Cooper's Third Rule And Revolvers

[Cosmoline]

I've heard several versions of the rumor, but none of them involve Jordan accidentally pulling the trigger of his wheelgun. The story is he intentionally aimed his revolver at a wall and intentionally pulled the trigger on what he thought was an unloaded firearm. So again even if it's true it has bupkus to do with this thread.

 

[John C]

Actually, Cosmoline, I think that the rumor you cite reinforces what VA27 has said, which was basically that you can violate one of Cooper's rules and get away with it most of the time, but you violate two rules and you're probably going to have something bad happen. Violate three rules and some bad WILL happen.

Jordan advocated breaking one of Cooper's rules with a double-action revolver. That works almost all the time. Violate two rules (all guns are loaded, don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy, and perhaps know your target and what lies beyond) and you can get into trouble.

I in no way wish to denigrate Bill Jordan as a shooter, a person, or a law enforcement officer. Anyone can, and will, make mistakes. Forgive and drive on. However, I feel that there's no shame in learning lessons from others' mistakes.

-John

 

[Glamdring]

If your hunting or using a gun for self defense vs shooting on a range you need to use MORE care about gun safety. Because you don't have the artifical safety advantages of a gunrange! You need to be clear on your target and what is behind it.


There are going to be REAL people you don't want to shoot. In the real world there is no "safe" direction to point the weapon, there is no down range or uprange.

You may have multiple opponents. With family members or other innocents inbetween.

If you don't think you can get your first shot off fast enough without using a dangerous technique (ie putting finger on trigger before your ready to shoot) then practice more.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

If your hunting or using a gun for self defense vs shooting on a range you need to use MORE care about gun safety. Because you don't have the artifical safety advantages of a gunrange! You need to be clear on your target and what is behind it.


There are going to be REAL people you don't want to shoot. In the real world there is no "safe" direction to point the weapon, there is no down range or uprange.

You may have multiple opponents. With family members or other innocents inbetween.

If you don't think you can get your first shot off fast enough without using a dangerous technique (ie putting finger on trigger before your ready to shoot) then practice more.

I absolutely agree with that statement if we are not talking about a double action revolver. Been an avid handgun shooter for close to thirty years, all kinds of actions. You have to weigh in risks vs benefits. With anything but a double action revolver in double action mode, the risks associated with having your finger inside the trigger guard short of the instant you need it there are too high in relation to the slight benefit you derive. With DA revolvers, however, there is a huge shift in the risk/benefit ratio. The risk of AD drops dramatically, while the benefit of being able to place a quick shot accurately skyrockets in comparison to the alternative. That quick DA shot is very likely to be necessary in condition orange, and it is ONLY in condition orange that the risk/benefit ratio shifts sufficiently to justify this very narrow exception to rule 3, and that ONLY for DA revolvers.

We really are talking about an entirely different animal with an entirely different risk/benefit ratio regarding finger inside trigger guard. It is not a small difference. It is not a moderate difference. It is a huge difference. Those who did not cut their teeth on DA revolvers are forgiven for not appreciating this fact, however. Being doctrinaire with regard to safety rules seems like the right attitude when one lacks the experience to appreciate subtle and not so subtle distinctions.

 

[.38 Special]

I thought Bill Jordan was known for having accidentally shot and killed one of his partners on the Border Patrol. Seriously.

It's been brought up and shot down before. It just didn't happen. Too bad it's too arcane for Snopes.

 

[.38 Special]

You may have multiple opponents. With family members or other innocents inbetween.

So are you going to shoot bad guy #1, remove your finger from the trigger and carefully lay it on the frame, raise the muzzle of the gun to clear the innocent's head as you sweep over to bad guy #2, lower the muzzle back down into position, place your finger back onto the trigger and fire? Really?

I'm reminded of a discussion I once had with a "Zero Tolerance" school board member. "Follow the rules! No exceptions! It's easier than thinking!"

Well, okay, she didn't actually say the last bit... LMAO.

