Knife defense

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Well, as a 20 year corrections officer I can tell about this actual event.
An inmate taped a wedge shaped shank in each of his hands.He waited till the first CO entered the pod then proceeded from behind to cut the guys neck to shreds.He died later after running screaming about 75 yards, gushing.The next CO entered unaware of the first and was hit in the shoulder and started hauling ass thereby causing the other hits to be at arms length into the shoulders.
He lived without life changing damage, just by a little quicker
reaction and by not having that lethal neck hit. Just a story.
 
Bobson said:
I thought it was the other way around:

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Is it really that dangerous for me to draw a gun if someone attempts to attack me with a knife? Obviously a knife is a deadly weapon and serious danger exists, but it seems like I would have a pretty clear advantage, even if I couldn't grow the distance between us.
Click to expand...

Bobson, you are looking into being a police officer and as has been said it is this mentality that has gotten many people killed or seriously injured, many of which have been police officers due to the nature of the job. Within a distance of about 20 feet, if you are trying to draw on a man charging you with a knife, you WILL lose most of the time.

The other posts have given good advice as to how to handle being attacked, but thinking that having a gun on your body automatically gives you an advantage over a knife-wielding threat in any situation can get you killed fast.
 
If you try to draw a gun against an attacker with a knife, expect to be cut/killed.
Click to expand...

This is one of the biggest FARCES in the edged weapons / martial arts community. It is a fallacy. It assumes a huge number of suspect conditions, such as:
* The gun wielder is unaware he is about to be attacked
* The gun wielder is un proficient with his draw
* The gun wielder is incapable of making shots under stress
* The knife wielder is highly proficient
* The knife wielder has the element of surprise.

Some, all, or NONE of those may be true. Certainly, you can easily use a knife to kill someone with a gun if that person is unaware they are about to be set upon - the same thing is true of tire irons and even a pencil.

There are numerous demonstrations of people who can indeed hit the knife wielder with a gun before he closes the 'magical' 21 feet when they are alert and expecting an attack.

Furthermore, many styles of draw teach the defensive placement or staging of the weak arm, as well as backpedaling ect.

Before anyone runs out and starts some kind of whacky kung fu system, why don't we all just take a deep breath, stay sharp on out situational awareness, and practice our defensive draw.
 
I have a simple tactic for all very close encounters. My wife, who has no military training and little range time, she can do it. What I do is hold out my off hand in a stop gesture, and it does literally mean stop, but this prevents the attacker from getting any closer while my right hand draws.

I can draw in the blink of an eye, and when I do it reflexively out of surprise, it seems crazy fast. Still, if the guy were close enough, I expect to get cut, but getting a booboo on your hand or wrist, that is a whole lot different from getting disemboweled or losing an eye. After the draw, I don't extend the pistol, I hold it next to my torso so it can't be easily taken away, and with my off hand still extended, I fire, point shooting "from the hip" although the pistol is actually closer to my ribcage. If there are no obstacles, I may back up carefully while doing this. All of this will look better in court too when you think about it --the entire tactic is purely defensive and even looks that way to anyone observing, especially if you are backing up. This looks like you are trying to get away and really don't want to shoot (which you should be).

Most folks can't fight with a knife. H. Gracie told this to a buddy of mine that lived in Brazil and trained with the man himself for a year. We just don't know how in general, a lost skill, firearms replaced 'em for the most part. So for me, a simple defensive plan is all I need. Biggest thing about knives in a fight is they can do much more serious damage up close real fast, and in the hands of a real knife fighter, I guess you are screwed if you let them get too close. You want to protect arteries and organs first and foremost, and you want to get the upper hand too. You may end up getting cut, but sacrificing your off hand to buy you a second for the draw seems okay to me. Chances are you won't feel it for a bit anyway. Even if they cut off your whole hand, you won't bleed out fast enough to die (although you may pass out or get woozy if you are one of those...). Take off your gun belt and turn it into a tourniquet, presto.

In addition to this, my wife, she carries a 649 revolver. Thinking about getting the Crimson Trace grips for her as both a deterrent and aiming aid; although point shooting is 95% of this tactic, the laser has and can deter the attacker, and in the heat of a very close encounter, it can aid in aiming.

