Debunked: Limp wristing is a valid excuse for malfunctions

[sturmgewehr]

To end this crud, we need a neutral 3rd party to shoot one of your "perfect" guns and demonstrate that it is possible for the way a pistol is held to cause FTF. Pretty simple eh'? Until that happens, give it a freakin' rest dude!

I'm not the one bringing this thread back to the top "dude".

 

[sturmgewehr]

methinks this gentleman's test and post has proved quite a lot about him, but not on the subject he declares

Yes, when you don't agree with the poster, attack him personally. Again, very HighRoad of you.

 

[rccola]

I realize that the current discussion no longer has anything to do with the original question, but thought I'd add a link to a mildly topical video (not mine, I have a M9, not an M40). Will be interested to see if the OP can obtain a proper limp wrist with some practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PietqS_ntc

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

So you can limp wrist your P226 .40?

I suppose I could if I wanted to, but my girlfriend did time and time again when she first started shooting. So yes, it can be done. Once this problem was pointed out to her, she firmed up her grip, problem solved.

 

[FLA2760]

Krokhus wrote, "If an attacker is on top of you trying to stab you in the face are you gonna politely ask him to step back a few paces so you can get into your Weaver stance" ? LOL. This is when my J frame gets emptied into his teeth. I am liking my revolvers better each day. I carry a G27 but I am never without my J frame BUG.

 

[Lonestar49]

Even with only one Shot, limpwristed?

Quote: Krokhus wrote, "If an attacker is on top of you trying to stab you in the face are you gonna politely ask him to step back a few paces so you can get into your Weaver stance" ? LOL.

*This is when my J frame gets emptied into his teeth. I am liking my revolvers better each day. I carry a G27 but I am never without my J frame BUG.
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*So, if I understand this (scenario) your semi failed to shoot "just once", first round, point black, into a supposedly, one on one moment, firing your glock, or any semi, for that matter, one handed, and the one shot, point blank, in the BG's face would not do the job.

Hmmm, maybe time to load-up the P232 or the EMP down on the ole ankle, so if any of my one-handed semi shots misses at point blank range, or fails to fire the loaded-chamber first round, one handed trigger pull..

Better safe than sorry I guess.. lol, as I would agree with you on the basis that revolvers do not react to limp-wristing. As they don't understand the need for checked/supported, balanced, recoil, to be in effect in order to cycle the "next round", fully, chambered, rdy to go


Ls

 

[sturmgewehr]

Just got back from the range.



This time, as proposed by another poster, I held the guns sideways in my hand. My wrist wasn't in the equation. I only tried to keep the guns from flipping completely out of my hand (I almost drop the Beretta as you'll see). Another thing to consider is that the guns are not only flipping up but are allowed to move backwards 6+ inches during recoil... something that wouldn't happen if you were using a proper two hand hold.

As noted by several others, the Glock absolutely will not cycle when being "limp wristed". It failed to cycle every single time.

The Beretta would fail usually once per mag, it did fail twice once. It also fired several magazines without a failure.

The others worked flawlessly including my buddies "truck gun" which is an old Colt Commander (1991A1) that literally hasn't been cleaned in 10 years. It's covered in rust and is filthy. I threw it in there expecting it to fail (it was bone dry too).

The other guns were freshly cleaned and lubed with Rem Oil. All were firing Winchester White Box.

**EDIT: Added higher quality video.

 

[Bullet]

This looks like a better test.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Here's a shot of the Sig in slow motion.

 

[Lonestar49]

Burrrrrrrr

Quote: *This looks like a better test.
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...

*I agree,

Good job, and hats off to ya for enduring some cold, painful, trigger-sting..

Glad I have all 3, Beretta, Sigs, Colt, and Springfield Armory, guns.

Thanks for your second, cold, winter, efforts..

A fair test of all the guns, in my view..


Ls

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

Looks interesting. Still I've seen my girlfriend limp wrist her P226 over and over again. After repeated jams and stove pipes we asked the range officer to take a look at the gun.

He picked it up and fired a full magazine, no jams or stove pipes. He told her to shoot it, she shot it, it jammed on the second round. He told us she was limp wristing. He corrected her grip, problem solved.

I've seen it with my own eyes.

Perhaps it's a particular way you hold the gun that causes the jams.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Good job, and hats off to ya for enduring some cold, painful, trigger-sting..

LOL, thanks. Yeah, not only were my hands cold but my knuckle kept getting slapped by trigger guards. I really didn't have any hold on those guns, they were free to jump around and whack me with all of their might. That little Commander gave it to my knuckle the worst.

 

[outlaw450r]

Was that glock compensated? If so you might want to try the testing again with the other guns being compensated.

 

[sturmgewehr]

It is compensated. It's a C model. I'll repeat the test on my standard 17 (which I've done, just not taped). The results are the same.

Anyway, here's a slowed down clip of the Glock.

