Decision-making While under Vehicular Assault

[crofrog]

NOTE: I'M NOT A LAWYER

So, at what point, then, does a person who carries a concealed pistol have the right to make citizen's arrest?

Arresting someone is very dangerous and is in my humble opinion counter productive to my survival. Are there times I'd consider doing it, perhaps, but they are _very_ limited.

Thus motivation to stop the attack, and requiring one to exit the vehicle? To what extent does one have to "retreat"?

I'd always retreat if I have the option to do so safely, and that is in fact the way I've had duty to retreat explained to me before. You only have to retreat if retreating doesn't place you in further jeopardy.

To what extent does one have to permit subjection to risk of permanent bodily harm or death?

To the point where a reasonable peer would feel that he was in threat of death or great bodily harm. The defining points for whether deadly force is usable are intent, ability and opportunity.

* Does he have the intent to cause death or GBH?
* Does he have the ability to cause death or GBH to you? This can be weapons or disparity of force such as him having multiple friends or the ability to harm you. With your back condition there is no longer a "fair" fight in the eye's of the law for you IMHO.
* Does he have the opportunity to cause death or GBH?

Does an elderly man with a concealed weapon have a lower standard than a healthy, 21-year-old who is a 3rd degree Black belt in TKD, and who has a concealed weapon? Yes.

Agreed.

The age and physical ability w/o the weapon still weighs. If he looses the weapon, the elderly man is dead. The young healthy man still has his TKD, youth and health.

That's the way I see it.

The answer, it seems, is not so simple. In fact, it is very cloudy and leaves one to the mercy of a prosecutor's whim.

I feel that with almost all self defense situations you are at the whim of the police, DA and jury.

Or, does the problem persist that I am not sufficiently informed as to the standard? We come back full circle to the need to ask an attorney what is the standard?

You should _defiantly_ consult an attorney and I'd personally ask a cop or DA you can trust who they wouldn’t want to see in court and go talk to him, and find out how to contact him in the event of you defending yourself.

One point is clear--that the state of Michigan considers his action to be a felony, means that the law, even if over-stepped to some degree on my part, would still be more on my side than on the side of the one who caused it.

I believe there is something like the competing harms which does help put the law on your side.

But, do two wrongs make a right? And is that the rationale behind the common law V. statute and the requirement to retreat where and when possible?

Like I said I'd always retreat if safe to do so. Sure smiting the bad guy and standing your ground might feel good for your pride, but your wallet will surely suffer.


One thing that is relevant to keep in mind at all times. You have to win the fight to even begin to consider the post-fight. If I believe the safest way for me to win the fight is do something illegal, I will.


I'd like to go over the reasons you can use deadly force again and break it down to your situation.

Intent: By ramming your truck I feel he clearly showed an intent to cause you harm.

Ability: He was at the wheel of a deadly weapon. Combine this with the fact that your back injury leaves you more susceptible to damage from impacts; he has taken a situation that a normal fit male would be authorized to use deadly force in, and escalated it beyond a shadow of doubt.

He also stepped out of the car looking for a fight, considering a one on one fight could cause you more easily than most death or great bodily harm, I feel you where justified there as well.


Opportunity: He clearly was in a place where he could have caused death or great bodily harm.

If you would have killed him I personally feel it would have been justified. However remember what the first thing I said in this post was, I'm not a lawyer.

Chris

 

[Geno]

Legal Update: MI Gov. Signed New Law--No more retreat!!!

Wow, could that have held an ugly potential earlier for this and other similar BGs? That is to say, I guess, does this new law change the equation for self-defense in Michigan? You better believe so. But, does it change what people perceive to be moral duty (no legal) to retreat? So, the days of Michigan's common law of self-defense ONLY in your home are GONE! Go figure. A Democrat governor signed this law.

Let's just hope and pray that people in society continue to take The High Road. While the common law is gone, and a statute replaces it, we cannot remove ourselves from ethical accountability to retreat wherever and whenever one may do so without compromising life and limb, as was precisely the case in the incident which prompted this thread.

Doc2005

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

parental instincts

no joke about how kid might change how we act. when mine was 3 months old we were out and some kids(nice kids) threw a pack of fire crackers. they were not aware of me and kid and we were outside range where what they did was a threat. however my first reaction was instictive and ugly.as proof they were nice kids as i was calming down the became aware of me and were sorry and apologised. but man i'd never reacted like that before.

 

[KnightHawk67]

Great post Doc2005,

I got a chuckle when you said he hit your Wrangler with his itty-bitty car. I got the mental image of my tow ball on the back of my pickup goring his radiator & locking him to my rear bumper. Just tow him to the nearest police station.

Glad everyone is o.k. and I hope the idiot other driver gets the book tossed at him.

 

[Srigs]

Good job and you handled it very well. The young adults will have a big talking to with the police and then with Mom and Dad. It will be very costly for their insurance for a very long time!

At that age, Dad would have frightened me more.

 

[Geno]

Closing Update. Bad Guy Found Guilty.

This afternoon the officer in charge of the situation called to advise me that,

"We convicted the man who assaulted you in that accident."