Hope this helps. It is really the best I could think of... I assume anyone attacking me is armed and can close the distance fast, so I use the same simple tactic. If my target is farther away, I complete the draw by bringing the shooting hand up and forming a two hand stance. All nice and fluid. This also works for when you take fire and must return fire fast --you can get two rounds off WHILE completing the draw --one when it clears the holster and another as you extend. Again, it all happens in a split second.

Having one simple tactic that works great for most public encounters is ideal for most of us. Although this might not work everytime, it will work most of the time, and it is very simple to learn and employ. It is also natural, if attacked and trying to draw, many folks instinctively put out a hand anyway almost as if saying, "Wait, I'm not ready!"

Try it out. Get a rubber knife or make a cardboard one and try it. Make sure to unload your pistol first! Then try it out with the wife or a friend or whatever. You'll see it works pretty well, and in fact, so well I can't really think of another way to respond.

Whatever you do, don't try disarm procedures unless you know what you are doing and have done this in training. Especially if armed. I'd only do a disarm technique if I were very close and unarmed and had no other choice.
 
Maple_City_Woodsman said:
This is one of the biggest FARCES in the edged weapons / martial arts community. It is a fallacy. It assumes a huge number of suspect conditions, such as:
* The gun wielder is unaware he is about to be attacked
* The gun wielder is un proficient with his draw
* The gun wielder is incapable of making shots under stress
* The knife wielder is highly proficient
* The knife wielder has the element of surprise.

Some, all, or NONE of those may be true. Certainly, you can easily use a knife to kill someone with a gun if that person is unaware they are about to be set upon - the same thing is true of tire irons and even a pencil.

There are numerous demonstrations of people who can indeed hit the knife wielder with a gun before he closes the 'magical' 21 feet when they are alert and expecting an attack.

Furthermore, many styles of draw teach the defensive placement or staging of the weak arm, as well as backpedaling ect.

Before anyone runs out and starts some kind of whacky kung fu system, why don't we all just take a deep breath, stay sharp on out situational awareness, and practice our defensive draw.
Click to expand...
Fact is if they are close, and forget about 21', say 7', and they have their hands on the weapon and you don't, you don't have much choice. You ARE at the disadvantage, and they CAN slice and dice you pretty quick if you don't keep 'em away, even if they are in the majority and never used a knife outside the kitchen or gang hideout. So the first thing is to keep them away --you may have to sacrifice that hand like I said.

Element of surprise... I can't say I've ever been attacked by a serious attacker where I saw the attacker coming from any distance. In almost all cases, the attacker or attackers got close to me first and sometimes deceptively --I didn't think they were a danger until they were three feet away. When I was about 17 or 18, I was almost killed by around 10 attackers and it was not only a surprise, it was an ambush.

Yeah, if you can think of another tactic besides backing up, off hand extended, and draw to the hip, I'd like to hear it.
 
If you're really worried, practice some Kali.

Most folks don't realize just how deadly knives really are. I'd consider guns to truly have no advantage over knives than distance. Especially when you look at the survival rate of shooting victims.

It's scary easy to create irreparable damage with a 3" or longer knife that can make someone unconscious in in just a few seconds and dead not long after that. And you really don't have to be all that proficient with them.
 
The single best option is to take some pre-existing FOF training for dealing with a knife. This will really show you what does or doesn't work.

The biggest issue I see with many posts in this thread, e.g. Strykervet, is that the posters are assuming you can see the knife and the attacker is coming at you knife drawn, like some sort of maniac.

In reality the most dangerous situation is someone approaching you and potentially getting close enough to you to make physical contact before drawing the knife. They entangle you, hit you, knock you around, grab you...then the knife comes out.

You can't shoot someone just for being too close, generally. That is why you need something that treats all potential unknown contacts as threats with knives or other dangerous weapons.

Southnarc's ECQC and Edged Weapons Overview courses do just that. You practice a system of verbal/positioning skills under pressure, that deter advancement and put you in an advantageous position. If that fails you treat threats who look "unarmed" as being potentially armed, and use unarmed skills as necessary unless you perceive a lethal threat, at which point the fact that you have, previously, controlled their ability to access their weapon, and/or hindered their mobility and orientation, will come in handy as you choose the right time to access your weapon.

