Limp Wristing??

[WheelGunMan]

Ok, I'm a da. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say " Limp Wristing" . I even hear people say it can cause problems with the gun itself. How can that be? When I hear "limp wrist" I think of someone holding a gun out and instead of pointing straight out it's pointing down. Anybody willing enlighten this old da.

Here is a classic example of limp wristing. Note the space between the beaver tail and the web of the hand. Note the wrist position in relation to the pistol.


Here is what is considered a proper grip.

 

[The Glockodile]

A common mantra among bullseye shooters is to grip the gun only tightly enough to keep from dropping it.

Analogous to barely gripping the bow and letting it fall after the shot.

Or "Free Recoil" among Bench Shooters, and recently - some of the PRS guys.

 

[MrChicken]

I spent a lot of hours watching shooters on the line closely to see the cause of the issues they were having.

My thought on "limp wristing" and why it is so hard to correct is because the name is is incorrect.

You can watch young people, or very small adults shot full power handguns without issue be and has little to do with grip strength or wrist strength. You see large amounts of muzzle flip indicating a loose wrist and yet the gun still functions properly.
The real issue is keeping the gun located in the same place during firing, as it relates to single point in space. Basically if the gun doesn't move back towards the shooter a properly working auto will cycle.

The old guy at the range used to demonstrate shooting 1911's by using only his thumb, middle and trigger finger. It can pivot in his hand but it's otherwise held in that spot.

I would have people switch from two hands to one hand and watch their amazement that the gun would work one handed. That is due the rigidity of the arm holding the gun in that one spot. Typically the malfunction would come from the elbows flexing and allowing the gun to move back towards the shooter when fired two handed. One handed, people tend to lock the elbow (not good for the elbow long term) and the gun can't come back towards them.

 

[Zerodefect]

Try a Glock 43 or a Kahr Pm9. Hold really loose, use WWB or Rem UMC. Then try a Kahr P380 and G32.

Lol. You'll be an expert on limp wristing.

 

[tarosean]

Interestingly, his worst result is with a service-sized Glock 9mm pistol, whereas I have never experienced such malfs with G17, G19, and G26 9mm Glocks, Gen3 and Gen4. None, at all.

Quite interesting since I own the same gens and can get mine to do it on cue. (2x34,35,17,19)

 

[Slamfire]

I don't know about that. A common mantra among bullseye shooters is to grip the gun only tightly enough to keep from dropping it. I know when I used to shoot bullseye, I got the best result when the gun was pretty much just resting in my hand--with me just barely holding onto it enough so that it wouldn't drop or jump out of my grip when it recoiled.

Bullseye shooters are running 12 lb recoil springs and loads with just enough powder to function the mechanism. Stove pipe jams are common, but that is usually due to insufficient powder or a dirty pistol. Cold weather causes malfunctions with ammunition that ran perfectly in 90 degree weather. As for my self, I find that a "monster grip" works best keeping the pistol in place during timed and rapid fire. The front strap and rear are checkered on my 1911's and I dig my skin into the checking and stretch the palm, and lock the wrist as best I can. Everyone is particular about their hand placement on the pistol, getting the 45 exactly right, and in the same place, is critical for consistency.

 

[Nature Boy]

Analogous to barely gripping the bow and letting it fall after the shot.

Or "Free Recoil" among Bench Shooters, and recently - some of the PRS guys.

Interesting that you say that as this was my daughter’s issue. She is an F Class shooter and had free recoiling in her mind as this is her method when shooting rifles

 

[FL-NC]

The "limp wrist phenomenon" resulting in malfunctions seemed prevalent in the army when I was training females on the M9- esp. smaller ones who were having challenges with the fat grip of the M9 and their smaller fingers working with the DA trigger. I don't know if a different pistol would have helped or not, since the M9 is all we issued support soldiers.

 

[Riomouse911]

I was reading the posts, then holding my Glock 43X and looking at the straight-line relationship between the frame/slide and my arm bones when I hold it in my one-hand shooting grip. Even with a loose-finger grip, this relationship still sends recoil directly back through the wrist towards these bones lengthwise. The gun stays put, allowing the slide to move back and forth as intended.



