of hay lot and corn field. Could hear a ruckus in the woods behind me, some seconds later a nice doe gallops out of woods, across hay lot - 10 seconds behind are a dog duo. FA83 finger on trigger spoke to the matter, hopefully the doe will meet a nice buck in the next few weeks.
Sorry if my bad habits trouble some.
I'm one of the many you mentioned.

I was just pointing out that that is not the norm and for folks who aren't in one in of those specific situations, no need to rush it. Isn't OP talking about a .22?

ETA: I quoted somebody on this post. Will fix it in a minute
 
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Great post, well said. You articulate a point that I seem to miss in that, I do not generally recommend folks carry a single action for defense. I only illustrate why someone would, from my own perspective. Unlike some folks who feel the need to bludgeon others into submission until they trade their sixgun for a Glock, I gleefully let them make their own decision. While offering guidance if I can.



My hands don't seem to have any trouble differentiating between a Colt SAA and a Beretta 92.



Once the muzzle clears leather, it is considered to be pointed downrange. So the finger goes into the triggerguard, mine leveraged like a prop rod and not against the trigger itself. So no, we're not breaking any rules.



Nope. I think Clint Smith addressed this very well, the distinction between off the trigger and out of the triggerguard. Not only does he own and operate Thunder Ranch, he unloads his sixguns one-handed.
"Once the muzzle clears leather, it is considered to be pointed downrange. So the finger goes into the triggerguard" I see a lot of tune-changing in that statement. Not too subtle, either. Then the opinions stated here agreeing with having the finger IN THE TRIGGER GUARD are strictly about competitive shooting? The OP did not specify he was only talking about competitive shooting but that any time one was carrying or using single-action revolver the "trigger/finger" rule was null and void. Is the assumption now that every use of a single-action takes place exclusively in the context of competitive shooting and those firearms serve no other purpose? As a regular hunter in dense tropical environments, I can't agree with that. I have never - and most likely never will - participated in a CAS or competitive sjngle-action revolver shooting event; however I do regularly hunt and carry in the open for protection from animals a variety of single-action revolvers, including Ruger New Models, a Taylor's small frame .38 with transfer bar safety and a tuned Pietta GW II - with a hammer-nose firing pin. Carrying any of the above with finger on trigger - as the OP asked but the CAS crowd seems not to recognize - is not "unsafe" any more than carrying six rounds in any of the above is "unsafe" if the only concern is an AD/ND. However, carrying any revolver or any pistol with a finger in the trigger guard on unstable, uneven, swampy ground or in thick palmettos is unsafe and downright stupid. It's a good way to end up with a broken finger or a missed shot, and possibly worse. There's more people in this world than competitive shooters. Just thought you'd like to know...

Are we still agreed that AS A GENERAL RULE keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to discharge the firearm, regardless of action type, is a common-sense and practical safety precaution? Nothing makes that rule null and void?
 
I'm one of the many you mentioned.

I was just pointing out that that is not the norm and for folks who aren't in one in of those specific situations, no need to rush it. Isn't OP talking about a .22?

ETA: I quoted somebody on this post. Will fix it in a minute
I'm one of those who hunt dangerous game with a revolver and won't even think about walking around with my finger on the trigger, gun at the ready. Don't typically holster it either. I carry in-hand, fingers around the frame, and know how to act quickly when I sniff an animal or hear a ruckus. I also aim. It helps. I'm not shooting steel plates or carboard cutouts. Missing a boar hog who just switched from flight mode to fight mode at 10 feet comes with serious consequences. Wounding such an animal puts it in fight-to-the-death mode. Hip gunning, slapping leather cowboy style, is a fools game in such circumstances and those folks end up with tusks through the calf muscle. I've seen it too many times over the decades. As for recreational shooting, walk around with your finger on the trigger at a range and the RO is likely to ask you politely to follow the basic NRA safety rules; followed by a not so polite request to leave the range for failure to comply. Do that at one of our informal shooting sessions around here and you'll be asked politely to leave. Argue with that polite request and you'll end up with a SAR suppository. On your land, with your buddies, away from people who are following the basic rules? Fine and dandy. Have at it.
 
Are we still agreed that AS A GENERAL RULE keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to discharge the firearm, regardless of action type, is a common-sense and practical safety precaution? Nothing makes that rule null and void?

I'm not going to go back and read the whole thread again but I don't remember anyone saying your finger should be "on" the trigger: when you clear leather; when you are cocking the gun; or when you're walking around with the gun in your hand. As the the last point...that's what holsters are for. I've been shooting single action revolvers (loaded with only five rounds) for 54 years. I've never "walked around" the desert, the mountains, or anywhere on uneven ground with a revolver or semi auto in my hand with one exception. When I was a working law enforcement officer I did clear a few buildings and search for armed suspects with my duty weapon in hand, and I did it the way I was trained to do so. An entirely different situation than what's being discussed here. Oh, and I didn't have my finger on the trigger then either.

