Crazy neighbor and what to do.

[altitude_19]

I'll try to make this short. I'm in a dispute with a neighbor (2 houses down) over a dog fight. Our animals got into it, his was more seriously injured than mine, and we're trying to work out exactly how much I should pay in the way of restitution. The man is an absolute emotional time-bomb. We have never spoken for more than 10 minutes without him shouting, cursing, and generally acting like a child. The first time he approached me, I had to concoct a ruse to go back into my house and call the police to mediate. The second time (a few days ago) he only lasted about 5 minutes before he got so mad he stormed back to his house. His wife was with him this time and stayed to talk and I like to think we actually made headway towards finally settling this. I'm hoping to deal with her exclusively from now on, due to her clearly being the cooler head in the marriage.
1.) TACTICS CHECK: I don't think the husband is in any state of mind to participate in any kind of a productive discussion. If he comes back, I intend to assertively instruct him to step off the porch and around the railing (physical barrier) before going outside myself. I intend to have a handgun (concealed) and pepperspray on my person. I will tell him I don't feel comfortable speaking with him and can't afford trouble, and he is prohibited from coming to my door again. I haven't told him I was armed during our other exchanges and I intend to keep it under wraps.
2.) The knowledge battle: I've already tried to find out what I can about this couple. I know who owns the house (she does for some wacky reason I can't figure out), when they were married, and that his daughter from a previous marriage visits often because she requires treatment at the local hospital for a chronic condition resulting from heavy drinking/drug use. Do you think a background check is in order on Mr. Temper-tantrum? How does one go about accomplishing such a check? I would be interested in any prior convictions and may even want to run a check on his son to see if he constitutes a likely threat. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Claude Clay]

more info re the dogs would be appreciated ( leashes, either? fixed 6' or adjustable? location--on or closer to whose property?) but i think your real concern is that he may be a danger to others--yourself specifically.

much as i do not like having police involved, this is a time you need to let them know your point of view and concerns as sooner or later he will be calling. and its better if the police have a statement from you to reference his words against.
a court order of some kind may be useful .
id rather him not be on my porch at all if i feel i must meet him armed.

good luck

 

[Fred Fuller]

Consult a local attorney ASAP to explore your legal options (like restraining orders) and follow that advice.

Do not seek further face to face interaction with this person.

Be careful about what you post on the internet regarding your plans and intent in dealing with him.

 

[Shadow 7D]

If animal control wasn't involved he may be getting mad at you because he thinks he's doing you a favor by not having (both maybe, the aggressor certainly) the animal labeled 'aggressive' or what ever the local municipality calls it.

Mine, the license is more expensive, only available for one year at a time and has other restrictions etc.

I'd also follow Lee's advice, realize that something stupid like this can turn into years of trouble. Researching (snooping) isn't going to make you a friend, esp. when the word gets back to them.

 

[mbt2001]

Unless you are hard up, you should pay for the dog to get treated. In the long run, even $500 dollars in vet bills is cheap compared to the trouble the guy could cause. Having him sign a statement that the $500 is for full and final settlement in re the dog injuries, issues, and so on. BTW, I just pulled the number out of the sky, if it is over $1,000 then seriously think about getting a lawyer.

I don't like giving away money either, but if the guy is a loon it will cost you more in the long run. This isn't a real conflict, it is a negotiation and should be treated as such. Your dogs did fight, injuries resulted and the bills are in dispute. There is no reason to introduce a gun into the discussion at all. Getting physical is the best way to lose more than you ever would have normally.

Good luck.

+1 on Lee's advice... Lawyers can act as mediators for certain issues, but I honestly think that the guy just wants money, the best thing to do is give him the money. You are responsible for your property, your dog did hurt the other, he did do you a favor by not involving the authorities and now it is time to pay the piper... A cheap out if you ask me.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Where did the dog fight happen?

If your dog went to his house and engaged the other dog, then you should pay up the full amount.

If the dogs were on neutral ground someplace, then it's just too bad his dog got the worst of it. You're both at fault. Confine your dog in the future and get a restraining order against him. You don't owe him anything.

I don't see the point of a lawyer. He'll just make the situation more expensive.

 

[JColdIron]

but I honestly think that the guy just wants money, the best thing to do is give him the money. You are responsible for your property, your dog did hurt the other, he did do you a favor by not involving the authorities and now it is time to pay the piper... A cheap out if you ask me.

I don't think we have enough info on the original dog altercation to judge who is responsible. There are senarios that he may not be. Giving money to this guy without consideration of that may enbolden him.