 

[Imaginos]

Color Code

Condition Orange has been brought up as a time when Rule 3 may be broken. However, in reviewing the definition of Condition Orange, I find nothing in it that indicates that a condition exists that would require a defensive weapon to be presented prior to moving to Condition Red. Once in Condition Red, you are in the final process of the decision to shoot, but the trigger has not yet been pulled. Nothing in the definition of Condition Orange or Red indicates that any of the 4 Rules have been relaxed until you have made the decision a specific target must be shot. After that decision has been made, Rule 3 is suspended.

I have reread Elmer Keith's book "Sixguns" where he discusses quick draw, and he talks about violating Rule 3 during the quick draw, but the first section of that chapter discusses the use of the quick draw as part of a defensive response, so it implies a Condition Red situation exists before the hand ever touches the gun. This same logic would apply to Jordan's discussion and to competitive shooters as well. The buzzer is a Condition Red signal, and they have a clearly defined target, so Rule 3 is suspended until the target is hit. I still see no logic in suspending Rule 3 prior to Condition Red.

Gunsite Color Code c/o http://www.frfrogspad.com/color.htm
White - Relaxed, unaware, and unprepared. If attacked in this state the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy and ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty your reaction will probably be, "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Yellow - Relaxed alertness. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." There is no specific threat but you are aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and your carriage says "I am alert." You don't have to be armed in this state but if you are armed you must be in yellow. When confronted by something nasty your reaction will probably be, "I thought this might happen some day." You can live in this state indefinitely.

Orange - Specific alert. Something not quite right has gotten your attention and you shift your primary focus to that thing. Something is "wrong" with a person or object. Something may happen. Your mindset is that "I may have to shoot that person." Your pistol is usually holstered in this state. You can maintain this state for several hours.

Red - Fight trigger. This is your mental trigger. "If that person does "x" I will shoot them." Your pistol may, but not necessarily, be in your hand.

 

[Bix]

re heavy triggers

Quote:
"Reflexively" pulls an 8 to 12 lb. trigger? That's not a reflex, it's a grand mal seizure!

I didn't say it was likely. But it HAS happened.

Indeed, it can be replicated in a laboratory:

Heim ran 25 participants (13 female and 12 male, average age 25, all armed with the sensor-equipped SIG) through repetitions of 13 vigorous movements common to police work while their index finger was on the trigger.

In about 6 per cent of cases, enough trigger pressure was registered to have fired the pistol had it been uncocked (that is, mechanically set for an initial double-action trigger pull). In about 20 per cent of cases, the pressure was sufficient to have fired the gun had it been cocked (as with secondary rounds). The gun used had a 12-pound double-action trigger pull and a 5-pound pull, single-action.

Source:

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/frontend/parser.cfm?object=Columnists&tmpl=article&id=94371

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Imaginos, as I remembered it, red meant you had decided to shoot, not that you would shoot if somebody did X, which I thought was condition orange. If red is the latter, then looks like I remembered the condition codes wrong. Substitute red in place of orange in my previous posts.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Re: Reflex trigger pulling

This guy might have something interesting to say if we could talk to him.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Notice, however, that that guy was carrying a semi auto when he tripped. I don't say it's impossible to do that with a double action revolver, only that the risk/benefit ratio is slanted in favor of finger on trigger in DA mode when, and only when, combat is likely immanent.

 

[Cosmoline]

In the real world there is no "safe" direction to point the weapon, there is no down range or uprange.

This is a perfect example of how interpreting Cooper's rules as holy writ will get you into trouble. If you follow them to the letter, then you would never be able to pick up a firearm to get it to the range in the first place! It's madness.

to have fired the pistol

The operative word being PISTOL. We're not talking about pistols here. The test involved P226 pistols, and I don't think anyone here has suggested, or would suggest, resting a finger on the trigger of such a firearm. Even if the pistol has a heavy DA trigger pull, the ergonomics are totally different. You don't mess with the hammer at all. The P226 barely has one. And you sure as heck don't rest your thumb on it!!

Moreover, we're not talking about walking around doing chores with your finger on the trigger.

This guy might have something interesting to say if we could talk to him

AGAIN, HE HAS A PISTOL! Nobody is suggesting you can ever touch the trigger of a pistol prior to getting it on target.

