Cooper's Third Rule And Revolvers

[The Real Hawkeye]

I'm sorry but a heavier pull is NOT a safety feature.

Actually, it is. And it's not just a heavier pull. There is a distance which must be traversed before the weapon can be made to fire. It is this feature which is the reason the double action revolver has no manual safety switches. It doesn't need any, as, unless it is manually thumb-cocked, it cannot be fired without an intentional long squeeze of the trigger under spring resistance. Yes, I can imagine circumstances where it could be inadvertently pulled to its full distance, but then people are also struck by lightning once in a while. We live is such a world. Nothing is perfectly safe under all circumstances. Life is about compromises. This is a more than acceptable compromise between preparedness and safety. The ability to safely place one's finger on the trigger of an uncocked double action revolver is its main advantage over the auto pistol.

 

[Soap]

Actually, it is. And it's not just a heavier pull. There is a distance which must be traversed before the weapon can be made to fire. It is this feature which is the reason the double action revolver has no manual safety switches. It doesn't need any, as, unless it is manually thumb-cocked, it cannot be fired without an intentional long squeeze of the trigger under spring resistance. Yes, I can imagine circumstances where it could be inadvertently pulled to its full distance, but then people are also struck by lightning once in a while. We live is such a world. Nothing is perfectly safe under all circumstances. Life is about compromises. This is a more than acceptable compromise between preparedness and safety. The ability to safely place one's finger on the trigger of an uncocked double action revolver is its main advantage over the auto pistol.

# of people who have had an ND with a DA revolver: many
# of people who have had an ND with their finger off the trigger: zero. Having your finger off the trigger is "perfectly safe under all circumstances". So unless something else catches and pulls the trigger, you have zero chance of an ND.

 

[s&w 24]

after thinking a bit on this one the practice of puting your finger on the trigger before your on target is a bad Idea. The practice went out in the 50's for a good reason you can screw up and put a round thru your leg! Back when Col. Cooper was forming what is now the modern method there were alot of cops still using revolvers and if the Col. saw fit he would have included a bit on "staging" a DA trigger. With proper management of a DA trigger you don't need to do anything but squeeze the trigger in an even manner no tricks or gimmicks.

Additionaly it navy s.e.a.l's de-cock and remove there fingers from the trigger before moving from point to point with there sig's then I think I'll do the same OR keep the finger off my DA revo if I'm doing the same.

 

[formerflyer]

s&w 24
"Back when Col. Cooper was forming what is now the modern method there were alot of cops still using revolvers and if the Col. saw fit he would have included a bit on "staging" a DA trigger."

He did. See post 111 of this thread, especially the quotes about step 4 and step 5. If that's not staging a trigger, I'll eat my hat. Not saying whether it is the best or safest way to run a revolver, but you can't say that the Colonel didn't recommend it.

 

[s&w 24]

a fellow THR member pointed out to me that the Col. used to put his finger on the trigger before being on target but that was before He knew better as writen by the good Col's daughter in his biography.

The big big problem you can run ito is if your used to having your finger on the trigger as part of the draw when you are not on target comes when you reholster. If you like bullets in your boots keep it up but as for me I'll keep my finger off the trigger untill on target.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

The big big problem you can run ito is if your used to having your finger on the trigger as part of the draw when you are not on target comes when you reholster. If you like bullets in your boots keep it up but as for me I'll keep my finger off the trigger untill on target.

In a quick draw drill, I happen to agree with you. I personally don't train starting with my finger on the trigger while in the holster. Once I have cleared my holster, and the weapon is facing halfway to horizontal, my finger goes in the trigger guard and in contact with the trigger face, so that by the time I am on target, my finger is already there and beginning to squeeze while I put the front sight on COM. Others follow the Jordan method, and if that's what they train for, and they put their thumb on the hammer, I have no criticism of it. I certainly am in no position to argue with the likes of Bill Jordan.

