Cooper's Third Rule And Revolvers

[Soap]

Nothing against anyone personally but that hammer method is not only unsafe for all the reasons mentioned, but it is a slippery slope. So on leverguns can you keep the lever just out of battery and your finger on the trigger? How about 1911s with the hammer forward? Bolt guns with the bolts retracted? Autos with the slide locked back? Pump actions with the pump slightly rearward?

And to top it all off, try keeping good weapon retention on the drawstroke with your thumb like that on a DA revolver...

 

[Cosmoline]

So on leverguns can you keep the lever just out of battery and your finger on the trigger? How about 1911s with the hammer forward? Bolt guns with the bolts retracted? Autos with the slide locked back? Pump actions with the pump slightly rearward?

It's only a "slippery slope" if you're stupid enough to try a John Wayne carry on your levergun! Once again, we're talking about uncocked revolvers and you're bringing up a bunch of different firearms. Why keep changing the subject?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Hawkeye,

Allow me to ask you a question . . . . Two armed men have made the decision, for whatever reasons, to exchange rounds at each other. Guns are coming to bear, or are already at bear on one another, but the actual shots have not yet been touched off. But they are about to . . . in units of time measured in tenths of seconds. Which act is more likely to give one of them a chance of winning that fight? Shooting or moving?

Tough call.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Reason I bring it up is that those few tenths of a second that decides a who will come out ahead in a gunfight, if indeed anyone will because it is possible that they tie and both lose, have less to do with gaining the edge in the fashion you describe.


Have you actually measured the difference in time, on a timer, between having a finger on the trigger, and having it indexed along the gun?

 

[Soap]

It's only a "slippery slope" if you're stupid enough to try a John Wayne carry on your levergun! Once again, we're talking about uncocked revolvers and you're bringing up a bunch of different firearms. Why keep changing the subject?

How is the "John Wayne" carry on the levergun any less safe than your revolver method? Also, what about weapon retention?

 

[Cosmoline]

How is the "John Wayne" carry on the levergun any less safe than your revolver method? Also, what about weapon retention?

John Wayne would carry the '92 with the hammer COCKED and his finger pressing the trigger. He'd keep a gloved thumb on the hammer. That's quite a bit different than guarding the spur of an UNCOCKED revolver hammer while keeping a finger ready at a double action trigger.

What about weapon retention?

 

[John C]

The Real Hawkeye said:

"So, Griz, you're a cop who is carefully entering an abandoned building you just saw an armed mugger run in to. You have a double action revolver. Is your finger lightly touching the trigger face as you carefully enter and begin to turn wide corners, or is your finger pointing straight out until the bad guy actually steps out from behind a corner, gun pointing in your direction? Be honest now."

The answer, in my case, and all of the local police depts' cases, is yes.

However, no officer is going in to a building like that unless it's an active shooter situation. However, when the time comes and someone does go in, their finger will be on the side of the pistol, shotgun, AR or subgun. (Or TAZER, for that matter)

-John

 

[John C]

Bullfrog Ken said:

"Allow me to ask you a question . . . . Two armed men have made the decision, for whatever reasons, to exchange rounds at each other. Guns are coming to bear, or are already at bear on one another, but the actual shots have not yet been touched off. But they are about to . . . in units of time measured in tenths of seconds. Which act is more likely to give one of them a chance of winning that fight? Shooting or moving?

I attended a class by an instructor that had done research on this subject with the Fresno, California PD SWAT team. Each of the subjects had been in one or more officer involved shootings, and all of them said that if they were to relive any one of their individual shootings, EACH and EVERY time they would've opted to move versus shoot, when they had actually done the opposite in their actual shootings. Moving is perhaps the most important aspect of survival in a shooting, whether the aggressor or defender. Moving correctly amplifies your advantages and neutralizes your opponents'.

-John

 

[Gordon]

And to really get off the subject: shooting while moving, once mastered is pretty darn deadly! I started doing it at Starlight Academy way back when , and refined it the last 10 years under Louis Awerbuck and Scott Reitz. I still have a long way to go. And yes, Virginia, your finger is in full contact with the trigger THIS time, as you are SHOOTING the hostiles! Please no assinine quips about removing your finger as you traverse no shoot targets. We are gunfighting here, not line dancing, and there are calculated risks involved in use of deadly force!

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

What Gordon said.

 

[formerflyer]

That minor vibration you're feeling is JC spinning in his grave. . .