 

[JustinJ]

It's been my experience that people who frequently throw tantrems are rarely really dangerous. They just like to test others and see what they can get away with. Personally if i were at fault, as in my dog came onto his property or mine was off leash on public property but his wasn't or mine just straight up attacked his at a dog park, then i would at least feel obligated to pay the entire vet bill. Its my understanding that one can not sue for emotional distress caused by injury or death to a pet but loss of time in caring for the vet could certainly be argued. If he won't accept that then get an attorney and wait to hear from his and continue no further contact.

 

[Shadow 7D]

justin, no
BUT
if his neighbor animal was a show animal, it would then go under "Livestock" regulations and well, those are pretty punitive, wanna guess how much a chicken cost,
Ok, now pay for the lost of 8 generations, kinda pricey

 

[The Sarge]

Offer him arbitration. Choose a preacher, priest or somebody you both can agree is unbiased and would be fair.

 

[JustinJ]

justin, no
BUT
if his neighbor animal was a show animal, it would then go under "Livestock" regulations and well, those are pretty punitive, wanna guess how much a chicken cost,
Ok, now pay for the lost of 8 generations, kinda pricey

Huh? No, what? Legally speaking, a pet is property that one can only sue for the market value of or loss of generated income. In fact, one may only be able to sue for veterinary care up to the market value of said pet but i believe failure to pay for the entire bill would be unethical if one is at fault. There may be exceptions in some states but that is generally the case.

 

[glock36]

When my wife and I ran nation wide pet transportation service , roughly 8 years ago. We had a million dollar insurance coverage , but at that time according to the USDA the actuall cost to replace or compensate a individual for a death of a pet was a flat $ 10.00. Things may have changed but I don't think so.

 

[lyrikz]

Lee, why does everyone say this.
"Be careful about what you post on the internet regarding your plans and intent in dealing with him. "

I can understand if he states he plans on shooting the guy. BUt just asking questions? I have heard this alot today but no one has cleared up why its a bad idea. Thank you.

 

[Fred Fuller]

There are threads known as "stickies" because they are electronically 'stuck' at the top of different forums.

They're intended to draw more attention that way.

One of the ST&T 'stickies' is http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=604948 . Click on the link and that should answer the question.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Huh? No, what? Legally speaking, a pet is property that one can only sue for the market value of or loss of generated income. In fact, one may only be able to sue for veterinary care up to the market value of said pet but i believe failure to pay for the entire bill would be unethical if one is at fault. There may be exceptions in some states but that is generally the case.

Yes, a pet is an animal, but livestock aren't just property but business property that can increase in value and produce value in the further generations, and as such a farmer or rancher can collect for that future value under Ag. law, NOT some muni law.

If the dog is a show dog, same rules apply, I've had a friend who had a 'problem' neighbor who let their dog run cause they lived in the 'rural' area (still in town)

She used that law to get the guy to see reason (after he was fined repeatedly and the dog declared dangerous) cause the damage wasn't actually that much, it however disqualified it from future competition and a letter from a judge at the local club stated that the it would have earned it's grand-champtionship, making future offspring worth more.

That value, pushed forward through the generations, adds up to a tidy sum, more that some fines from the city.

Just like if you shoot a cow, you deprive the farmer not just the value of the cow, but of all the offspring that cow could have had, as a business asset.

 

[mljdeckard]

You know how much a lawyer costs? More than a little, and less than too much.

I think you have done some key things correctly, you have been the one to call the police and get it on record, and you haven't told anyone you are armed. Based on what I see, I think you have done what you reasonably can do. If it goes further, call a lawyer.

 

[DCR]

More details about the incident - particularly the "how it started," "where it happened" and "what was his dog treated for and how much was it" - are needed to understand and advise based on our personal experiences.

Check into your homeowners/renters insurance policy to see if it may be covered - if the bill's less than your deductible, you'll probably be better off just paying it. If it's close, you may want to consider paying it rather than turning his claim over to insurance (assuming it is covered under your policy) so your premiums don't go up.

He can always sue you in small claims (if it's under the limit in your state) and let the judge sort it out.

Interesting argument that you shouldn't have to pay more than the dog's market value - never heard it before in the context of vet bills. Kind of like "totalling out" the dog! Don't know how that would fly,

 

[altitude_19]

There's an awful lot of questions about civil liability here...I'll go ahead and answer what I can on good faith that SOMEHOW it pertains to "personal safety" issue, but please try to remain focused on the defensive issue.

The fight happened in the alley behind my house. All the details are second hand for me because I was actually in the hospital when it happened and my wife was home alone, but didn't actually see it either. The neighbor's wife is the dog owner and routinely leaves the animal unleashed outside. Her excuse is that he is so small he can't do any harm (it still violates state law). The dog ran down the alley and apparently antagonized my dog into jumping the fence (something she has never done, and I didn't even think she could do) and giving the fight it was after. The fight was over fast with each dog delivering a bite to the other. Her vet bills are about $750. That is well below my deductible and I won't be making a claim.