Here's an example of what I am MOSTLY referring to: You are in an office building. You hear gun shots and people screaming and running in your direction. Your office has no back door, and in comes a man in fatigues holding a pump shotgun, pistol strapped on his belt with five mags in pouches and a bandolier of shotgun shells over his chest, blasting secretaries as they flee, but he doesn't see you. Your double action revolver is ALREADY DRAWN, as it came out when the shooting and screaming started. You are behind cover, but peering at the lunatic around the edge of the doorway, your office lights are off, as you flipped them when you heard the shooting. Soon as he gets within 20 feet or so, you plan to pop him. No cocking, as that would give your position away. Is your finger out of the trigger guard RIGHT NOW, or is it lightly touching the trigger face? Mine will be lightly touching the trigger face, in preparation to best use my weapon to save my life, thank you very much. I will not wait till the last second to haphazardly thrust my trigger finger into the guard as I turn to take aim and fire. Rule number three be damned.

Now, if my weapon were a Browning High Power or a Government Model, manual safety would be engaged, trigger finger would be out of the trigger guard parallel to the barrel, and thumb would be resting on the top of the manual safety, even at this point, and this would not change until I brought it up to actually take aim and shoot. Different story because different weapon. You have to know your weapon, and which rules apply at which times and which do not. It would be totally unsafe to take the safety off and place my trigger finger on the trigger face of my High Power or Government model until I am actually going for the shot. This is not the case with the double action revolver.

 

[Magnumite]

Alot about the da trigger being too long to inadvertantly fire the pistol. I know there are competitive shooters posting in this thread. How many of you actually remember pulling the trigger everytime in a fast pin string or plate match? I don't always, I go on autopilot, only stopping by range and R.O. stimulous.

I am not talking about awareness here. That is a different issue. Any of us, focused on a threat, or responding to a seemingly life threatening gesture, or startle response, or even stumbling from our reactive movements, can pull that DA trigger without batting an eye. Finger on the frame gives that time to prevent an ND.

I'll side with the group who say go with finger off the trigger until the gun is aligned on a must shoot senario. There was the early post about assessing the level of the threat...there is something to said for that also.

Just my .02

 

[BullfrogKen]

Gordon said: I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses?

I am curious about this as well. . .

The Real Hawkeye said: Now, if my weapon were a Browning High Power or a Government Model, manual safety would be engaged, trigger finger would be out of the trigger guard parallel to the barrel, and thumb would be resting on the top of the manual safety, even at this point, and this would not change until I brought it up to actually take aim and shoot. Different story because different weapon.

And why? Why is it different than your justification to break Rule #3? Lord, I can squeeze the trigger of a handgun with a manual safety engaged until the cows come home and it won't go off.

I've seen you defend this for 2 reasons - one is the time factor involved, which if you actually measured is no negligible as to be nothing. The other being you can't handle a revolver well without doing this. You wouldn't be the first who used a gun that doesn't fit them correctly. I can't support your position for either of those reasons.

The Real Hawkeye said: I will not wait till the last second to haphazardly thrust my trigger finger into the guard as I turn to take aim and fire. Rule number three be damned.

OK. Fine. You do whatever you want. Why do you feel so compelled to argue this point to convince us its ok, or have us agree you can safely pull it off?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ken, you've mischaracterized my position. I will leave the record to speak for itself about what I've said. People don't need to learn my position through the filter of Bullfrogken.

 

[.38 Special]

Why does this thread still exist? Seems like the fellow who posted Cooper's "rule #3 exception" with DA revolvers would have ended the bulk of discussion.

Look, I play with the Jordan method, and I think it's pretty obviously dangerous. I only do it with wax bullets because the risk of shooting yourself is apparent.

But is anyone really advocating that sort of thing? Seems to me the argument is pretty much about "Rule #3 absolutism" where some folks seem to believe you can't, under any circumstance, touch the face of the trigger until the sights are aligned on target. Now that Jerry Miculek, Rob Leatham, and Jeff Cooper have thoughtfully provided evidence against this idea, it's kind of hard to understand why people are still stumping for it.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I can squeeze the trigger of a handgun with a manual safety engaged until the cows come home and it won't go off.

