Cop and CCW Shooter Indicted

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Maybe I missed a line of the story, reading all this I still don't get why Treptow didn't just drive away.

Once I started carrying I became so much more circumspect in my behavior that things I used to let bother me I just let go now.

One moment of unthinking will cost a lot of money and maybe ruin his life. This is regardless of how the cop was behaving.

If Treptow could have driven away but chose to engage I don't see why I should be sympathetic. The only way i could see it is if Treptow thought that this other fellow was just going to start shooting into Treptow's vehicle. Even then driving away is probably a better option than getting into a gunfight in his wife's lap.

Plus if he is hit and killed or wounded such that he cannot drive away then his family is stuck there at the mercy of this "gunman".

So he is hoist on his own petard.
 
"That he brandished a weapon in compliment to the verbal threat means that taking the threats at face value is reasonable."


lance other thsan treptow or his wife who can say whether the undercover brandished? the witness never claimed to see a gun hust said he was waving something
 
The officer is being held to the same standard everyone else is. Even if he is acquitted, which I doubt, he will probably be fired. However if he was totally at fault, why was the civilian charged? I think (based on the very limited information available) that it's a clear cut case of mutual combat. Both parties are at fault, and both parties are charged. And I have no doubt, that both parties believe they were acting properly.

Both parties may well be at fault. However, it seems difficult to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. The cop should probably be fired, because you don't need to establish the facts "beyond a reasonable doubt" to fire someone.

I do take exception to your inference that amounts to "the civilian would not have been charged if he wasn't guilty." This assertion is obviously flawed, and taken to its logical conclusion removes the need for jury trials.

It is common to charge both parties in a dispute and let the juries decide. It is even more common to charge the citizen in any dispute with an LEO. Most prosecutors need to maintain a good relationship with the local department, and they do not want the bad blood generated by failing to charge a citizen who dares dispute with an LEO. It is much better for prosecutor-LEO relations to charge innocent citizens and say "the stupid jury let him off easy" than it is to bear LEO scrutiny for failing to charge citizens who dispute with LEOs.

In any case, drawing inferences simply from the mere fact someone was charged does violence to the presumption of innocence, separation of powers, and the right to trial by jury.

Michael Courtney
 
He had no facts on which to base his theory that there were over a million defensive uses of firearms a year. He took statements from criminals that couldn't be verified and simply extrapolated them to come up with those numbers. There aren't enough corpses of dead criminals that the circumstances of their deaths are unknown to back up those numbers. There aren't enough people showing up in the ER with gunshot wounds to back up his numbers.

Jeff, wouldn't it be fair to say that if you merely need to unholster your weapon, which causes the attack to stop, and the bad guy run away count as a defensive use? If so, 1 million may not be a bad estimate. You don't need a body, and the NRA FF mags always have plenty of stories that end after the mere presence of a gun is shown.
 
sort of makes an argument for cops to not carry off duty, and for some people not to be cops at all.
scary thing is this "cop" can carry where I cant.
schools, airports....etc etc..
 
Michael Courtney said;
I do take exception to your inference that amounts to "the civilian would not have been charged if he wasn't guilty." This assertion is obviously flawed, and taken to its logical conclusion removes the need for jury trials.

I really don't care if you take exception to it or not. It's the truth. Contrary to what is posted on internet gun forums, it's very rare that someone is charged because the police and prosecutors don't like his looks, the fact he owns firearms or any one of another dozen reasons members like to post. People are only charged when the prosecutor thinks he/she has enough evidence to convict that person. How many years experience do you have working in the criminal justice system at any level that leads you to believe otherwise?

It is common to charge both parties in a dispute and let the juries decide.

And how many years of personal experience as a police officer or prosecuting attorney do you have to back up this assertion? In my experience, it's done, but it's not the norm. Often a lot of work goes into trying to figure out what really happened and who to charge. Most often both parties are charged in a mutual combat situation, like the one under discussion appears to be, because there is enough blame to go around. Based on the information available in this thread, it appears that both parties share responsibility for this incident.

It is even more common to charge the citizen in any dispute with an LEO.

You might take notice of the fact that the Grand Jury indicted both parties. Not the prosecutor.

