Decapping pin torque?

[Dudedog]

Off center flash holes from Aguila and Fiocchi (GFL headstamp), which makes up about 2/3 of my brass collection in 32 ACP. Ha ha!

I was dealing with some .223 brass and that's why I made it really tight and mangled a pin.....
Didn't realize at first what was going on, just thinking wow those primers are really crimped in tight.

OP, sorry that was the problem, and you have some not so swift brass.
My experience was the same, some flash holes were ok and some were out there.
If you haven't heard of it or ran into it you have no reason to expect them to be screwed up, I mean how hard can it be to make a flash hole and get it centered?

Apparently harder than I thought.

Never had the issue with any other brass and I use lots range pickup 9mm brass.
I sent some spare 9mms to tightgroup tiger and he said there were like 40 flavors. (all of which seemed to get the flashholes correct.......)


Maybe the off center flashholes are a design feature,
I can see it now,
Our special off center flashholes result in better combustion because by
inighting the powder column off center results is swirling combustion which results in a more complete powder burn.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I was dealing with some .223 brass and that's why I made it really tight and mangled a pin.....
Didn't realize at first what was going on, just thinking wow those primers are really crimped in tight.

OP, sorry that was the problem, and you have some not so swift brass.
My experience was the same, some flash holes were ok and some were out there.
If you haven't heard of it or ran into it you have no reason to expect them to be screwed up, I mean how hard can it be to make a flash hole and get it centered?

Apparently harder than thought.

Never had the issue with any other brass and I use lots range pickup 9mm brass.
I sent some spare 9mms to tightgroup tiger and he said there were like 40 flavors. (all of which seemed to get the flashholes correct.......)


Maybe the off center flashholes are a design feature,
I can see it now,
Our special off center flashholes result in better combustion because by
inighting the powder column off center results is swirling combustion which results in a more complete powder burn.

Fiocchi's response: "Ci, they are more artistic than any of the ordinary flash holes. Like the snowflake, each one is unique. The great Michaelangelo, he say, 'You don't know what statue is inside the rock until you chisel it,' and this is how our flash holes are made as well. Arrivederci!"

 

[Y-T71]

Quite a bit of my .45acp brass is Fiocchi; the headstamp says 'FIOCCHIUSA 45A.C.P.'

It's been great brass, that I've loaded many, many times over the years.

I had no idea "GFL" was Fiocchi as well.

It (GFL) doesn't have a very good reputation from online sources (but, being "online sources" I never put much stock in that!)

I've heard a lot of guys toss it without even trying it (mostly .223/5.56) but I never put 2+2 together; ie, I never had any reason to research 'Fiocchi' because I never had a problem with it.

Interesting

 

[drband]

Looks a lot like the old dreaded “AMERC” .45acp brass.

 

[Radom Guy]

It (GFL) doesn't have a very good reputation from online sources (but, being "online sources" I never put much stock in that!)

I've heard a lot of guys toss it without even trying it (mostly .223/5.56) but I never put 2+2 together; ie, I never had any reason to research 'Fiocchi' because I never had a problem with it.

Interesting

Agreed about “internet opinions.” I don’t go for Internet Lore either. Even though this forum site is obviously on the internet, I do not equate it with the rest of the internet. Comments here (90%) are actually helpful and people are generally and genuinely polite to one another. And people talk about their real experiences here, not just “a guy I met at the range said Fiocchi sucks ass” types!

Off topic a bit, not terribly important, if anyone sees this comment and knows one way or the other, I am wondering if Norma’s 9mm Luger brass (their current American made ammo) also has off center flash holes. I noticed that my own personal once fired Norma 9mm Luger brass has been giving me trouble on my Hornady LNL progressive press. I have not taken the time to look into it just yet, but last week I had to put around 50 rounds of 9mm in the “To Be Pulled” pile. One piece of Norma brass set my reloading process off kilt. I did not know at the time that that single Norma 9mm case had started the problem of loading 50 or so rounds with their spent primers still present (since the decapping pin of 9mm resize and decapping die had slid upward and no primers were being popped out after that).