 

[CountGlockula]

sturmgewehr-Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate limpwristing.

I have a question regarding...of course, the Glock 17C sample. What ammo were you using? Was the recoil spring stock? How many rounds have gone out of it? Thanks.

Just wondering.

Overall, I being biased, GLOCKs actually teaches me how to be better at gripping by preventing a limpwrist.

Thanks for the vid again. That's a great demonstration!

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

MUCH better test this time buddy! But I bet you can get those others that fired flawless to jam with the right(I mean wrong) hold.

 

[CryingWolf]

Much better test!!! Sort of proves in the end though that "limp wristing" and or a bad grip on the pistol could introduce problems. I did note that the 1911's among others seemed to weather the bad grip.

 

[sturmgewehr]

MUCH better test this time buddy! But I bet you can get those others that fired flawless to jam with the right(I mean wrong) hold.

Believe me, I tried. I fired several hundred rounds yesterday... to the point my hand is still throbbing today. The only way I could get them to fail I believe would be to reload some pud ammo.

Much better test!!! Sort of proves in the end though that "limp wristing" and or a bad grip on the pistol could introduce problems. I did note that the 1911's among others seemed to weather the bad grip.

We already knew limp wristing would cause malfunctions in some handguns. Now we know that the worst culprit is the Glock. It's kind of funny, the Glock handles extreme conditions like mud, snow and sand better than other pistols, but loosen your grip and the thing becomes a single shot.

 

[45auto]

Interesting, nice job.

So, anyone know or guess why Glock or others would fail?

Weight distribution/ratio of slide and frame, rail set-up, spring design or weight, etc?? Tightness of slide and frame?

Long thread, so I may have missed it but the XD "passed". So, it's not just plastic frames, flexing, steel slide combo, etc.

Again, nice job. If you bored some day, take the 1911 and increase the spring weight until, if, it fails. Or if you have a really tight frame/slide fit 1911, etc. No need to video tape it...I trust you!!

 

[weisse52]

I hope this finally puts this to rest.

I am sure it will continue to rage on. I do not recall having a failure due to this issue, BUT, just because I can/cannot do it does not mean it can/cannot happen.

I think I will see if I can get my G17 to fail.

 

[sturmgewehr]

...an interesting article:

Limp Wristing: The New Gremlin
6-Dec-07 – 03:10 by ToddG

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a shooter, instructor, or firearms “expert” blame a malfunction on limp wristing. Please, just stop.

Limp wristing is the gun industry’s version of gremlins. Gremlins, if you don’t know, were first “discovered” by pilots in the 1920’s. They are mischievous little mythical creatures. Every time an aircraft developed an unexplainable problem, it was blamed on a gremlin. If a plane crashed and no one knew why … a gremlin brought it down.

Well today, every time a pistol experiences a stoppage or malfunction that can’t be attributed to the ammo, certain gun companies immediately blame the shooter by saying he was “limp wristing.” It’s a catch-all that means absolutely nothing. It just pushes blame onto the shooter rather than admitting that guns sometimes malfunction.

A gun needs to work, and it needs to work particularly well when a shooter is under stress. So if there is a gun that requires a perfect grip, a gun that will only work if the shooter’s wrists are locked just right every single shot, then that is a bad gun design! Expecting a shooter to be perfect under stress is ridiculous. A gun design that requires perfect technique under stress is just as ridiculous.

We know that we won’t be perfect under stress. Our gear needs to keep working.

So the next time you or a student experiences a stoppage, don’t immediately blame the shooter. Guns malfunction. It happens. I’ve carried some of the most famously reliable guns, and they’ve had stoppages, malfunctions, parts breakages. It happens. Accept it, learn to clear the problem when it comes up, and drive on. But stop blaming gremlins.

Because either the pistol stopped working on its own, or it’s so finicky that you can’t rely on it when you’re under stress … Either way, the gun is at fault, not the shooter.

Train hard & stay safe! ToddG

Source: http://pistol-training.com/archives/82

 

[sturmgewehr]

I get a kick out of these slow motion videos.

 

[SwampWolf]

I continue to appreciate your efforts, Sturm. Though your tests are not necessarily "conclusive" (few things are), they do add to a further understanding of how (if not why) some pistols work under some conditions and some don't. While most people would agree that nothing will work in every situation, we should all endeavor to minimize known, qualitative negative factors whenever possible when we're relying on our handgun to save our lives or the life of a loved one.

I know you can't test every variant out there but I'd love to see the same tests performed on the CZ 75, the Browning "Hi-Power", the SIG 220, the S & W Military & Police, an HK USP variant and a "Third-Generation" Smith auto. I don't think that's too much to ask- after all, you started this!

 

[herohog]

I bet if someone supplied the guns and ammo, he'd be glad to comply.

 

[Dobe]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I applaud the effort. Is you conclusion that limp wristing is largely a fallicy, and that the Glock is too light weight?