Most prosecutors need to maintain a good relationship with the local department, and they do not want the bad blood generated by failing to charge a citizen who dares dispute with an LEO. It is much better for prosecutor-LEO relations to charge innocent citizens and say "the stupid jury let him off easy" than it is to bear LEO scrutiny for failing to charge citizens who dispute with LEOs.

Really? Do you have some proof of this? If so, let's see it. Around here the appointment of a special prosecutor to deal with incidents like the one under discussion here is quite common. They simply bring in a prosecutor from another county who has no connection to anyone involved in the case and he/she handles it. Of course that's in the real world, not some internet fantasyland.

In any case, drawing inferences simply from the mere fact someone was charged does violence to the presumption of innocence, separation of powers, and the right to trial by jury.

Just like drawing inferences that the prosecutions always sides with the police, to the extent that they prosecute someone who the know is innocent so the jury can take the blame for the acquittal and protect the relationship between the prosecutor and the police.......:uhoh:

Somekid said;
Jeff, wouldn't it be fair to say that if you merely need to unholster your weapon, which causes the attack to stop, and the bad guy run away count as a defensive use?

Yes

If so, 1 million may not be a bad estimate. You don't need a body, and the NRA FF mags always have plenty of stories that end after the mere presence of a gun is shown.

I don't read a million cases in the Armed Citizen column in the course of 12 months. The stories in the Armed Citizen are verified. Kleck's work is not. Break it down this way. How many CCW permits are there nation wide? I don't know currently, but I bet it's not over 2 million, if it's even that many. Out of those permits that exists, how many people actually carry their weapon? If you believe some of the studies that have been done, not that many. So Kleck is asking us to believe that a very small number of legally carried firearms are used defensively more the a million times a year. And he based this on, not facts, not anything he could verify, but statements by criminals about how they avoided someone they thought was armed, or ran away when their target displayed a gun. Now let me ask you this. Do you think a crack dealer defending his stash is a legitimate defensive use of a firearm? This is important because most violent crime involves people living a criminal lifestyle, preying on other people who live a criminal lifestyle. If you are willing to count uses of firearms to defend this weeks crack production or the cash that goes with it, then you might get to a million defensive uses a year. But it's pretty disingenuous to include those statistics into work that tries to convince people that they need a firearm. We live in one of the safest societies in the world. If you don't live a criminal lifestyle, have relatives who live a criminal lifestyle, hang out with people who live a criminal lifestyle, go to the same places they hang out, or let them into your home, your chances of being a victim of a violent crime are pretty insignificant. That's why I don't buy into the 1 + million defensive uses a year, not 1 million + uses by citizens not involved in a criminal lifestyle. The numbers just don't add up.

dhoomonyou said;
sort of makes an argument for cops to not carry off duty, and for some people not to be cops at all.
scary thing is this "cop" can carry where I cant.
schools, airports....etc etc..

Sort of makes the argument that shall issue CCW is a bad idea. Hotheads will get in gunfights over traffic disputes. Where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, the Brady Center....Treptow sure did a good job of proving Sarah right. :rolleyes:

Jeff
 
Out of those permits that exists, how many people actually carry their weapon? If you believe some of the studies that have been done, not that many. So Kleck is asking us to believe that a very small number of legally carried firearms are used defensively more the a million times a year.

That number probably will not be over 1 mil. I am including home defense in the number, not only counting legally carried firearms. If home defense instances were counted, do you think 1 million is still such a high number?

Do you think a crack dealer defending his stash is a legitimate defensive use of a firearm?

Crack dealer, cop, or CEO. If someone breaks into your home, don't you have the right to defend yourself?

We live in one of the safest societies in the world. If you don't live a criminal lifestyle, have relatives who live a criminal lifestyle, hang out with people who live a criminal lifestyle, go to the same places they hang out, or let them into your home, your chances of being a victim of a violent crime are pretty insignificant.

True, true, and true. However, insignificant does not equal safe. Maybe it is the fact I live somewhat near Knoxville, or maybe the fact that I am in the age range, but the rape/torture/murder of those two college students by a gang of blacks is a good reminder that you aren't ever really safe.
 
local department

Most prosecutors need to maintain a good relationship with the local department, and they do not want the bad blood generated by failing to charge a citizen who dares dispute with an LEO. It is much better for prosecutor-LEO relations to charge innocent citizens and say "the stupid jury let him off easy" than it is to bear LEO scrutiny for failing to charge citizens who dispute with LEOs.