I have experienced problems with my own once fired Norma 9mm brass a bunch of times, actually. I was considering removing all Norma 9mm brass from my collection because of this, which just seemed ludicrous to me considering it was my own brass, and it has Norma’s good name on it. As I said above, I just have not had the time to investigate why the Norma brass was giving me a headache yet. It certainly seems similar to what I am experiencing with the Aguila and Fiocchi 32 ACP brass.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Agreed about “internet opinions.” I don’t go for Internet Lore either. Even though this forum site is obviously on the internet, I do not equate it with the rest of the internet. Comments here (90%) are actually helpful and people are generally and genuinely polite to one another. And people talk about their real experiences here, not just “a guy I met at the range said Fiocchi sucks ass” types!

Off topic a bit, not terribly important, if anyone sees this comment and knows one way or the other, I am wondering if Norma’s 9mm Luger brass (their current American made ammo) also has off center flash holes. I noticed that my own personal once fired Norma 9mm Luger brass has been giving me trouble on my Hornady LNL progressive press. I have not taken the time to look into it just yet, but last week I had to put around 50 rounds of 9mm in the “To Be Pulled” pile. One piece of Norma brass set my reloading process off kilt. I did not know at the time that that single Norma 9mm case had started the problem of loading 50 or so rounds with their spent primers still present (since the decapping pin of 9mm resize and decapping die had slid upward and no primers were being popped out after that).

I have experienced problems with my own once fired Norma 9mm brass a bunch of times, actually. I was considering removing all Norma 9mm brass from my collection because of this, which just seemed ludicrous to me considering it was my own brass, and it has Norma’s good name on it. As I said above, I just have not had the time to investigate why the Norma brass was giving me a headache yet. It certainly seems similar to what I am experiencing with the Aguila and Fiocchi 32 ACP brass.

I have very limited experience with Norma 9mm but it is one of the brands I set aside for cutting down to 9mmMak just because it’s soft and cuts nicely. I think it may have a slightly different alloy than cartridge brass but I haven’t assayed it to find out. If the base metal is very soft compared to cartridge brass then it may also pressure weld to primers more easily. Something to investigate is who makes it for Norma.

 

[Radom Guy]

I have very limited experience with Norma 9mm but it is one of the brands I set aside for cutting down to 9mmMak just because it’s soft and cuts nicely. I think it may have a slightly different alloy than cartridge brass but I haven’t assayed it to find out. If the base metal is very soft compared to cartridge brass then it may also pressure weld to primers more easily. Something to investigate is who makes it for Norma.

Thanks. I also load 9mm Makarov too, and convert cases, by the way.

Given that Norma is or was part of the RUAG corporation, I figured they made their own brass. Or perhaps RUAG has a brass making subsidiary that makes brass for all their ammo companies. But, since Beretta just bought Norma Ammunition’s United States operation, brass could come from somewhere else entirely. I’ll try to find this out but I don’t think I’ll have much luck, considering the recent purchase by Beretta.

Regardless, thanks for mentioning that about the soft brass and the possibility of it pressure welding the primers in. I’ll keep an eye out for that possibility as I investigate my issue another time.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Looks a lot like the old dreaded “AMERC” .45acp brass.

Like this? What’s the dread? Just another headstamp to me…until now.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Agreed about “internet opinions.” I don’t go for Internet Lore either. Even though this forum site is obviously on the internet, I do not equate it with the rest of the internet. Comments here (90%) are actually helpful and people are generally and genuinely polite to one another. And people talk about their real experiences here, not just “a guy I met at the range said Fiocchi sucks ass” types!

Off topic a bit, not terribly important, if anyone sees this comment and knows one way or the other, I am wondering if Norma’s 9mm Luger brass (their current American made ammo) also has off center flash holes. I noticed that my own personal once fired Norma 9mm Luger brass has been giving me trouble on my Hornady LNL progressive press. I have not taken the time to look into it just yet, but last week I had to put around 50 rounds of 9mm in the “To Be Pulled” pile. One piece of Norma brass set my reloading process off kilt. I did not know at the time that that single Norma 9mm case had started the problem of loading 50 or so rounds with their spent primers still present (since the decapping pin of 9mm resize and decapping die had slid upward and no primers were being popped out after that).

