Defending another w/ your knife...

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seeker_two

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Imagine that one of these scenarios is occurring:

1. You are entering your home & find your SO on the floor being attacked by a BG. For some reason, you don't have your CCW on you, but you do have your EDC/SD knife.

2. You are leaving a local store. You see a stranger w/ a knife/club approaching you getting ready to attack you. For some reason, you don't have your CCW on you, but you do have your EDC/SD knife.

Questions:

1. Would you use your knife to fight the attacker?

2. Would you be legally/morally justified in using your knife to "blindside" the attacker by attacking first?

3. If you do use your knife, what techniques would you use on the attacker?

4. Would your plan be to disable the attacker (target eyes, ears, arms, etc.), or would you be going for more lethal points (throat, large arteries, etc.)?


Thanks in advance....

(Edited to clarify JW's question)
 
In most places if the use of force is legal, the tool you use is irrelevant. In situation one, I would use whatever force I thought I needed to stop the attack. I don't know if I'd default to the knife. Is it obvious I have to kill the intruder to save my SO?

In the second situation, I'm out of there. Across the street, backing off, whatever. You weren't clear, is the stranger with the club attacking me or just moving in my direction?

Jeff
 
How is the SO being attacked, with or without weapons?
Is she taking damage by blows with his fist? Or is he holding her down on the floor?

Answers are dependant on the circumstances found at the time.

I don't know anyone is getting ready to attack unless they have made their intentions known. I'll prepare for their potential in posture and movements away from the potential. If he follows, he has made his intentions pretty clear. If he continues on his own path, his intentions were not clear but initially presumed to be directed at me.

Preemptively striking another based on supposition alone will be a problem. Unless he has met the criteria for self defense, you are not justified.

You see him with a club coming toward you. He has the means and possible opportunity but no motive has been established that he intends to harm you. Hence, no lethal SD is warranted until his motive becomes clear either through verbalization ofthreats or he raises the pipe to strike you.

Neither scenario as described warrants my pulling lethal force from the pocket, yet.

More info is needed.

Brownie
 
How is the SO being attacked, with or without weapons?

I left that one intentionally vague b/c:

1. The BG is in your home attacking your SO. (castle doctrine)
2. Even if he wasn't using a weapon, there's no guarantee that the BG doesn't have one on him.

I don't know anyone is getting ready to attack unless they have made their intentions known.

Intentions are known. They're attacking you.

I'm glad that you're responding to this one. Since you do a lot of training & teaching on this, I'm really interested in your views & knowledge. Thanks.
 
seeker_two,

I'm not ready to indisciminately kill an attacker based on the castle doctrine. If I used my knife or not, would depend on if I thought I could get him off my wife with less force. I'm a big guy, 6'2", 240, if the attacker is using fists, I would most likely pull him off her before I contemplated a weapon. He'd have to be a pretty big guy before I felt my only option to save her life was to stab him in the base of the skull with my Emerson CQC-8.

In the second scenario, I would most likely retreat if there was a place to go. If I had no retreat, and I was absolutely certain the attack was coming, I would initiate the attack, it's always better to have the initiative. What technique I would use would depend on the attackers size in realtion to my own, exactly what he was armed with and if he was intoxicated. I have seen a lot of drunks put themselves in very bad tactical positions, even some that would justify the use of deadly force, but it was obvious that they were actually incapable of effectively carrying out the attack due to their intoxication.

I think that there are certain circumstances where you would be legally and morally justified in attacking first.

Jeff
 
1. most certainly. He unlawfully entered my home, attacked a family member, the risks of doing such must have crossed his mind. Not taking a preemptive strike without warning him first could potentially get everyone in my family killed.

2. I would run like hell.
 
In theory,

1. Would you use your knife to fight the attacker?
Yes. But I'd never marry a girl who had low enough standards to actually like me.

2. Would you be legally/morally justified in using your knife to "blindside" the attacker by attacking first?
Yes. In defense of a loved one who is being threatened with death or great bodily injury.

Not sure how I'd answer the other two :)
 
Got it.

First scenario: Same answer as Jeff. If he hasn't seen me, doesn't know of my presence and I have surprise, he's going to sleep by the time he feels the sleeper. I want to control his head and breathing. Controlling the head allows me to keep his body from harming me as I control where it is moving [ control the head and the body follows ]. Controlling his briething will get his attention immediately away from the SO, I want that and I want that right now.