This factor is less likely in the Treptow/Beard case - Beard is a Robbinsdale officer. Robbinsdale is a suburb of Minneapolis and in Hennepin County. Coon Rapids, where the incident happened, is in Anoka County. Anoka County prosecutors probably have minimal direct dealings with Robbinsdale PD.

Actually, while it is typically best for the prosecution and law enforcement to get along, it is not always the case. In fact, it may be more often not the case. In my experience (well over 20 years in the system, both practicing and teaching) I don't think a prosecutor is likely to let serious misconduct by an officer slide - in fact, in the few cases I have seen, they are extremely diligent about it.

There are a lot of accusations of "politics" flying around this case locally, and it will be interesting to see how the evidence comes in at trial - remember, the only people who really have heard the case are the prosecutor and the grand jury - the rest is speculation.


Ideally, a good prosecutor charges a case because he/she feels they have sufficient evidence to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. There can be factors that influence the process - for example, young prosecutors frequently don't have a good handle on this process, nor I suppose would you expect them to - there is no substitute for experience. Young prosecutors are usually not making charging decisions in serious cases, however.



Publicity or political concerns can sway prosecutors, as well - in the face of pressure from a victim's family, for example, in a deadly force/self defense case, it may seem a better decision to charge the case and let the jury decide. Actually, in a self defense case you could argue that is a good decision. It can, at some level, be very hard to fully evaluate the case short of hearing the evidence in court.

Sometimes, a prosecutor has to charge a case, that may be tough to prove. An example - some years ago I did a criminal sexual conduct charge involving a young victim, a consistent and credible report to human services and law enforcement, two experts, both nationally known psychologists in the area of child sexual abuse - who disagreed on the credibility, and subsequently discovered collateral evidence of motive to fabricate and fabrication. I tried the case against one of the best and most ethical prosecutors I have ever worked with, in front of a judge who was a former prosecutor who had specialized in criminal sexual assault cases. We all agreed that it was a tough case for the state to prove, but that it needed to be charged.

So, while a good general rule may be that the prosecutor should feel they have proof beyond a reasonable doubt in charging, it still remains that the standard is probable cause, and they may be good reason for exception to the general rule.
 
How many CCW permits are there nation wide? I don't know currently, but I bet it's not over 2 million, if it's even that many. Out of those permits that exists, how many people actually carry their weapon? If you believe some of the studies that have been done, not that many. So Kleck is asking us to believe that a very small number of legally carried firearms are used defensively more the a million times a year.

I'm not even going to begin to try to argue how many defensive gun uses occur annually, but you don't need to limit them to CCW permit holders. An incident might be home or property defense, defense from/near a vehicle in one of many states where it is legal to have a loaded gun in your car without a permit, open carry, or even concealed carry in areas where a permit is not required.

Just a couple weeks ago, I met somebody outside my house who was banging on my door well after dark. I had a rifle in my hand and a sidearm out of sight. No crime was committed, but I don't believe these folks were totally "trouble-free" either (based on who they were looking for). It's entirely possible that some trouble was averted (either now or later) by my being obviously armed. So in a sense, that might qualify as a "defensive gun use". Certainly it will never make its way into any statistics.
 
It is always prudent to withhold judgment and allow the system to work. With time, the truths of the case will become "evident" as in "evidence". There after , the truths shall be known.
 
It looks to me like both of them better hope that the conflicting testimony is enough to stump a jury. Based on that article, I have no idea who to believe. However, the fact that the cop has no complaints on his record is going to be a problem for the citizen. If I were the citizen's lawyer, I would subpoena his file and PRAY for a thick stack of complaints.
 
I really don't care if you take exception to it or not. It's the truth. Contrary to what is posted on internet gun forums, it's very rare that someone is charged because the police and prosecutors don't like his looks, the fact he owns firearms or any one of another dozen reasons members like to post.

Justified or not, if you shoot a cop, you're gonna be charged or indicted.

If you think I am wrong, then prove me wrong by citing 10 cases where an armed citizen shot an LEO and was no-billed by the grand jury.

Can you even cite five?

Prosecutors work very hard to get indictments for armed citizens who shoot cops. Can you cite any cases where an armed citizen shot a cop and the prosecutor did not seek an indictment? I didn't think so.