I have experienced problems with my own once fired Norma 9mm brass a bunch of times, actually. I was considering removing all Norma 9mm brass from my collection because of this, which just seemed ludicrous to me considering it was my own brass, and it has Norma’s good name on it. As I said above, I just have not had the time to investigate why the Norma brass was giving me a headache yet. It certainly seems similar to what I am experiencing with the Aguila and Fiocchi 32 ACP brass.

I just found 32 GFL cases (out of 200 or so 9mm I looked through) with just five having off center holes. If I wanted to be picky I could add a couple more but that’s only because I was looking hard.

I use a Lee 9mm decapping/sizing die and haven’t had any problems.

Like their 45acp cases, I noted actually three different GFL headstamps:
1) the letters “GFL”;
2) the letters followed by periods “G.F.L.”;
3) the letters followed by periods “G.F.L.” with a dash on either side.
All have “9mm Luger” also of course.

Also found 2 of 2 Aguila 9mm with off center holes. Found NO Norma good, bad, or otherwise.

As I said before I’ve had no problems with 45ACP GFL even though many of the flash holes are way off. I use a Redding decapping/sizing die without problems. Here they are waiting in line for use.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I just found 32 GFL cases (out of 200 or so 9mm I looked through) with just five having off center holes. If I wanted to be picky I could add a couple more but that’s only because I was looking hard.

I use a Lee 9mm decapping/sizing die and haven’t had any problems.

Like their 45acp cases, I noted actually three different GFL headstamps:
1) the letters “GFL”;
2) the letters followed by periods “G.F.L.”;
3) the letters followed by periods “G.F.L.” with a dash on either side.
All have “9mm Luger” also of course.

Also found 2 of 2 Aguila 9mm with off center holes.

As I said before I’ve had no problems with 45ACP GFL even though many of the flash holes are way off. I use a Redding decapping/sizing die without problems. Here they are waiting in line for use.
View attachment 1130936

Given the size differential between 9mm and .32ACP cases and their respective rim differences as well, comparing 9mm to .32 isn’t quite apples to oranges but close. More like limes to oranges I guess.

Kind of like judging transmission problems in a Fiat based on your experience with Buicks.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Given the size differential between 9mm and .32ACP cases and their respective rim differences as well, comparing 9mm to .32 isn’t quite apples to oranges but close. More like limes to oranges I guess.

Kind of like judging transmission problems in a Fiat based on your experience with Buicks.

Agreed but it’s what I had. Also, you can wager Italian Fiats (vs. newer Japanese Fiats) have transmission problems (and every other major component) regardless of one’s experience with Buicks or anything else.

 

[jmorris]

Off center flash holes from Aguila and Fiocchi (GFL headstamp), which makes up about 2/3 of my brass collection in 32 ACP. Ha ha!

Good job folks, you are correct!

and that’s why I don’t mind them sliding, when they need to.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Quite a bit of my .45acp brass is Fiocchi; the headstamp says 'FIOCCHIUSA 45A.C.P.'

It's been great brass, that I've loaded many, many times over the years.

I had no idea "GFL" was Fiocchi as well.

It (GFL) doesn't have a very good reputation from online sources (but, being "online sources" I never put much stock in that!)

I've heard a lot of guys toss it without even trying it (mostly .223/5.56) but I never put 2+2 together; ie, I never had any reason to research 'Fiocchi' because I never had a problem with it.

Interesting

Yeah it’s First Name (can’t recall but starts with G), Fiocchi, and town of Lecco (darn near Switzerland)

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thanks. I also load 9mm Makarov too, and convert cases, by the way.