If he has seen me but I'm able to reach him as he does and turns to me, I have accomplished the primary [ getting him off the SO ] by my mere presence. Then he has to deal with me. If he turns with a knife threatening, if I'm close I'm going for it, I don't suggest or recommend this to be followed by anyone else.

My training unarmed will prevent him from likely getting a core shot into me and I'm going to go for his hand to control knowing I'm likely going to get cut. No time perhaps to even think about pulling the knife.

If I am just entering the home and hear a struggle I'm drawing the blade as I get through the door. I'm going to be ready to deal with possible multiples immediately that may be armed with guns, knives, bats, whatever and are a threat until proven otherwise.

If it were available before getting to the attack in the house, I'm going to grab one of the guns stashed about the house and ready to go. It's all going to be fluid, with forethought, the way my house is set up, If the probelm is upstairs in the bedroom in your scenario, I'm going to be able to get to two guns before hitting the stairwell where the swat tactics will kick in relative fatal funnels, stairwell tactics, though very dangerous under any circumstances, and go for it gun in each hand.

If I can't get to the guns, it's happening in the next room, knife may be drawn and ready for multiples. My SO's struggles and the amount of urgency I hear, all the sensories will be fast paced while on the move.

I've been attacked unarmed from behind, while doing his buddy H2H. Had a gov45acp crossdraw and two knives on me. Never pulled any of it, or thought of them, and proceeded to give the guy that hit me from behind a new face. Later, the next day, I had my jaw wired for 6 weeks.

I mention it as it is possible one will forget they have weapons about them when in the heat of the moment, especially startled, hit from behind. That guy sent me back a good ten feet, I saw the stars, the blackness, almost out but not quite. Never went down, kept enough balance to stay up staggered. Right back in the fray with no thought to weapons.

Can't say for sure, considering past experiences where time is of the essence and danger close that I wouldn't just rush into the equation without thinking about weapons until I was forced to think about it by an outside stimulus. Could also be too late to get to it once the thought is there.

There are a lot of variables, distance, time, urgency, stealth to the problem or not, it will be fluid, and hard to guess where it will lead, but it's important to remember you may not even think to access it immediately when the SO is right there being harmed. I want my body on his body and him to now concentrate on me, not her.

If I stab him from behind [ he hasn't seen me ] and I run in and stab him in the neck, to get him off of her, and he has a knife to her throat or near her at all when I do that, she stands a good chance of taking one of his shots, maybe several while you are giving him his. His attention may be to move to you and cut her while moving to address you. I am not enamored with the idea of damaging him but having to wait a split second for him to react.

If he has turned to face you[ knows you are present before you can take him ], he may hold her a hostage threatening her for you to give stop your advancing, knife or no.

Then you are into more than the question actually asked so I'll stop there.

Second scenario: If I know I'm under attack [ and alone ] by a pipe, one person, I will likely stay unarmed for the moment. I've had people come at me with pipes and a few bats at times. Never pulled the gun or knife on me at the time when it was one on one. Never thought about them. Didn't have time.

Good thing too. If I had gone for the gun or knife I would have been clocked doing so and taken major damage. If it's up close and personal as it starts, relying on a weapon like a knife against a club or pipe gives him an advantage to my thinking. You pull the smaller weapon, he has a weapon that outdistances yours in reach, you are a threat now but he still has the avantage. Though the knife hand can be used to parry, I want both available to me immediately to grab, move, and parry.

I'm not prone to trying to fill my hand with a weapon I guess when it's here and now. Given some minimal time [ say a few seconds ] and distance I'll run, if alone in your scenario. No gun on me? I'll run if given the chance. I'm not that fast but he's gonna have to catch me. If I'm leaving the local store, there will be cars to get between you, people about or at least inside at the register who may see whats going on while you play cat and mouse around the cars. You don't have to run far or for long to get objects between you.

None of the above is a suggestion for anyone else to attempt anything mentioned or described in this thead. Others options will vary depending on many factors and each needs to understand and decide their own course of action based on those factors, hopefully with forethought and not hindsight.


Brownie
 
Situation 1. I would use any means available to me. I would prob try to kill the perp. Adreniline would prob make hard to just wound him.

Situation 2. Run til' I can't run no mo'! If they catch me, I fight like hell. I'm 6'2" 275LBS. I'm a better fighter than runner.
 
1) Yes, no hesitation. I'd rather go to jail then have to answer to my son why his Mother is dead.
2) Run. If backed into a corner, I'd fight with my knife, teeth, boots, beerbottles, whatever I could find.
 
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