BTW in response to Strykervet's point here:
Try it out. Get a rubber knife or make a cardboard one and try it. Make sure to unload your pistol first! Then try it out with the wife or a friend or whatever.

I unequivocally DISAGREE with this. Way too many accidents occur trying to do FOF with an "unloaded" gun. Just get a $20-40 blue or orange trainer gun and problem solved!

Not trying to pick on you Stryker, sorry bud. :D
 
take some pre-existing FOF training for dealing with a knife. This will really show you what does or doesn't work.
Click to expand...

Good advice for anyone who hasn't done this. It separates the fantasy from fact for the individual.

Heck, you don't even need a rubber knife. Get a big marker and give it a try with a white long sleeve shirt on. Then give it a try with a hard practice knife and check the bruises if you don't accept the marks on the shirt. Much better than having to deal with the real thing to illustrate the "point". BTDT, got full "marks".
 
hso, thanks. Basically I would say "try to get some structured training" although doing it with friends is an option too. The issue with friends, acquaintances, and unstructured training (or even suboptimal structured formal training) is that even as an illustrative tool, there is often too little realism to really illustrate much except "man, it's hard to stop a guy with a knife." You really get good feedback when you structure it right but that's the trick so I say pay if you can afford it; as you said anyone who hasn't done this will learn a LOT.
 
I was in charge of training for about three years on a 100 officer department. We were fortunate to have some very sharp people on the training side of things (and that little department, some years later had former members as chiefs of police in ten different cities in the state).

As far as knife training, the seven meter drill was what we taught and it opened the eyes of everyone that went through it. Put simply the very, very few who were able to draw and fire their service weapon before the knife assailant reached them... were only able to do so by running backwards like a pro defenseman covering a wide receiver.

Argue back and forth about whether the armed individual will "win" such a confrontation.... What needs to be remembered is that any knife wound can cripple or kill the guy with the gun. The crazy with the knife may or may not survive his/her wounds, but every officer (and by extension any armed citizen) really needs to go home to their families at the end of the day in one piece... anything else is unacceptable.

Remember that I'm not talking about anyone skilled with a knife (if you encounter a skilled individual you'll be in terrible difficulty and never, repeat never, see it coming until it's far too late to react in time). Any idiot with a rusty, dull blade can still do terrible damage (and unlike the movies, if your hand gets slashed you may lose the use of it as a result, no matter how the attack ends...). Distance between you and someone possibly armed with a knife is critical and constant awareness and vigilance can be the difference between a satisfactory outcome or disaster (made even worse if there's a camera nearby).

Knife defense is serious business and believing that a firearm cancels out that threat is probably not the way to go. Your weapon and good survival tactics may get you home, but it's still a crapshoot and I don't want to be the gambler...


After writing this I realized that some hard practical advice might be in order... Here's the rules I lived by regarding knives or anything similar... If the knife user is fifty feet away he/she is a problem but not an immediate one (unless they're near a potential victim...). If they approach, that critical seven meter distance then it's time to defend yourself by challenging at gunpoint (and preparing yourself to survive whatever comes). If they attack or try to shorten that seven meter distance it's time to respond with lethal force, period (and pray that you can put them all where they're needed until your assailant is down....). Remember as well that the human animal is terribly unpredictable. A killing wound (or wounds) may not keep a determined opponent from reaching you before they go down. You might actually have to outrun one after "killing shots" as crazy as that might seem. It's the stuff that nightmares are made of
 
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This is one of the biggest FARCES in the edged weapons / martial arts community. It is a fallacy. It assumes a huge number of suspect conditions, such as:
* The gun wielder is unaware he is about to be attacked
* The gun wielder is un proficient with his draw
* The gun wielder is incapable of making shots under stress
* The knife wielder is highly proficient
* The knife wielder has the element of surprise.

Some, all, or NONE of those may be true. Certainly, you can easily use a knife to kill someone with a gun if that person is unaware they are about to be set upon - the same thing is true of tire irons and even a pencil.

There are numerous demonstrations of people who can indeed hit the knife wielder with a gun before he closes the 'magical' 21 feet when they are alert and expecting an attack.