Wow! Shock of shock! That fast!?!? The LEO was, today, as he was before, so professional. I was shocked that he called to update me. Totally unexpected!

The person who assaulted us was found guilty of misdemeanor (causing) and fleeing an accident.

For our part, we are satisfied. He (the bad guy) did not walk. He was found guilty. God bless our hardworking LEOs! Thanks to all of you who work so darned hard to protect us!

So, who do you all think--should I send the officers involved and the dispatcher a thank-you letter? Or is that just weird?

Appreciatively,

Dr. Eugene R. Shaw
(Doc2005)

 

[pax]

Of course it's weird. Saying thank you is a lost art.

Do it anyway. It'll make someone's day for sure.

(Oh~! And congratulations to you for getting through that whole thing. Gotta be a real relief.)

pax

I can live for two months on a good compliment. -- Mark Twain

 

[Valkman]

I'm really glad to hear they got him and it all worked with no one getting hurt.

I'd send the letters and tell the cops how you feel, and I think they'd appreciate it.

As for being disabled, I do believe "we" have a different situation. I am not fleeing from anyone whether I want to or not, so I may shoot in a situation where someone who can run would not. I also think this would be justified in court.

 

[Hardware]

Doc,
Glad you and your family came out relatively unscathed. More good news is a conviction on the bad guy.

Having been intentionally rear ended once I now keep a trailer ball in my receiver hitch at all times. A locking hitch pin makes sure it stays there. If someone wants to rear end me they will need to get past 8 inches of steel before they get to play bumper tag. (Mr. Radiator, meet Mr. Trailer ball.) Not legal in all localities, but a great deterrent and I've come out from a store and found plastic grill fragments dangling from it once. Better their grill than my bumper.

 

[Jim March]

Do we know WHY this clown went all wiggy?

 

[Geno]

Jim, no, I don't the "why". Just P.O.'d I guess

For what it's worth, the guy denied it to the end when the judge say guilty. I hope he learns though. I won't hold me breath, but I will pray for him and his family.

Thanks all. Your support means more than I could put into words. I am very appreciative of so many people, not the least of which is also THR for the ability to find common sense.

And yes, I will send letters to the officers, the dispatcher and even to the sheriff. He too should get some good news, and it would be good for him to have record of CCW holders who hold their cool while under attack. Good for him to use perhaps even in his current political run for senate.

Doc2005

 

[Bubbles]

I will send letters to the officers, the dispatcher and even to the sheriff.

+1 on sending a copy to the Sheriff, because it's very likely he'll put a copy in the deputies's and dispatcher's personnel files, which could make a difference come promotion time.

 

[Smurfslayer]

+2

I will definitely concede that by and large PO's get exposed to more than their fair share of negative aspects of society. When the law dictates you should involve the pros, you generally want their assistance and without delay. A couple of quick emails or letters noting that you were satisfied with their customer service will go a long way. Everybody is ready and willing to lodge a complaint - me included. Few are willing to issue an 'addaboy' or thank you.

I did just this for a local officer who helped me out on a larceny case. The thief was a real piece of work, walking off with thousands of dollars of an elderly person's money - a chunk of her life savings. I made darn sure that letter made it's way to the higher ups.

 

[kengrubb]

Any situation you survive is good. If you don't have to shoot anyone, that's even better. That said, I will respectfully offer a few critiques FWIW.

Whether your vehicle was off on the shoulder, in a lane of traffic, or up on the curb, stationary vehicles are sometimes a magnet for moving vehicles. Count the number of times you've ever seen a police dashboard camera video of a stopped vehicle getting smashing by a passing vehicle. Waiting for the police, a tow truck, or whatever to arrive you are safer outside the vehicle standing up on the curb and far enough back that your vehicle would not harm or kill you and your passengers standing with you were the vehicle struck.

Also, should the other driver return, you have the advantage OUTSIDE a vehicle. Fighting from inside a vehicle puts you at a disadvantage. Now it could be argued that if the other driver were to return you would be safer in your vehicle because you could make an escape in your vehicle--assuming yours was still safely drivable. However, I would tend to think that once the other driver fled and reasonably presumed you had called the cops, he wasn't gonna return.

I suppose it's personal preference whether to tell the 911 dispatcher you're armed or not. Once officers arrived on scene, definitely I would at that point tell 'em I had a license to carry and did have it on me. Then add that while you were concerned for your safety, you never drew.

One tactical flub on your part, IMHO. When the dispatcher told you to "secure the pistols", I would have simply told her OK. As you said, you never even drew let alone fired or reholstered. They are plenty secure in your holster. Dispatcher telling you to remove magazines and unload 'em is out of line. Suppose the idiot had returned? Now what are you supposed to do that you NEED a gun but it's unloaded?

When the cops arrive, it's usually a bit less risky for them to see a person standing outside of a vehicle. They can clearly see a persons hands.

Finally, I would not have offered for them to take possession of the guns. If they feel it's necessary because someone is really jumpy, they'll tell you.

My 2 cents worth of help.