Now with a smaller hand reaching around a wider grip to get to the trigger, like the Beretta M9 issues when being shot by female soldiers described by FL-NC above, the straight line relationship between the frame/slide, wrist and arm bones changes. It now places a touch more of the grip on the thumb joint rather than deep in the web. The result is a curve to the relationship as it is twisted a bit to let the smaller handed person to reach the trigger. This curve is allowing the wrist to absorb some recoil and taking away the rigidity present in the straight-line hold.

Even with a gorilla clamp on the grip frame, there is still the flex in the wrist that results from firing the gun slightly out of line.



Just an observation that may help (?) explain a little bit more about how a light grip can still get a stock gun to work right, while a blacksmith’s grip on the same gun can still result in “limp wrist” failures. This potential for failure increases if the handgun gun doesn’t fit the shooter….or if the shooters grip isn’t dialed in correctly.

Stay safe.

 

[roval]

Vast majority of the time, "limp wristing" is a catch-all term to explain semi-auto pistol malfunction. I have seen RSOs scream limp wrist on light primer strike failure to fire malfunctions. It is an overused term like "stopping power."

Caveat: Poor grip can cause some malfunctions, usually failure to eject. If you subscribe to a firm handshake when meeting people you can shoot a handgun.

exactly! the most overused diagnosis in a malfunction. i got a lot of grief over my 97bs malfunctions the first time out and shooting my reloads. everybody kept commenting on limp wristing, so once i got the ammo COAL sorted out, i made this video. it can't be any limper than that.

 

[JN01]

Whether it is the gun and hand pivoting at the wrist or the gun pivoting in the hand due to a loose grip, both result in losing recoil force that is needed to cycle the slide.

Even with a firm grip, the gun may pivot in the hand if it isn't held all the way at the top of the backstrap. I've seen several people have jamming issues due to trying to grip the gun half-way down the backstrap.

 

[Jonesy814]

8 or 9 years ago a buddy of mine had a handgun that ran fine, until his 9 year old shot it. Kid had a malfunction almost every magazine. Eventually we realized he did not have his wrist locked. He allowed the gun to move too much which robbed the slide of its inertia

 

[Mike J]

My wife, my daughter and a friend of my son’s all had this problem. None of them could get through a magazine without a FTF. My daughter was specific to one pistol, my son’s buddy encountered it with every pistol he fired.

I am the last thing from a pistol expert but I was able to explain what was going on once I ruled out the ammo and gun as the cause this way.

The slide requires a certain amount of inertia from recoil to eject the fired case and load the next round. If your wrist isn’t firm you’re absorbing that inertia and taking energy away from pistol that it needs to complete the cycle.

A few demonstrations of me firing a full mag without a jam showed them that it wasn’t the pistol, and an explanation of the nomenclature assigned this particular problem allowed them to not take it as a derogatory insult, and subsequently they all were able to get through a mag without a jam.

It is a shame that someone couldn’t come up with a better name for this issues

I went through the same thing with a female relative I took out to let shoot her new pistol. It was honestly the first time I had seen someone have this issue although I had read about it on the forum boards. I explained to her that the pistol needed a certain amount of resistance to recoil in order for the slide to cycle & return to battery. The problem went away. It surprised me as I had never experienced it.

 

[Zerodefect]

I've met women that can stove pipe the most reliable pistols out here, regularly.

Usually it's grip too low. Fear of the slide. And/or not filling the web of the hand with the beavertail.

I lock the slide back and then demonstrate that dragging it across my skin won't cut me (depends on brand and model of course). Then I demonstrate my insanely high grip, where my thumbs should be dragging on the slide, but rarely do.

 

[shoobe01]

Agree completely it's a terrible term. I'd guess all the way to homophobic naming back in the day. It's lack of proper grip and/or stance, to allow a recoil operated weapon to work. It is not restricted to handguns. Benelli shotguns, for one example, also are recoil operated and agencies that issued them widely in the 1990s (before carbines took over the world) had no end of issues with some officers failing to plant the butt hard, so they'd get relentless stoppages. It is associated with handguns because the vast majority are recoil operated, you can't "limp wrist" a... say, a Desert Eagle into malfunctioning. Or an AR15 pistol even when held with one hand. They are self-contained systems.

