Debunking the one shot stop myth

[patrol120]

Tonight I had the unfortunate oppurtunity to fire my wepon in the line of duty. Thanfully it was a dog, not a person. I reponded to a viscious animal at large call, and with head fully in ass, I did not grab the shotgun from the car when I got out. I spot the dog, a very agitated Pit mix. The dog, instead of doing the normal dog thing, and backing off while remaining defensive, comes toward me in a menacing manner. It lunged at me once, and backed off. Light bulb above my head goes off, and I unholster my Sig P220, and ooze ever so slowly towards my patrol car to fetch the scattergun.

The dog doesnt give me chance, and again approaches me in a threatening manner. I shot the dog once in the center of the chest from a distance of about 6 feet, maybe 8. Shot lands good, and the dog does a complete backflip, and takes off running. I fire one more shot, that I THINK landed in the gut region. The dog then proceds to run about a mile and a half into the woods, where I lose it. The whole time the dog is running, its dying. from my hunting days, i can tell a lung shot easily. Frothy blood everywhere, and running on pure fear and adrenaline. Every few feet, the dog falters, and regains its step. By the time I lose visual, the dog is completely red, covered in blood it has aspirated.

230gr .45acp Gold Dots are good rounds. No one has ever denied that. This simply goes to show that a pne shot stop is a myth, even in a dog. Anger, fear, and adrenaline are powerful mitigating factors in survival. I am sure the dog died soon after losing it. I am sure the dog would have died had I not chased it, causing more fear. I should have went for a head shot, but Hindsight is 20/20, and the shot did protect myself, stopping the threat.

Now, I must undergo a shooting advisory board. Have I lost faith in the Gold Dot? Absoultely not. The shot was good, and the best I can tell, the bullet performed as designed. The dog simply did not want to die, and thats what any shooting boils down to, I imagine.

 

[P95Carry]

Fascinating and, I guess, not overly surprising. I think we most know that a handgun is no magic wand when it comes to totally stopping (immediately) a determined adversary - and this was in a sense just such a case.

I'd ask up front - please folks - do NOT let this become as we have had several times in not so distant past - a flame session on dogs and dog attacks!! If it deteriates it will close.

 

[patrol120]

Yes, i agree. I took absolutely no pleasure in shooting the dog. I wish I could have found a different alternative, but the dog was aggressive, the breed has no bearing. I probably should not have included it, but it helped paint the picture.

I work in a small municipality, and we have an animal control officer. However, she has been injured, and on light duty for some time now, so no less lethal means were available. In hindsight, I should have staye din the car until a different mens were available, but the diog was reportedly agressive towrds some children and older ladies in the neighborhood.

 

[Geno]

I've shot more deer, boar, etc...they don't drop with heart shots

I have seen deer and boar run over a quarter mile (easily) and stand looking about for nearly 5 minutes. I have it on video from several of my hunts, using 6mm Remingtons, to .300 Wea. Mags. all the way up to the venerable .375 H&H Mag. and even after taking a shot to the heart that literally dislocated (discinnected completely) the heart the animal took almost 5 minutes to drop dead. If I hadn't been witness to such events it might be hard to believe. Some people have had to see the videos to believe it.

Glad you weren't nor was anyone else hurt. Good work! By the way, this is exactly the reason I carry 24/7 when out of doors, even in my own back yard. Dogs know no borders, do they? Goodness knows they know little fear too. Good post; good details. Good luck in the shooting review board. I am confident all will go well. I'll say a prayer for you all the same. Officers who do their job and protect society surely shouldn't be harassed for doing exactly that. There are times when a judgement has to be made.

Doc2005

 

[patrol120]

The board does not worry me, and I am actually glad they do these things. Until I am the one under the microscope, that is!!

The fact is, society loves animals. I love animals. Any time an animal is shot in front of the public we serve, there should be a review. If there is not, then one only knows the rumors that will be spread. Even so, I fully expect someone wanting to know who shot their 5,000 dollar, show quality, family pet when I get to work tomorrow. Such is the game, and I must play by the rules.