This deserves a comment. Under stress, it is pretty easy to accidentally apply enough downward pressure to the thumb safety to disengage it. If your thumb is riding atop the manual safety and your trigger finger is on the hair trigger of an auto pistol when this happens, the weapon will discharge. This is why one keeps one's finger off the trigger face of such a weapon (indeed any cocked, or partially cocked weapon such as a Glock), even when the safety is engaged. You should not place your trigger finger on the trigger face of a loaded and cocked (or even partially cocked) semi-auto pistol unless you are pointing the gun in the direction you wish to fire it at the time. Additionally, never trust a safety switch on a gun. They have been known to fail. It is a different animal entirely from the uncocked double action revolver. They should not be compared, only contrasted, in relation to rule number three. It's being uncocked is the key difference.

 

[GRIZ22]

Quote:

But is anyone really advocating that sort of thing? Seems to me the argument is pretty much about "Rule #3 absolutism" where some folks seem to believe you can't, under any circumstance, touch the face of the trigger until the sights are aligned on target.

38 special, no one is advocating keeping your finger off the trigger until you sights are aligned. They are saying keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. There is a distinct difference. See my post #114. Another example would be point shooting where you are not using the sights.

You won't see any pro shooter with their finger on the trigger of anything until they are ready to fire.

Training to keep you finger on the trigger with DA revolvers and off the trigger on semi-autos is contradictory to muscle memory training. If you get the two methods confused in stressful situations it can be disasterous. Train one way with finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire and it will work for any firearm.

Most people don't have Dirty Harry's composure in stressful situations. Besides Harry knows what's coming up in the script.

 

[.38 Special]

38 special, no one is advocating keeping your finger off the trigger until you sights are aligned.

Actually, there are a number of people here who are saying exactly that. The rule is "KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET". I suppose we could dicker over my use of the word "aligned"...

You won't see any pro shooter with their finger on the trigger of anything until they are ready to fire.

I have several videotapes in my library that disprove that, and I also have a copy of Jerry Miculek's intructional video where he recomends "prepping" -- ie. applying pressure too -- the trigger as the gun is coming up from the holster.

Which is consistent with the passage recently reprinted here wherein Mr. Cooper himself "allows" this technique. Which again leaves me wondering why this thread is still around.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

You should not place your trigger finger on the trigger face of a loaded and cocked (or even partially cocked) semi-auto pistol unless you are pointing the gun in the direction you wish to fire it at the time.

Why not? The Col. was speaking of double-action weapons, not just revolvers.

“With trigger-cocking (“double-action”) weapons, the trigger finger may enter the guard at Step Two. Three is safer, however. (Note: With a cross draw keep the muzzle below the supporting arm as the piece is advanced.)

Cooper was a precise writer, and if meant to exclude the crunchenticker he would have done so.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Not if they are cocked, or even partially cocked.

 

[BullfrogKen]

The Real Hawkeye said:

I can squeeze the trigger of a handgun with a manual safety engaged until the cows come home and it won't go off.

This deserves a comment. Under stress, it is pretty easy to accidentally apply enough downward pressure to the thumb safety to disengage it.

Ahhh . . . I see . . . So, there's NO chance stress can cause someone to pull a D.A. revolver trigger to the rear . . . But, there IS the chance stress can cause one to both thumb off a safety and pull the trigger on a autoloader, and its likely enough that violating Rule #3 on an autoloader is unsafe. Physical and mental training won't prevent it on an autoloader, but it will on a revolver. We can't trust a safety switch . . . but we can trust the longer, heavy pull of a trigger without a safety.

You were better off advocating your technique back when you were relying on the words of the Apostle Jeff to help support it. This one's so thin its anorexic.