 

[Cousin Mike]

No real interest in the debate here, as both sides have made good points. I just thought it was kind of funny. Made me think though, since a lot of semi-autos are DA/SA with a heavy first pull, so it's obviously possible.. And maybe not as unlikely as one might think.

 

[SniperStraz]

---

Yes it's an important rule, but as a responsible firearm owner you need to be able to make a judgement call as to if it is safe or not based on the action of your personal unique weapon. After all, Cooper isn't shooting the gun, you are, and if the SHTF you spend your life in prison not Cooper.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

It's obviously possible.. And maybe not as unlikely as one might think.

Again, their is a risk associated with just about every activity we engage in. Driving a car is risky, to a degree, but the benefits outweigh the risks. The life saving value of finger on trigger when, and only when, combat is immanent outweighs the very slight risk of accidentally shooting someone with a double action revolver while in double action mode. I'm about as likely to accidentally run someone over with my car as I am to accidentally shoot someone with a double action revolver in double action mode, especially when rules 1,2 and 4 are observed.

 

[Gordon]

"Red - Fight trigger. This is your mental trigger. "If that person does "x" I will shoot them." Your pistol may, but not necessarily, be in your hand. "

This is indeed Col. Coopers rule

The gun is not a Samurai Sword where the draw stroke is the cutting stroke.I mean by this "fast draw" western style games are just that-games.

Col. Cooper lectured a small group I was in this last April on the color codes as they apply to mental/moral state of actually conciously taking a life. He said in this society that is becoming a "nation of cowards" few are really prepared to take deadly action ONCE THEY HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE REALITY OF DOING IT. Of course a coward is readily capable of killing if his mindset is based on fantasy.
I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses? I don't remember any I have been to where a finger was allowed in a trigger guard until the gun is presented toward the danger.I will continue to keep ,even on the myriad of DA and SA wheel guns I shoot, my finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot (condition Red) and not feel handicapped in the least. BTW all real High speed low drag operators (the real thing) I have trained with in the last 25 years also keep thir fingers out of trigger guard unless condition red. I had a NYPD detective uncle who in the 40s and 50s kept his finger in the trigger guard, and I was trained by Chic Gaylord to do so at a very young age in the late 50s early 60s, but Thank the Holy Kahki (and Col. Cooper) I was born again into the 'Modern Technique' for almost 40 years of safe gun handling since then!

 

[Cousin Mike]

HE HAS A PISTOL! Nobody is suggesting you can ever touch the trigger of a pistol prior to getting it on target.

Trigger pull on a DA/SA revolver is usually between 8 and 12 pounds. Same for a DA/SA semi auto. Both are double action pulls... What's the huge difference that makes it so impossible to unintentionally fire a DA revolver, yet so easy to discharge a DA semi-auto? If you slip and fall, are you 100% sure that your thumb is going to stay perfectly in place behind the hammer?

I'm about as likely to accidentally run someone over with my car...

That happens too.. and again, it's not exactly an incredibly rare thing, but that's slightly OT.

 

[Cosmoline]

The key is, if you do fall, don't squeeze the trigger. Let's look at the finding again:

In about 6 per cent of cases, enough trigger pressure was registered to have fired the pistol had it been uncocked

This tells me in the vast majority of cases, people were able to avoid putting that much pressure on the trigger. There are also more serious tactical considerations. Let me try to explain some ergonomics to you pistoleros:



The classic 1911 has a balance point considerably futher back than the double action revolver. The ammunition is in the handle, and the index finger is easily kept along the side under the slide.

The revolver, in contrast, has its ammunition and balance point an inch or more further out than the 1911. The front end wants to drop down if the index finger is kept alongside, and as the other fingers try to compensate by squeezing harder, the index finger also curves, and the whole frame is canted to the left. If presented this way in a hurry at the target, the shooter must re-grip as he tries to get his finger into the groove. If you're in imminent peril, you can kiss your hind end goodbye.

In my experience, you are much better off getting your finger in the right place at the beginning of the presentation, NOT at the end of it. You avoid an ND by not being negligent and waiting until you're on target to fire.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses?