 

[P95Carry]

I'd say Patrol - if the risk of even remotely likely attacks on kids was present then - you did what needed done. I am assuming here too, this was occurring on public property - outside if you will of total private property.

I too would take no pleasure in having to do this but overall - our judgement does I think have to be geared toward the ''greater good''. In the absence of good owner control - leash laws etc - then this had to be seen as somewhat of a loose cannon problem.

As you describe it I'd say you did the responsible thing. Thx for posting - it is a valuable observation I think.

 

[Geno]

Excellent point!

I understand that. I was a high school principal for 5 years...public accountability. I too would prefer a public or other board review to step forward and say something to the effect of, "Yes, of course we regret it, but regretibly it was unavoidable" and to formally both clear and support you. I recall my own brother's days as an officer for nearly 25 years (I think). That public support factor can not be under estimated. All the same, there is the unavoidable anxiety that goes along with it. And we ALL face anxiety. This post is a well-needed dose of "reality therapy" or that is to say, a "reality check" for all of us. We never know when we begin our work day, exactly how it will end, do we? Oh to have 20/20 foresight. Time for me to leave. Again, good work!

Doc2005

 

[horge]

Glad neither you nor any other people were hurt, patrol120.
It's a dangerous line of work you're in, and we should all be grateful
you and others out there are on duty.

 

[Reyn]

Two of our deputies were out at a residence when they heard a woman screaming several houses down. They ran to the house and found a woman being attacked by 2 rottweilers. The woman, 20yr old female turned out to be one of the owners. The owners were burning a field off and for some reason when the fire came close to the house the dogs freaked. The 2 dogs attacked the girl and then turned on the deputies. I talked with one of them afterwards and asked him about the reaction. He said they had to fire multiple times to stop them.He said he was suprised at how much it took to put them down. We carry Glock31s .357sigs.

 

[TimboKhan]

Well, this is a good reason to not expect a particular round to work wonders. One of the reasons that I carry plain old ball ammunition in my .45 is that I feel that shot placement being good, the ball will do its job just as well as anything else. This opinion is shared by some, but not all, but this just tells me that I am justified in thinking the way I do. Not to say that ball ammo would have killed the dog where Gold Dot didn't, and not to say Gold Dot is bad ammo, just saying that the dog wasn't killed any faster with Gold Dot than he likely would have been with ball.

 

[AStone]

It's not about heart destruction, it's about O2 deprivation

I have seen deer and boar run over a quarter mile (easily) and stand looking about for nearly 5 minutes. I have it on video from several of my hunts, using 6mm Remingtons, to .300 Wea. Mags. all the way up to the venerable .375 H&H Mag. and even after taking a shot to the heart that literally dislocated (discinnected completely) the heart the animal took almost 5 minutes to drop dead. If I hadn't been witness to such events it might be hard to believe. Some people have had to see the videos to believe it.

I've addressed this phenomenon in other threads in the past. One more time won't hurt.

I'm a biologist. Have taught anatomy & physiology many times. The phenomenon that you and Patrol120 witnessed (in his case with a dog) is not at all surprising biologically.

Putting a bullet through the heart of any animal, human or otherwise, may stop blood flow. But that is NOT what stops life. Stopping the heart does NOT stop life, at least not immediately.

What stops life is oxygen (O2) deprivation to major organs, notably brain & muscles. Because there is a fair amount of O2 already in those tissues, delivered there when the heart was still pumping, the tissues can still carry on aerobic (i.e., O2 dependent) metabolism for several minutes. The average time to brain death caused by O2 deprivation is 4 minutes.

Active muscles (e.g., during running) will hit deprivation more quickly, but muscles have special molecules (myoglobin, similar to hemoglobin) that allow extra O2 to be stored, extending the time to deprivation.

In addition, even after O2 is fully depleted, some energy (in the form of ATP) can be produced by anaerobic means that does not require oxygen. This is what allows sprinters to finish races even when their lungs cannot provide enough O2 to full normal aerobic metabolism. They go aerobic, then continue to breathe hard after the race to "repay the oxygen debt".