Given that Norma is or was part of the RUAG corporation, I figured they made their own brass. Or perhaps RUAG has a brass making subsidiary that makes brass for all their ammo companies. But, since Beretta just bought Norma Ammunition’s United States operation, brass could come from somewhere else entirely. I’ll try to find this out but I don’t think I’ll have much luck, considering the recent purchase by Beretta.

Regardless, thanks for mentioning that about the soft brass and the possibility of it pressure welding the primers in. I’ll keep an eye out for that possibility as I investigate my issue another time.

Cutting 9Luger to 9Mak is one of the fun things about reloading. It’s like cheating the system.
There’s about a dozen head stamps I set aside for that and only one is because the brass is not good for reloading to spec: A-USA. I get feed problems from it too often and it’s just better cut down than full size.
For.32ACP, I seem to recall Lee uses the same sizing die for .32S&W. I don’t recall any problems with sizing or decapping but I do recall the recommended case holder has a bad fit and I use a different one than the Lee. I suppose it might be worth checking out the rims of the GFL for thickness differences.

 

[Radom Guy]

Cutting 9Luger to 9Mak is one of the fun things about reloading. It’s like cheating the system.
There’s about a dozen head stamps I set aside for that and only one is because the brass is not good for reloading to spec: A-USA. I get feed problems from it too often and it’s just better cut down than full size.
For.32ACP, I seem to recall Lee uses the same sizing die for .32S&W. I don’t recall any problems with sizing or decapping but I do recall the recommended case holder has a bad fit and I use a different one than the Lee. I suppose it might be worth checking out the rims of the GFL for thickness differences.

I agree, case conversion for 9mm Makarov is beating the system type fun!

You are right about the die being a combo die for 32S&W. The difficulties that I have been writing about in this post have been using the shell plate for my Lee Auto Breech Lock Pro press for the most part. However, the decapping problem certainly occurs when I was previously using me Lee Classic Cast Turret Press too, but not as bad. The single cse shell holder allows for a bit more movement than the shell plate of the Lee ABLP. Also, for the Turret press and the single stage press , I also use a RCBS shell holder for 32 ACP. It holds the case a little tighter but overall performance is the same as the Lee 32 ACP shell holder. I mention this just because you brought it up. I don’t mean to go down a new rabbit hole, haha! I’m entirely happy with my resolution now with the off center flash holes.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I agree, case conversion for 9mm Makarov is beating the system type fun!

You are right about the die being a combo die for 32S&W. The difficulties that I have been writing about in this post have been using the shell plate for my Lee Auto Breech Lock Pro press for the most part. However, the decapping problem certainly occurs when I was previously using me Lee Classic Cast Turret Press too, but not as bad. The single cse shell holder allows for a bit more movement than the shell plate of the Lee ABLP. Also, for the Turret press and the single stage press , I also use a RCBS shell holder for 32 ACP. It holds the case a little tighter but overall performance is the same as the Lee 32 ACP shell holder. I mention this just because you brought it up. I don’t mean to go down a new rabbit hole, haha! I’m entirely happy with my resolution now with the off center flash holes.

well that makes sense…off center hole+movement in case holder=bad mojo.

 

[Radom Guy]

I loaded up around 75 rounds of 32 ACP today with my “new” procedure. Decap brass with Universal DePriming Die on a single stage, and prime on it’s downstroke. I chose to prime on the single stage because the primer holes on some of the mixed brass is not always uniform; that can make progressive loading tricky sometimes. After that, using my Lee Auto Breech Lock Pro, I removed the decapper from the decap/resize die (ironic considering my original post about this, haha), and did all 75 on the progressive. Not exactly a speed demon of a process, but I don’t mind. I’m happy with the results. Thanks again, folks!

Some day in the future, I plan to load this caliber on my Hornady LNL AP progressive. For now, the Lee does the job somewhat slowly, and that’s okay.