Training and techniques actually DO evolve over time. Has anyone here actually been to Gunsite to see what they teach for a revolver lately? Miculek is involved in handgun sports and competition. I'd have to say I regard his comments as limited to such an arena.

Context . . . its all about context.


I'll point you back to my comments when I first entered this thread, Hawkeye:

OK. Cooper and Jordon are not the Apostle Jeff and Saint Bill. . . .
I don't think its wise to think we can carelessly ignore a rule because our weapons system is OK with it, or since it has a larger margin of error so it doesn't apply.


All this said, I do think there are times when we will consciously and deliberately violate those rules because its appropriate or necessary. Are we masters of the rules, or mastered by them.

However, I do not agree with the rationale that a revolvers longer trigger pull is one of those circumstances. If you want to, go ahead. I don't think you'll have much success convincing folks. Training evolves. Jordan may have advocated it. I'm sure there are still a few out there that do.

I don't think this rule has anything to do with lawyers, but safety, and not shooting people and things we didn't intend.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Ahhh . . . I see . . . So, there's NO chance stress can cause someone to pull a D.A. revolver trigger to the rear . . . But, there IS the chance stress can cause one to both thumb off a safety and pull the trigger on a autoloader?

Both the manual safety and the trigger on a cocked auto pistol are very light touches. On the thumb safety, once you apply the very little force necessary, the detent is disengaged, and resistance drops to zero. The trigger is similar. Not comparable to the long, relatively heavy straight through, trigger stroke of an uncocked double action revolver. Not even close. It's a different animal, with different rules for safe handling in combat. A comparison can only be drawn when the double action revolver is first thumb cocked. Then all the same rules apply as for a cocked auto pistol, shotgun or rifle. To keep it all straight in your head, think cocked = trigger finger off trigger till time to fire. Simple rule.

 

[Andrew S]

Cosmoline;

I've read many of your posts over the past couple of years, and I quite respect your views and opinions. I appreciate your bringing up this topic. I'm not sure I appreciate the subtle flames from others. You've brought up an interesting point that merits discussion.

The real reason to always follow rule 3 is sympathetic muscle reactions. Sympathetic muscle reaction is when a muscle on one part of your body instinctively reacts along with another muscle. For example, close one eye and then move your other, open eye from side to side. You can't make your one, closed eye stay still. A sympathetic reaction.

There are other sympathetic reactions, and in the hand they occur instinctively. One that's most often seen is when falling.

So, at the range this is probably no big deal. But in a home defense or hunting situation, you don't want to trip when your gun's drawn, since you may have a sympathetic response to clench your hand to avoid dropping your expensive revolver. Hopefully your thumb catches the hammer. In a defensive situation, the last thing you want to do is put a round through the wall of your house, and into your neighbor's. While hunting, a round in your leg or your buddy would ruin the trip.

I really enjoyed VA27's post about the rules and trying to break them. I'll probably unashamedly use that at one time or another.

-John

Bingo. There is much more to worry about than your grip under normal circumstances. There is the unpredictable, the unintentional, and the accidental as well.

You may trip or be pushed to the ground. During your fall your might clench up or you might land in a way that causes you to pull the trigger.

There are also rogue reflexes to worry about. We all know how flinching can affect our accuracy and we all work on being used to loud noises. However, under pressure in the dead of night when your heart is racing is not a situation most of us are used to holding a firearm. If you finger is on the trigger when an unexpected loud noise is made there is a chance you could jump and end up squeezing the trigger.

We should all be past the "that can't happen to me" way of thinking. I do not see how we can argue about this.


If that isn't enough to consider there is always your control of the firearm to consider. I was trained to always pull the hammer back with my non-shooting hand to maintain a strong grip on my firearm. A quick demonstration on how easy it is to take the gun out of my hand when using the thump of my shooting hand on the hammer was enough to convince me. Of course, this assumes perfect conditions for yourself. If your non-shooting hand is injured or there is little risk of a take away and more risk somewhere else the shooting hand might be your best choice. However, to train to keep that loose grip all of the time is just silly to me.