I hate to be the one to pour cold water on a good flame war, but since it appears that none of you took a revolver class from the good Colonel, did it occur to anybody to read what he WROTE about the subject? From:

To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth
Copy write 1988 by Gunsite Raven Corporation
P.p. 107-108, “The Firing Stroke”
“Step Two [of six]
“Break the piece clear of the leather, upward if you use a pouch holster, forward if you use a break-front. Do not move it further than just clear. Do not depress the safety. Do not insert the trigger finger in the guard. This is most important. Failure to heed can hurt.
“(Note: At least one master marksman pops the safety in the holster. That is his method and he is welcome to it, since he will make no mistakes. He does not gain speed that way, however, as others just as fast as he do not do it. Leave the safety on until the third step.)
“With trigger-cocking (“double-action”) weapons, the trigger finger may enter the guard at Step Two. Three is safer, however. (Note: With a cross draw keep the muzzle below the supporting arm as the piece is advanced.)
“Step Three
“Advance the piece halfway from the holster to the waiting left hand. Depress the safety. Keep the index finger straight. (Except with double-action, where there is no safety latch and the finger enters the trigger guard.)
“Step Four
“Join hands, and initiate counter pressure, right hand against left. Now place the finger on the trigger. (D.A.’s commence squeeze.) Keep the muzzle depressed about 15 degrees below line of sight and maintain focus on the target.
“Step Five
"Line up. Force the left elbow away from the side. Increase counter-pressure. Shift focus from target to front sight. Take up trigger slack, if cocked. If double-action, press trigger about halfway back. (You can still check your complete stroke at this point, with practice.)”

Five pages of argument, 110 individual posts, and nobody bothered to maybe ask someone that took a revolver class from him, or look it up in his published works. The problem with quoting an expert to start a discussion is that most of us don’t bother to look for the quote that’s actually on point. Think maybe the discussion might have been more on point if someone had read the above?

 

[LightningJoe]

Hey. Don't confuse everything. We were almost at a breakthrough.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Five pages of argument, 110 individual posts, and nobody bothered to maybe ask someone that took a revolver class from him, or look it up in his published works. The problem with quoting an expert to start a discussion is that most of us don’t bother to look for the quote that’s actually on point. Think maybe the discussion might have been more on point if someone had read the above?

Thanks, Formerflyer. I must have read that classic a half dozen times over the last ten years, and still didn't think to take a look back at what he said about the firing stroke for the purposes of this debate. You've settled the point very well. Cooper himself makes a narrow exception for rule number 3, but ONLY when it comes to the double action revolver, as I've said from the beginning.

You all can start posting your apologies now.

 

[GRIZ22]

Real Hawkeye you said in your original post:

Don't know about a single action revolver, but on a double action revolver, it is perfectly safe to have your finger on the trigger before you are ready to fire.

formerflyer's Cooper quote is based on Cooper's description of "when he is ready to fire". It says entering the trigger guard after step 2, when the gun is clear of the leather. Cooper's attention to detail makes note to mention it's safer to enter the trigger guard after step 3 when the gun is halfway up from the holster. Don't take Cooper's description out of context.

There is nothing different in what I have advocated and what Cooper says.

John C. gave my answer to your question to me in #107. Especially the part about not entering the building. That would be Tombstone courage. Yes my finger would be on the trigger as I am ready to fire under cover.

As far as trying to outdraw someone or when you have already taken fire and your gun is in the holster the best approach is to move to cover. If you take cover first you stand a good chance of surviving. The only reason to shoot on the move is to get to cover as you have already taken fire.

Unless you are ready to fire having your finger on the trigger is inviting problems.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Griz, in my second post I clarified what I had said in my first.

It is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable. That said, when not in a combat situation, no fingers should be inside the trigger guard of ANY weapon until the muzzle is pointing at something you are willing to destroy.

The exception for double action revolvers is very narrow, and only applies to the most extreme levels of condition orange [said orange here because I thought orange meant you had decided to shoot if the identified threat makes a hostile move, but have since been informed that this is actually condition red], i.e., a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move. In this case, finger not only can be inside the trigger guard OF A DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER, it should be inside the trigger guard, and may even be resting lightly on the trigger face. If it is outside the trigger guard pointing straight during this phase, you are taking an unnecessary risk with your life.

Cooper, in the book referred to, clearly stated that there is a narrow exception to rule number 3 for double action revolvers. This is a contradiction of the opposing view expressed many times in this thread that double action revolvers go by rule number 3 in exactly the same way as auto pistols. Your side in this debate, even according to Cooper, therefore, is incorrect. Don't be a spin doctor.

 

[GRIZ22]

a goblin has been identified, and you have decided to shoot him if he makes a hostile move.

According to the quote from your thread "you are ready to fire". What I have been saying all along.

I'm not being a spin doctor. If it makes you feel better calling me a spin doctor feel free, I've been called much worst.

 

[BullfrogKen]

The Real Hawkeye said: It is very difficult to go from an index finger straight and forward position to firing a double action revolver, making them next to useless in combat if the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard until the point when immediate discharge is desirable.

If you have such difficulty getting your finger from index position to trigger, so much that you believe it makes your gun next to useless . . . I suggest the gun doesn't fit you correctly.