Dave
 
"I see a lot of tune-changing in that statement. Not too subtle, either.
I don't know how you figure that, wishful thinking I guess. I'm not a competitive shooter so I'm not sure where that came from either.


I'm one of those who hunt dangerous game with a revolver and won't even think about walking around with my finger on the trigger, gun at the ready. Don't typically holster it either. I carry in-hand, fingers around the frame, and know how to act quickly when I sniff an animal or hear a ruckus. I also aim. It helps. I'm not shooting steel plates or carboard cutouts. Missing a boar hog who just switched from flight mode to fight mode at 10 feet comes with serious consequences. Wounding such an animal puts it in fight-to-the-death mode. Hip gunning, slapping leather cowboy style, is a fools game in such circumstances and those folks end up with tusks through the calf muscle. I've seen it too many times over the decades. As for recreational shooting, walk around with your finger on the trigger at a range and the RO is likely to ask you politely to follow the basic NRA safety rules; followed by a not so polite request to leave the range for failure to comply. Do that at one of our informal shooting sessions around here and you'll be asked politely to leave. Argue with that polite request and you'll end up with a SAR suppository. On your land, with your buddies, away from people who are following the basic rules? Fine and dandy. Have at it.
Total straw argument. No one is talking about walking around the woods or the shooting range with their finger on the trigger.
 
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LOL!! Okay so from now on the common SAR wisdom of this site is: carry hammer down with your finger on the trigger with six loaded in a modern SAR. Can we throw in texting while driving, especially if you’re going really fast? Is eating razor blades and juggling rattlesnakes still a bad idea? :)

This is like watching CNN news channel. You see, hear, or read something and they tell you that you didn’t see what you saw, hear what you heard, or read what you read.

Nowhere in this thread have I felt that anyone was saying “finger on the trigger” is okay. In the guard doesn’t mean on the trigger. No one is saying a live round under the hammer without a transfer bar type safety is ok either.

Just because I don’t agree with someone else’s opinion doesn’t make them wrong. I am in the group that has the finger off the trigger but in the guard during the draw. I have never in 50+ years of SA handling had a N/D or A/D.

Someone up line mentioned the Range Officer. IF one tries to correct me on this matter I will politely inform him that he passed two No Trespassing signs getting to my range and he needs pass them from the backside on the way out.
 
This is like watching CNN news channel. You see, hear, or read something and they tell you that you didn’t see what you saw, hear what you heard, or read what you read.

Nowhere in this thread have I felt that anyone was saying “finger on the trigger” is okay. In the guard doesn’t mean on the trigger. No one is saying a live round under the hammer without a transfer bar type safety is ok either.

Just because I don’t agree with someone else’s opinion doesn’t make them wrong. I am in the group that has the finger off the trigger but in the guard during the draw. I have never in 50+ years of SA handling had a N/D or A/D.

Someone up line mentioned the Range Officer. IF one tries to correct me on this matter I will politely inform him that he passed two No Trespassing signs getting to my range and he needs pass them from the backside on the way out.
I’ve a question... in regards to a single action revolver, and a single action revolver *only*... is it feasible to render the “finger/trigger” rule when ready to fire null and void since you’re literally dealing with a fancy paper weight until you cock the hammer ? In all my years, since I “grew up” and got long fingers, never been able to get my trigger finger into the trigger guard in a timely manner without sticking it in the trigger guard during the draw and not cocking until properly on target.
It was in the OP.
 
your trigger finger pushing forward on the trigger guard is the leverage you need to be able to cock the single action revolver with the shooting hand. so the trigger finger has to get into the trigger guard as soon as possible if you want to cock the gun "on the way out" before the sights are on target. the finger is not on the trigger until after the hammer is cocked (and the gun is pointed down range).

what rule is broken here (rhetorical)?

murf
 
The quote you posted says “getting finger in the trigger guard” no where does it say “on the trigger”. Go back and re- read it.
"...is it feasible to render the “finger/trigger” rule when ready to fire null and void"
I read it. You didn't. The "finger/trigger" rule is, as stated by the NRA: "ALWAYS Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Ready To Shoot"

But, you can keep beating this dead horse, trying to justify being stupid if you'd like. Hopefully your next/first AD won't hurt anybody.

I'm giving up on this useless waste of bandwidth. Be as unsafe as you please. Just not near me.
 
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