Michael Courtney
 
Beard just sounds like an officer with an overblown sense of entitlement(umm.. OK.. you could've PMed me and we could've discussed this edit like adults. I would PM you, but I have no idea who you are.) that took things too far.

Granted, Treptow should've ran, but maybe he didn't want his kids catching bullets in the back as he sped away.
 
re the "Treptows should have left" conlusion....

If I understand the whole scenario properly, they did just that.

1. At the initial exchange, Beard was turning--but after getting mouthed at, he followed them.

2. After the second exchange, he apparently followed them again. It's not clear to me right now who initiated the second "pulloever," to engage in the verbal stuff again.

3. At the site of the shooting, Beard is alongside, exiting his car on the right side of the Treptow SUV--and treptow has his wife in the passenger seat, and his two kids in the back. The wife shouts "he has a gun"--and Treptow reacts to defend them.

I don't see how Treptow had a viable option to drive away at that point--his children could be hit as the family departs the scene. Further, the witness statements about Beard saying (words to the effect of) "I don't care about jail; I'm going to kill you." suggest the confrontation has escalated to a lethal force / defense issue.

I will be waiting to read the transcript, to see just what words said in the verbal exchanges kept these two guys going, though....

Jim H.
 
Isn't driving away, if it is possible, the best option regardless of the behavior of the other person?

The best place to be during a gunfight is 'not there' so punch the gas and make the bad guy fire at a moving target, at an angle, that also gives you cover. Odds are he is going to miss flesh. His odds of hitting are better if you are still, and even greater if two people are sharing one space as is the case in this incident.

If you are jammed in by other cars then you do what you can. Depending on where the other guy is I might drive over him rather than pull my gun. And depending on just what the the boxing in looks like I might just get out of there even if I have to damage other cars to do so.

And I would love to know if Treptow was boxed in. If he was I will rescind my comments.
 
I have always thought the several million plus annual defensive uses of firearms was high, but I also know that in a period of about 10 months back in the early 80s when I lived in Chicago, I ran across three people whose hide was saved because they had a gun handy, no shots fired, no police called, and another case where a nurse saved herself from being raped in a hospital parking lot by shooting the perp (illegally of course). Cops had to be called because of the serious wounded thug, but the nurse was not charged.

I also know that the building I lived in was bought by a member of the Latin Kings gang. In the couple of months it took me to move out, a substantial number of robberies and break-ins occurred. Every floor but one had problems. The one floor that had no problems was coincidentally the floor I lived on. I am pretty sure that the fact that I was an armed security guard, one neighbor was an armed house detective for a downtown hotel, and my other neighbor was the former house detective for the apartment building (his daughter was the nurse referred to above) had something to do with the fact that they left us alone. In fact, one of the gang members as much as told me that when I moved out.
 
Dang, Jeff, what's so bad about mutual combat? (Just kiddin'!)

Really, though, I mind Sam Clemens writing about Southern culture, and that murder was not considered to be as serious a crime as oh, say, trespassing.

Hey, I'm from Georgia, and borderline autistic to boot, so I am mildly amused by that episode.

(That's assuming that the rights and wrongs are submerged into the "mutual combat" thing. Now, if they'd risked the lives of bystanders, that would be different.)
.
 
"...Isn't driving away, if it is possible, the best option regardless of the behavior of the other person?

I don't see how at this point. To me, this way of thinking goes along with "one never needs a gun to protect themselves; we can always leave the scene." It's also a close kin to the "just lay back and enjoy it" advice to women when attacked by a rapist.

AFAICT, Treptow has every reason to believe they are about to be fired upon.

Do you really consider putting your children directly into the line of fire a viable option? Or is this mental masturbation along the lines of Monday-morning quarterbacking?

Jim H.
 
Jeff White said:
Beard's status a police officer has no more impact on this case then if he was a cab driver or a plumber on his way to another job. I suggest you look up Estate of Boliek v. Anne Arundel County, 2005 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 11182 (Dist. Md. 2005). That case will give you a better understanding of what constitutes acting under color of law.

Beard's status as a police officer has EVERYTHING, repeat EVERYTHING to do with this.

First off, he's a cop twenty-four hours a day and expected to conduct himself as such. If he can't handle that, then he should've turned in his badge.