I'll ask again, have you actually measured the time, on a timer, between taking an indexed shot and one with your finger on the trigger? Set up a target, start from a draw, low ready, whatever position you desire.

I believe you'll find the time difference insignificant. And this is the crux of your arguement, as I've seen it presented, that advocates this technique.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Bullfrogger, the nature of a well aimed and executed shot from an uncocked double action revolver is such that it cannot easily be done in a jerking motion, as would be required if you must wait till the exact instant you wish to fire the gun before you place your finger inside the trigger guard, let alone on the trigger face, as your side has insisted is required for safety. You will likely miss your target this way. Therefore, when one is using a double action revolver, and the revolver is not cocked, it would be foolish, as has been my argument from the first page of this thread, to wait till the instant firing is necessitated by circumstances before one places one's trigger finger inside the trigger guard and in contact with the trigger face. It appears that on this point, Jeff Cooper agrees. This was the crux of this debate, that, and the relative safety of doing so due to the design of double action revolvers.

 

[Soap]

John Wayne would carry the '92 with the hammer COCKED and his finger pressing the trigger. He'd keep a gloved thumb on the hammer. That's quite a bit different than guarding the spur of an UNCOCKED revolver hammer while keeping a finger ready at a double action trigger.

What about weapon retention?

The way I see it, either way is unsafe, you have your finger on the trigger which can fire the weapon at any time. The other examples I provided are no different than your method: finger on the trigger but rely on some exploitation of the action to not fire the weapon.

Weapon retention...have you tried drawing like that with a blue gun and having somebody grab the gun? Anybody could snatch the revolver out of your hand easily while holding it like that.

 

[Imaginos]

Related Thread From Sixgunner.com

One of the gang at Sixgunner.com posted some x-rays from a man who managed to shoot himself in the lower leg because he broker Rule 3.

http://forums.sixgunner.com/This_is_what_shooting_yourself_with_a_44_mag_will_do!/m_71258/tm.htm

I guess this pretty much closes up the Rule 3 debate. If you are not in Condition Red with a specifically identified target and IMMEDIATE need, Rule 3 applies.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I guess this pretty much closes up the Rule 3 debate.

Yeah, and I guess driving your car to work is out too. I hear that, once in a while, people fall asleep at the wheel, drive into a pole and get killed that way. Back to horse and buggy, I reckon.

 

[mikey357]

BullfrogKen makes an EXCELLENT point about the difference in time between the finger-on-the-side-of-the-frame and the finger-already-on-the-trigger when the shooter decides to fire the shot...HAS anyone MEASURED that time difference...BESIDES ME???
I regularly shoot at a "Half-Scale" Pepper-popper in the back yard with several different .22's...at about 15 feet, using a PACT "Club Timer", and starting with the gun pointed at the target, there is LESS THAN one-tenth of a second difference in my first-shot-after-the-buzzer time between starting with the finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard versus starting with the finger already ON the trigger...
FWIW, the times are closer together..and MORE CONSISTENT..with the K-22's as opposed to the MKII's...don't know why, unless it's that almost thirty-three years of "Yank 'n' Crank" on S&W DA triggers?!?!
IMHO, NONE of the "FOUR RULES" should EVER be violated...but, you pays your money and you takes your chances...just remember, if you shoot yourself in the foot--or, God Forbid, WORSE--I TOLD YOU SO!!!....mikey357

 

[.38 Special]

One of the gang at Sixgunner.com posted some x-rays from a man who managed to shoot himself in the lower leg because he broker Rule 3.

Right. From the link: "His car alarm went off outside at night. He was putting on his pants while holding his revolver....... and he was drunk at the time.... "

Yup. That settles it. It's 'cause he broke rule #3.

 

[Cosmoline]

The way I see it, either way is unsafe, you have your finger on the trigger which can fire the weapon at any time. The other examples I provided are no different than your method: finger on the trigger but rely on some exploitation of the action to not fire the weapon.

They have hair triggers, which cannot be touched prior to firing. The examples with external hammers operate totally differently from the hammer of a DA revolver.

Weapon retention...have you tried drawing like that with a blue gun and having somebody grab the gun? Anybody could snatch the revolver out of your hand easily while holding it like that.

Actually, it would be a lot easier to take when my finger is off the trigger. Try to grab a revolver if the finger is on the trigger and you'll likely get shot.

 

[Soap]

They have hair triggers, which cannot be touched prior to firing. The examples with external hammers operate totally differently from the hammer of a DA revolver.

I'm sorry but a heavier pull is NOT a safety feature.

Actually, it would be a lot easier to take when my finger is off the trigger. Try to grab a revolver if the finger is on the trigger and you'll likely get shot.

So you're telling me you haven't tried any retention situations with it.