I was instructed, back in 1979/1980, by a retired deputy sheriff who was an NRA certified defensive handgun instructor. I had approximately 20 hours of instruction both on and off the firing line. I started this a few months before getting my license to possess and carry a handgun at age 19, and continued it for a couple on months thereafter. He taught me the technique of double action revolver defensive shooting that he learned as a deputy sheriff. He had no obsessions about one's trigger finger being off the trigger of an uncocked double action revolver once drawn for fighting purposes. In fact he impressed upon me the relative safety of the design in this regard. His methods were good enough for his entire career as a lawman, so I guess they're good enough for me.

 

[Gordon]

"I was instructed, back in 1979/1980, by a retired deputy sheriff who was an NRA certified defensive handgun instructor. I had approximately 20 hours of instruction both on and off the firing line. I started this a few months before getting my license to possess and carry a handgun at age 19, and continued it for a couple on months thereafter."

Thanks, that clears up alot of things!

 

[Glamdring]

Gordon said:

I wonder how many in this discussion have gone thru professional gun handling courses? I don't remember any I have been to where a finger was allowed in a trigger guard until the gun is presented toward the danger.I will continue to keep ,even on the myriad of DA and SA wheel guns I shoot, my finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot (condition Red) and not feel handicapped in the least. BTW all real High speed low drag operators (the real thing) I have trained with in the last 25 years also keep thir fingers out of trigger guard unless condition red. I had a NYPD detective uncle who in the 40s and 50s kept his finger in the trigger guard, and I was trained by Chic Gaylord to do so at a very young age in the late 50s early 60s, but Thank the Holy Kahki (and Col. Cooper) I was born again into the 'Modern Technique' for almost 40 years of safe gun handling since then!

Amen Brother. Wonder how many here know how much effort the NYPD stakeout squad put into not shooting innocent people? And how despite all the gunfights they were in they never did hit an innocent.


****
If speed is the most important thing then cutting corners on safety makes sense. If your shooting at anything but paper, then speed isn't the most important thing IMO.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Thanks, that clears up alot of things!

One wonders how you mean this, exactly. Based on your previous post, I must assume it was meant as a slight, despite the smiley. Why do you presume that current instruction methods in the defensive use of double action revolvers are necessarily better than those developed in the late heyday of double action revolvers as duty weapons for lawmen? If anything, the reverse of that presumption is more likely true.

 

[GRIZ22]

I have been a firearms instructor since 1976. As a result I have had a least 1000 hours of professional handgun, rifle, shotgun, and subgun training between LE and the military.

I don't think anyone here or Col Cooper is advocating align sights and then put your finger on the trigger. It's putting your finger on the trigger when you are ready to fire. In addition to the cases I mentioned previously I had a friend shot by someone who had his finger on the trigger while trying to put a car into park. That was with a DA auto uncocked with a 13.5 lb trigger (it was checked after the incident).

If you are under no degree of stress you can keep your finger on the trigger all day long and the gun won't discharge I'll agree. Covering a BG, running to or from a shooting incident, or chasing someone who just took a shot at you and you (as a LEO) are supposed to be trying to catch are totally different things. Putting your finger on the trigger during a draw is asking for trobule. A LE range I know of has a collection of holsters with bullet holes through them on the wall.

Trying to do anything running, climbing, walking, or just standing with your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to fire is unsafe.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

So, Griz, you're a cop who is carefully entering an abandoned building you just saw an armed mugger run in to. You have a double action revolver. Is your finger lightly touching the trigger face as you carefully enter and begin to turn wide corners, or is your finger pointing straight out until the bad guy actually steps out from behind a corner, gun pointing in your direction? Be honest now.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Hawkeye,

Allow me to ask you a question . . . . Two armed men have made the decision, for whatever reasons, to exchange rounds at each other. Guns are coming to bear, or are already at bear on one another, but the actual shots have not yet been touched off. But they are about to . . . in units of time measured in tenths of seconds. Which act is more likely to give one of them a chance of winning that fight? Shooting or moving?