Second, the minute he identified himself as a cop, everything changed. Problem was, he'd already shot off his mouth something fierce and PROVOKED the situation (something the FBI civil rights and OPR folks tend to dislike). Only way he could even begin to salvage this was to ID himself as a cop. But it was too late by then.

I really don't care if you take exception to it or not. It's the truth. Contrary to what is posted on internet gun forums, it's very rare that someone is charged because the police and prosecutors don't like his looks, the fact he owns firearms or any one of another dozen reasons members like to post. People are only charged when the prosecutor thinks he/she has enough evidence to convict that person. How many years experience do you have working in the criminal justice system at any level that leads you to believe otherwise?

Sigh.

Let's start with over a dozen years as a federal narcotics agent. And sorry, but it's not rare, it's COMMONPLACE.

We arrested suspected drug dealers all the time and held them until we could think of other things to charge them with. Sometimes we'd even go over the surveillance/arrest video to see if the guy had done something we missed so we could throw that charge on as well.

This happens for a variety of reason. One is the the typical wimpass AUSA will plead out or trade off damn near everything you arrest the mutt for. Exception being if A) a political figure is applying pressure one way or the other regarding the case, B) the AUSA has political aspirations and this case--and trying it--could be a boost, and C) if the local/national media has gotten a whiff of it--then the AUSA is either terrified if it's a shaky case, or if it has potential, he walks around with a five foot Viagra boost he's so happy.

Other times, you'll arrest someone just to get them off the street for up to 72 hours. Lots of reasons for doing that as well. You may have a CI that's about to get burned or smoked. You may have new intel that will help you sweat the dealer if you snatch him and put him in an isolation cell for three days. Etc etc.


It is common to charge both parties in a dispute and let the juries decide.
And how many years of personal experience as a police officer or prosecuting attorney do you have to back up this assertion? In my experience, it's done, but it's not the norm. Often a lot of work goes into trying to figure out what really happened and who to charge. Most often both parties are charged in a mutual combat situation, like the one under discussion appears to be, because there is enough blame to go around. Based on the information available in this thread, it appears that both parties share responsibility for this incident.

In incidents involving law enforcement, it's done almost 100% of the time. Except that rather than the grand jury, the cop's "side of the story" gets looked at by IAD/OPR.

If the cop is wrong--even in the slightest--it is normally handled in-house and kept in the family. But there is a difference between department/agency policy violations and criminal violations. If the cop/agent is believed to have committed a criminal violation, then that is turned over to the grand jury and it is the IAD/OPR people who testify against the officer/agent, along with any other witnesses.

I've arrested a number of local, county and state cops before and testified against them to both the grand jury and sitting juries. And believe me, our society DOES hold cops to a higher standard, as they should.

Cops are expectd to control situations--not create them. Bottom line, Beard created a situation, then not only failed to control it but escalated it to the point to where deadly force came into play.

Were I an investigating agent, I'd have his nuts in a vice grip.

This is a PERFECT example of why average Americans lose more faith and trust in law enforcement with each passing year. And it's not fair to the good cops, which is why I'll be damned if I defend the bad ones.

Jeff
 
You might take notice of the fact that the Grand Jury indicted both parties. Not the prosecutor.

Jeff,

You and others have referred to this a couple of times already but I don't see (and maybe I'm just missing it) where the civilian was charged by the grand jury. The story seems to indicate the police officer was but really doesn't say that the civilian was. That would be a bit of a twist if the charges against the civilian were originally by the arresting officers and then picked up by the DA or procescutor instead of grand jury.
 
At least one poster here (now inactive, I think) used his legally-carried gun to fend off a car-jacking and IIRC no written report of the incident was ever completed by Mpls. Police.

I am not inactive. The police wrote it up, but, as they never caught the guy who tried to take my truck, the case is still considered "open" and not public. I have the case number etc.. from the police.
 
Beard's status a police officer has no more impact on this case then if he was a cab driver or a plumber on his way to another job.

That is like saying that my being an ICU and ER nurse would have no impact upon my behavior at a car accident scene.

Legally, it may or may not.....but, as someone who was the house circulating critical care nurse for a 700 bed hospital for several years (about 270 Dr Blue responses in that time), I damn well should act in a more professional manner than someone who took BLS once a few years ago.
 
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