So again, you all need to grasp this: a heart shot will NOT cause immediate stoppage. An aorta shot will NOT cause immediate stop.

The only thing that will gaurantee an immediate stop is destruction of the central nervous system, notably the brain.

Otherwise, plan on a strong probability of movement, perhaps in your direction.

Nem

 

[Oldtimer]

Patrol, it sounds like your shooting was both justifiable AND necessary. I don't think that you should beat yourself up, though, by saying that you had your HUA (head up "you-know-where").

During my 31 years in law enforcement, I was attacked only once by an aggressive, vicious-looking dog (Rottweiler). The dog got within about 15 feet of me, but was at a full-speed run toward me when I fired a single round into a lawn, just a few feet in front of me. The noise of the "warning shot" turned out to be sufficient enough to stop the dog from continuing its attack.

I was off-duty, walking along the sidewalk about half a block from my home when a good-sized mixed Shepherd took me by surprise. With its teeth bared and viciously growling as it ran toward me, I heard the owner (neighbor across the street) yell, "Don't worry, he doesn't bite!" Well, that threw me off, but didn't stop me from giving the dog a well-placed front kick to its snout. I was VERY lucky, but so was the dog! YES, I was packing!
A few months later, that same dog attacked the two children of the family that owned it. Their grandma was baby-sitting the kids at the time, heard the kids screaming in the backyard and saw the dog locked onto the arm of one of the kids.
The only thing available to her was a standard sized shovel, and grandma stopped the attack....
AND killed the dog.....a one-shovel kill!

Your shooting will, most likely, come back as an "in-policy" OIS.

 

[Janitor]

In hindsight, I should have staye din the car until a different mens were available, but the diog was reportedly agressive towrds some children and older ladies in the neighborhood.

You ended up doing just what you had to do. We all, the majority of us at least, will agree it was horrible to have to put the dog down. But that's exactly why you were needed there - to protect the children and other people in the neighborhood, not the dog. I'm not going to try and second guess how you did things. Yea - maybe you could have waited in the car. Were there any citizens in danger? Was the dog maybe going to get away? Were there any people about that you just couldn't see?

I am one dog lover that thinks you probably did the right thing.

Yes - it's bad the dog had to die - but it did. Thankfully you weren't (physically) hurt in the process. Thank you for the accounting. I carry Gold Dots, and imagine that I will continue to do so. It's still interesting to see how weak a handgun really is - even our much vaunted .45s - in the face of reality.

You're right. Should have had the shotty. But you didn't.

Again - I'm really glad you didn't get hurt.
-

 

[rock jock]

Patrol,

I can't see what else you could have done other than shoot the poor animal. You have an obligation to protect the public, and that is exactly what you did. The real blame here lies with the irresponsible owner, who should be ticketed IMO.



Nematocyst,

Great writeup! Very helpful understanding the physiology of a heart shot. We should all remember this when we carry for SD.

 

[Biker]

Not too far off topic I hope, but has anyone ever used a Taser on a vicious dog? I've never even handled one so I'm clueless concerning aiming, sights, etc..
Biker

 

[allmons]

You did your duty

Excellent example of a conscientious LEO performing difficult duty. You guys NEVER get enough credit for the hard decisions you have to make daily. Thank you for your hard work!

 

[hotpig]

Too bad that it had to happen, just keep going and do not worry about it. The City will make a cash settlement with the dog owner. The press and public may rake you for a while but the Holidays are coming so people will forget soon enough.

 

[Manedwolf]

I just wish the courts and media would pay attention to this.

It seems like in a lot of self-defense cases, if the homeowner shoots the home-invader once, it's all fine and good. But if they shoot them two, three, four times, then there's mumbling about "excessive force" on the news and more chance of some kind of charges, it seems.

This sort of post shows the truth...that if someone is coming at you and especially if THEY are armed, it would be nearly suicidal to take one shot, then stop and see if you did enough damage. Myself, I'd keep firing till they were no longer a threat, as in they turn and flee, or drop their weapon or go down.