The most common thing that causes it in handguns is not a failure of strength, but the hand being low and not in full contact at the thumb web area. The gun free recoils before it makes contact, doesn't have resistance for the recoil operation to work properly. As I mentioned above, a recoil operated long-arm slightly off the shoulder will also fail to operate.

It is also just possible to have so much weakness in the arms that even with good grip it fails to operate properly as well, but this is self-correcting as the gun will also recoil into the shooter to a frightening degree so they will stop or whoever is advising them will be able to diagnose it. This is sometimes caused on first shots by the instructor over-emphasizing "relax" and the shooter loosens everything to the point they are only holding the gun up to the eyeline but nothing else. It is a bit common in seriously injured individuals; you'll find on investigation. the handgun stopped but that was not the cause of their shooting (or death), but sort of the result of it, as they tried to keep engaging when not really able to. But elderly shooters and small children can shoot mid-caliber recoil operated handguns without mechanical issues.

 

[Encoreman]

Yep limp wristing as well as improper grip can cause certain auto loaders or bottom feeders as I like to refer to them to malfunction. The auto loader has to have something to push against to cycle properly. An easy fix for anyone with injuries or whatever is a Revolver, they never,ever, ever fail to cycle because of limp wristing!!

 

[.308 Norma]

I've met women that can stove pipe the most reliable pistols out here, regularly.

Usually it's grip too low

You must have met my wife, but not recently. Up until about 7 or 8 years ago, I swear that woman could make any semi-auto jam - most often a stovepipe. And here’s the thing - while my wife is pretty darned small (5’1” and maybe 120lbs) and none too muscular, she’s anything but inexperienced with handguns - IF you’re only talking about revolvers. The fact is, my wife was one of Idaho’s top competitors back in her IHMSA days, and she used a Ruger “Super Silhouette” .44 Magnum.

Nevertheless, almost every semi my wife tried over the years would malfunction (as I said, most often a stovepipe) at least once for every magazine full of ammo she tried to run through it. And she flat out got tired of hearing about “limp wristing” from males who could no more out-shoot her with a revolver than fly to the moon. She finally asked a woman, the wife of the proprietor of a local gun shop, if she had any ideas.
.
That was the first time someone didn’t immediately go to “limp wristing” as a reason why a smaller person might be having problems with semi-auto handguns. The woman simply told my wife, “Maybe you’re not gripping it high enough.”

My wife took her old Sig P239 out as soon as she got home, and I don’t think it’s malfunctioned since. Same with her newer Smith .380 EZ Shield - it just runs and runs. However, remembering to grip a semi-auto pistol higher than what comes naturally for my wife still concerns me a bit. I sometimes wonder if she might not be better off carrying her old Smith .38 snubby for self-defense because if she needs a handgun, she’s probably going to need it in a hurry. And she might not have time to think about gripping it “high enough.”
On the other hand (no pun intended) my wife really likes her Smith Shield, so what she’s doing is just shooting the heck out of it. Hopefully, gripping it “high enough” will eventually become as natural for her as gripping one of her revolvers.

 

[Encoreman]

.308 Norma you are absolutely correct about gripping a semi as high up as you can, get up into that beavertail. In your wife's situation for a self defense gun I say use the Smith snubby and something I just found out that testing shows using a plain wadcutter is more effective on gelatin than a hollowpoint. I have long contended that folks that don't shoot a lot and are not real familiar with firearms to always use a revolver. No safeties to disengage, just pull the trigger. Granted round count isn't as good as most semi's, but I would wager that the first couple of shots on target would be quicker. Whatever she decides tell her to practice, practice, practice. That is how shooters get good. I used to shoot USPSA and have been around lots of the top shooters, and practicing is their world.

 

[murf]

a lot of shooters "help" recoil. this, coupled with anticipation of the recoil, can cause the slide to short stroke. the cure is to stop helping the recoil, to keep the wrist (not your elbows) locked during recoil and to keep the gun pointed at the target during recoil (follow-through).

this may help cure "limp wristing" even with a low grip on the gun.

luck,

murf