 

[deadeye dick]

Been loading pistol for over 15 yrs. and never found a off center flash hole, (never found one because i never looked for one) All different head stamps. Any brass that i had trouble decapping was for another reason.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I loaded up around 75 rounds of 32 ACP today with my “new” procedure. Decap brass with Universal DePriming Die on a single stage, and prime on it’s downstroke. I chose to prime on the single stage because the primer holes on some of the mixed brass is not always uniform; that can make progressive loading tricky sometimes. After that, using my Lee Auto Breech Lock Pro, I removed the decapper from the decap/resize die (ironic considering my original post about this, haha), and did all 75 on the progressive. Not exactly a speed demon of a process, but I don’t mind. I’m happy with the results. Thanks again, folks!

Some day in the future, I plan to load this caliber on my Hornady LNL AP progressive. For now, the Lee does the job somewhat slowly, and that’s okay.

I love it when a plan comes together.

 

[Dudedog]

BTW some 9mm brass has crimped primers and the pin in the Lee die will need to be tighter than you use for normal non-crimped brass.

For me 9mm brass with crimped primers goes in the recycle can. I will remove crimps from .223/5.56 but I have enough 9mm brass so I don't need to mess with them 9mm.

 

[Radom Guy]

BTW some 9mm brass has crimped primers and the pin in the Lee die will need to be tighter than you use for normal non-crimped brass.

For me 9mm brass with crimped primers goes in the recycle can. I will remove crimps from .223/5.56 but I have enough 9mm brass so I don't need to mess with them 9mm.

I do the same with the crimped 9mm brass - in the trash! I keep my crimped 5.56, too, but I have removed enough crimps to date that I just reuse that brass for now. If ever I run out, I’ll have plenty of my own once fired crimped factory brass that will just need a little elbow grease is all.

 

[Radom Guy]

I love it when a plan comes together.

Me too! It was a good feeling today!

 

[Radom Guy]

Just an update in case anyone is curious how everything worked out after a little more reloading. Despite the off center flash holes of many of the Fiocchi and Aguila brass, they actually were not so bad. They did give some resistance decapping, but I found it to be manageable when decapping separately from the rest of the reloading on the progressive. Those were almost entirely my own once fired brass, by the way.

When I really started getting into some “mostly once fired” range 32 ACP brass, I discovered that there were three head stamps that were not worth keeping at all. S&B (Sellier & Bellot), Herters (S&B with a Herter’s head stamp), and GECO all had incredibly difficult primers to remove. Maybe they were actually crimped? but I did not notice that. On top of the decapping difficulties of these three, only a small percentage of those brands could actually accept my small pistol primers (using Federal SPP’s as well as the Argentinian brand Servicios y Aventuras). If I was actually able to get a primer in, it would not fully insert - it would hang out around 0.050” or so. I quickly got into the habit of pulling the case and checking the head stamp if it gave me any problem with decapping. Every single one was one of those three brands. I easily made the decision to toss them in the trash. Out of 200 or so cases, I probably threw away around 15 or 20. Not desirable to waste brass, but not a terrible ratio, either. One good thing is that once I use up and shoot all this brass (around 800 to 1,000 cases) and tumble it to use again, almost all of the problem brass will be out of the picture.

Now here’s even more boring details if anyone wants to bother reading this part. Those S&B brass were so bad that I ended up actually bending (breaking) the decapping pin from my Lee Universal Decapping Die. That was surprising. Since I still did not want to use my 32 ACP resize and decap die for this step, as I want to more easily isolate the problem brass, my workaround was to use my 45acp resize/decap die. This way I knew that there was plenty of room in the 45 die for the 32 ACP brass to not get sized, and room to move around if the flash hole was not centered. It worked GREAT.

So again, this post/reply is only for those who might be curious about this, or for those who are so bored and have nothing to do but listen to my reloading antics.

Thanks again folks!

 

[Tilos]

Just an update in case anyone is curious how everything worked out after a little more reloading. Despite the off center flash holes of many of the Fiocchi and Aguila brass, they actually were not so bad. They did give some resistance decapping, but I found it to be manageable when decapping separately from the rest of the reloading on the progressive. Those were almost entirely my own once fired brass, by the way.
Thanks again folks!

Thanks for the update.
.

 

[Radom Guy]

Thanks for the update.
.

You bet!