 

[Gillster]

Quote:
I will send letters to the officers, the dispatcher and even to the sheriff.


+1 on sending a copy to the Sheriff, because it's very likely he'll put a copy in the deputies's and dispatcher's personnel files, which could make a difference come promotion time.

+3 Yup, I'd send a thank you. I sent one to the local DPS station because of how professional I thought the young trooper who pulled me over was, especially considering I was coming home from the range and my wallet/CHL were still in my range bag. Anyway, I recieved a thanks back from the troopers local commander and from someone at the state level for taking the time to thank them. Feel goods all around.

Chris

 

[dfaugh]

I will send letters to the officers, the dispatcher and even to the sheriff.

I would definitely do this. Beside the fact that YOU acted 100% appropriately, it sounds like the dispatcher and the officers did as well. AND, they got a conviction, which with our legal system, can be more difficult than it should be.

With all the "cop-bashing" that goes on (and I've been accused of this myself, but no one seems to realize its directed at individual officers, in individual circumstances.) its great to see someone ginving an "attaboy" to the officers involved.

Personally, I've never been treated less than fairly (and sometimes MORE than fairly) by any of the local LEOs. I have GREAT respect for the job they do. Kudos to the guys that helped you out, and took care of you in your time of need.

P.S. Unlike some others, I agree that making your guns "safe" was an OK call by the dispatcher. as you mention, you could have had one ready to fire in short notice, so not a big deal.

 

[Geno]

.. Oops...I did update it.

 

[kungfuhippie]

I am surprised that they only got him on a misdemeanor. I first thought that he took a plea deal to get a lighter charge. This is the type of situation that can't be avoided, where someone goes off for no reason.
This was a great thread to read-happy ending and all.

 

[Pitt762x54r]

First off: very glad it worked out well. You handled the situation perfectly.

making the guns safe: Any time you handle them outside the holster you are making them much less safe. I wouldn't have touched them unless the officer on site asked me to.

Why he hit you: I don't know. I had a lady hit me from behind at a stop light, lay on the horn, and give me the finger. Who hnows why.

Letter to the officers: Always a good idea when someone does a good job. Not just for LEO but any sales or customer service I work with as well.

11 reloads: 11 reloads!! Seems like a lot to me, but I would rather have too much and not need it. If your gun jams you can always throw the mags at him.

(Wait, it's a Glock? nevermind, no jams there)


Kids in the car: As soon as he rammed me I would have been out of there. Getting him for assault would be great but my main focus is safety. Once I have that I will call the cops.


Brian

 

[kungfuhippie]

Kids in the car: As soon as he rammed me I would have been out of there. Getting him for assault would be great but my main focus is safety. Once I have that I will call the cops.

That isn't always an option. A small car can out drive an SUV an so running doesn't seem like it was an option. Most cars have governors to prevent excessive speed. most cars have that set at 100+ mph, many trucks and suvs have it at 90 mph. There are many factors to take into consideration. Yes, IMHO getting info, etc. would be less important than getting safe.

 

[Geno]

pitt762X54r:

The officer wanted for me to take out the ammo from the pistols and set the magazines on the dash, then return the pistol to the holster (per the dispatcher). That was before he arrived.

Doc2005

 

[crankshop1000]

* Passed in the House (90 to 17) on June 27, 2006, to establish that a law-abiding person who is attacked in any place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat, and can “stand his or her ground” and meet force with force, including deadly force if necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. See also Senate Bill 1046, which places the "castle docrine" regarding home defense in law. [Vote Details and Comments]
* Signed by Gov. Jennifer Granholm on July 18, 2006.

Line

According to my CPL instructor Mich is indeed a "castle doctrine" state which includes anywhere that you have a legal right to be (including a vehicle).In other words there is no duty to retreat. Also you complied with the law which requires you to disclose your CPL to law enforcement. All in all you did good with a positive outcome.Michigan drivers (I live in S.E.MI) are among the rudest and most confrontational I have encountered anywhere.

 

[Geno]

Crankshop1000:

You are correct that S.E. Michigan drivers are rude, itching for a car-fight and perpetually borderline psychotic. Some of the offensive driving cases that I have witnessed have nearly caused accidents. It absolutely amazes me, that in contemporary America, when firearms defense is finally being acknowledged as being not merely legitimate, but moreover at time necessary, that these people persist in their potentially deadly games of one-sided, vehicular "chicken".

When I drive to my neurosurgeon's office in Ohio, I am always pleased by how courteous most Ohio drivers are. Of course, there are the occasional morons who ride my bumper with their 18-wheeler because I too won't violate the speed limit, but when they eventually give up and pass, 99% of those people have been non-Ohio plates.

Doc2005

 

[Headless]

You walk around constantly with 187 rounds in 11 magazines plus one in the hole plus another 12 for your BUG......man you're just barely short of 200 rounds...or just over it... plus 2 guns strapped to you? LOL. Did you put all 13 magazines on your dashboard? I'd love a picture of that. Please post a picture of how you manage to store 11 magazines on your body, concealed on a day to day basis..

 

[ZeSpectre]

this is still a good thread to read