I find it distressing that so many have said "just pay the man." Last I checked, handing money over to a presumably volatile and dangerous person for the sake of safety was called a mugging. I'm not comfortable doing such a thing as it would embolden him into believing he can make any demand he sees fit for the duration of my occupancy here. And I certainly don't have that amount of money to be throwing around for the sake of convenience.

The first day he tried demanding money (without even showing me a vet bill) he claimed he had already talked to the police and they were "with him on it" and that I had 24 hours to pay. When I called the police the responding officer actually laughed at the claim. They turned the incident over to animal control, who issued both of us citations for failing to restrain our animals. Both of us have paid our fines, so the criminal element of the incident has been disposed of.

I'm not terribly concerned about this going to civil court. They have both demonstrated such a limited knowledge of the law, by believing the police could order me to pay monetary damages, that I doubt they could navigate the process. Even if it did go to small claims, I think I would be at peace with it, as we would at least have an unbiased party deciding the case. They claim to have had to borrow the money to treat the dog, so they may not have the financial means either. As I said, I've made an offer of compensation to the wife for an amount less than the total vet bill. I'm waiting for her response. I don't anticipate her husband coming to my door again, but I still believe it would be wise to have a plan of action in the event he does. And I have always believed it's wise to know who you are dealing with, hence the question of a background check.

 

[JohnBT]

"I find it distressing that so many have said "just pay the man." "

Why? It was free advice and you got your money's worth. It was all pretty good advice I think. It's your choice, tell him to pound sand if you like.

My buddy the lawyer doesn't charge me for advice and does things for free if they don't take too long. Everyone isn't that fortunate. I've learned a lot from him since 1977.

I think my initial response would have been, "Your dog was running loose unattended in the alley? Why? You're lucky a squirrel or sewer rat didn't run off with it."

Seriously, your dog jumped the fence. Just because the toy dog was running loose, two wrongs don't make a right. Do you want peace in the neighborhood or do you just want to be right?

 

[JohnBT]

And you're neighbor is going to be crazy and irrational no matter what you do or don't do.

 

[Onward Allusion]

lyrikz

Lee, why does everyone say this.
"Be careful about what you post on the internet regarding your plans and intent in dealing with him. "

I can understand if he states he plans on shooting the guy. BUt just asking questions? I have heard this alot today but no one has cleared up why its a bad idea. Thank you.

1.) TACTICS CHECK: I don't think the husband is in any state of mind to participate in any kind of a productive discussion. If he comes back, I intend to assertively instruct him to step off the porch and around the railing (physical barrier) before going outside myself. I intend to have a handgun (concealed) and pepperspray on my person. I will tell him I don't feel comfortable speaking with him and can't afford trouble, and he is prohibited from coming to my door again. I haven't told him I was armed during our other exchanges and I intend to keep it under wraps.

No, OP actually stated that he plans on having his gun and pepper spray with him the next time. So much can be taken out of context. Just ask Mitt! Also the Internet IS FOREVER. G_D help the OP if he actually shoots and kills the neighbor the next time he sees him. Yup, planned ahead for an altercation. Shot the guy dead...yup... See what I mean?

 

[Cdigman]

I don't know that you should even offer to pay ANY of their dog's vet bills, period. As both dogs were off-leash, the encounter occurred on "middle ground", and BOTH dogs suffered injury from the other, it seems as though each owner should be responsible for their own dog's care. Offering to pay for their dog's treatment could be misconstrued as an admission of guilt. I'm no lawyer, but it's something to think about.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, there is that^^^

My dog got hit by my neighbor, she's fine now, but I had a 200 dollar vet bill, he offered on it and I turned him down, it was my fault for failing to control her.

little dogs are no excuse for being a bad owner.

 

[altitude_19]

Well, I'm not willing to arbitrarily give him whatever amount he wants, but I do intend to pay SOMETHING. Just on principle, if people don't pay anything for their dog's behavior, it tends to become an excuse to keep problem animals around. BUT, we're still on civil liability here. I was just looking for advice on how to deal with a volatile man safely and what would be worthwhile to know about him.

 

[Moose1995]

Unless he threatened you with violence in some sort of fashion, you have no legal ground to stand on to use pepper spray, let alone a firearm. My wife recently pulled a weapon on her sisters (ex) boyfriend after he entered our home after acting violently outside, kicking a car and yelling and shouting. He was arrested by the police for criminal trespass. After he got bailed out, he went to a courthouse and filed an order of protection against her for drawing a weapon. And guess what? The judge granted it to him. Best part is, she video taped the whole incident showing him breaking the law. The point is, there are a lot of legal ramifications that you may not be aware of, and sometimes these hotheads are all show and no go. Be careful, and don't get ahead of yourself is all I can say.