I think too many people in society have been influenced by Hollywood, where one shot from a handgun propels a bad-guy back through a window and nonsense like that.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I honestly believe that that caliber, ammunition and shot placement have less to do with those mythical "one shot stops" as conditioning of the target does. In other words the dog has not spent a large portion of it's life watching MagnumPI and Maimi Vice. The dog just didn't know that when it had been shot it was supposed to fall flat on it's back and stick it's legs straight up in the air.

 

[LeonCarr]

To kinda sorta echo what Nematocyst-870 said, the only thing that will guarantee an immediate stop is a hit to the CNS, more specifically the Medula Oblongata/brainstem area.

When I went through the police academy, we had a 4 hour block of instruction on dogs, both the K-9 police aspects and also the "bad dog" aspects. I learned that basically the only 100% way to immediately stop a dog is to put the barrel inside their mouth and pull the trigger.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Chipperman]

Sorry you had to put the dog down, but it sounds like you did the right thing.

If the owner shows up and tries to make trouble, make sure you cite them for not having ther dog under control (Leash, fenced yard, etc).

Has anyone gone to recover the body? It may have tags that will allow you to find the owner. It also would allow you to necropsy it and see where the bullet actually went.

 

[magyvor]

Thanks..........

All I have to say is Thanks....nothing more, nothing less.

Its LEOs like you Patrol120 that are a credit to ANY uniform.

Again, sincere thanks

 

[patrol120]

Not too far off topic I hope, but has anyone ever used a Taser on a vicious dog? I've never even handled one so I'm clueless concerning aiming, sights, etc..
Biker

The next town over used a taser on a dog last week or so. They reported it worked quite well, while the shock was active. The instant the 5 second cycle was up, the dog ran faster than ever.

Has anyone gone to recover the body? It may have tags that will allow you to find the owner. It also would allow you to necropsy it and see where the bullet actually went.

We searched for the dog for over two hours after the incident. Its gone. I would have loved to found it, just to make sure to myself that I hadnt created a wounded, viscous dog. I know in my mind that the dog is dead, but it makes me physically ill to think that the dog is living, suffering, and even more dangerous.

 

[AStone]

Nematocyst,

Great writeup! Very helpful understanding the physiology of a heart shot. We should all remember this when we carry for SD.

Glad you found it of value, Rock Jock. I don't make much money as a biologist. All we're really good for is teaching. If I can help some of you fine folks understand a few useful principles of biology in exchange for all the great weapons info I learn on THR, then I'm happy.

Patrol, I was so focused on my little physiology essay yesterday that I forgot to add words of support for you.

I concur with everyone else above: based on the way you described the incident, I think you did the right thing. Well, let me put it this way: had I been in your shoes in that scenario as described, I'd have done the same thing you did.

The closest I've come to shooting a dog was a few years ago when I was living in a rurual area. My neighbor had two labs, both of which were pretty schizo.

They did not understand the concept of "their property" v. "my property". They would regularly trot through my yard on the way to the woods behind my house. (Yes, their owner gave them free reign of the neighborhood. No fence, no leash.)

When I spoke to the owner about their aggressive behavior towards me, he responded that they were actually very gentle dogs that never hurt anyone, and that they were growling at me because I wore a baseball cap, and they didn't like people who wear baseball caps.

In one incident, the older of the two backed me up onto my porch by growling and baring it's teeth. I threw it a chicken bone (was eating lunch at the time), and escaped inside.

About a month later, when a friend from out of town came by at night, the dogs came into my yard, barking, approaching us threateningly, slowly advancing as we removed his bags from his trunk (though not charging).

I spoke to the dogs in a kind, friendly voice, by name, trying to reassure them that all was good. They kept advancing, growling.

I stepped inside, came back out with my 9 mm, and fired one shot about three feet in front of them into the dirt driveway. (Yes, I checked the backstop. The only thing behind them was Puget Sound.)

The dogs left "skidmarks" in the dirt a couple of inches deep in the dirt trying to get away.

I never saw them again, but then I only lived there for another two months.

Nem

 

[Atticus]

Dogs and dandruff....Head and Shoulders seems to be the key.
It sounds like you did the right thing. I hope everything goes well for you.