Furthermore, many styles of draw teach the defensive placement or staging of the weak arm, as well as backpedaling ect.

Before anyone runs out and starts some kind of whacky kung fu system, why don't we all just take a deep breath, stay sharp on out situational awareness, and practice our defensive draw.
Click to expand...


What can you see that allows you to shoot me?


100_1825.gif
 
How close have you ever let a stranger get to you? On the street, in a store, your work, or anywhere?


What can you see that allows you to shoot me?
Click to expand...

How about now?

100_1827.gif
 
If I were not a nice guy, with a very slight shift of my fingers that 4" of hair shaving sharp Fallkniven F1 would ruin a persons day.
 
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I don't do knife fights.
I have used a knife to stop a threat, more than once.

Thankfully, I was mentored well being raised and having spent time in some serious work...
I don't know much, just enough...so far, and having Lady Luck show up...

Survive the threat is the goal and there are "tools" that are "a" tool and not "the" tool.

The quicker folks recognize and accept this and add this to their "toolbox" the better off they will be.

s
 
This is one of the biggest FARCES in the edged weapons / martial arts community. It is a fallacy. It assumes a huge number of suspect conditions, such as:
* The gun wielder is unaware he is about to be attacked
* The gun wielder is un proficient with his draw
* The gun wielder is incapable of making shots under stress
* The knife wielder is highly proficient
* The knife wielder has the element of surprise.
Click to expand...

See post #12 since each of the 5 points above were not the case and still the officers I worked with "lost" the "fight".
 
You know, I've seen the videos where on a signal a fellow runs at another who stands there and draws. Sometimes the gunner wins, sometimes not.

So a few friends and I decided to give the test a "test". We found, that it all depends on the two folks involved. Some run fast, some slow. Some draw fast, some slow. Just for the heck of it we added another dimension.

The gunner moves. His choice sideways, backwards what ever. Here's what we found. If the gunner moves to increase the distance, thus time, even the slow to draw can fire multiple shots before the attacker reaches them.

Now who ever thought of being dynamic in ones positioning during an armed encounter. Oh yeah, a whole bunch of folks who survived them.
 
Check out the Tueler Drill--closing distance is 21 feet for a trained officer with a holstered side arm. The danger zone for a civilian with a concealed gun would be much more!
Doesn't matter in the real world as he will probably be less than 3 feet away before he gives away his intentions. Block, throat jab, eye poke or whatever works, move a step to the side, draw and point shoot till he hits the ground. Don't plan on one handgun bullet doing the trick.
 
The problem with the Tueller drill outside of illustrating a point is that isn't really how knife-attacks happen to civilians. Cops responding to a call, maybe, but both should train for responding to an "apparently" unarmed person closing distance steadily, which is a more multi-disciplinary problem than a maniacal knife-wielder closing rapidly from 7 yds.
 
jeepnik said:
You know, I've seen the videos where on a signal a fellow runs at another who stands there and draws. Sometimes the gunner wins, sometimes not.

So a few friends and I decided to give the test a "test". We found, that it all depends on the two folks involved. Some run fast, some slow. Some draw fast, some slow. Just for the heck of it we added another dimension.

The gunner moves. His choice sideways, backwards what ever. Here's what we found. If the gunner moves to increase the distance, thus time, even the slow to draw can fire multiple shots before the attacker reaches them.

Now who ever thought of being dynamic in ones positioning during an armed encounter. Oh yeah, a whole bunch of folks who survived them.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that the individual that is playing the victim knows what is going to happen. Compare that to a situation with the distractions we face in our everyday lives the results could vary drastically. With that said, it goes to show you how important situational awareness is if you want to survive.
 
I'm trained in Silat and these are some truisms

*Trained or not a knife in an attackers hand if formidable.
*You can not effectively run away from a person with a knife who has an agenda..
*Don't think because you got a badge and a .45 you have the ability be a superhero.
*Don't stay in the area trying to talk a person down..
*Shoot immediately...
*Not every shot will produce the coveted "one shot stop."
*It dos'nt take much to die from a knife wound. When an artery or respitory organ is tagged
*Shock is a killer, when arm flesh is peeled away; your body will go into shock.

Here you go..
Plenty to armchair quarterback about

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh44oh9wTL1t11XJKD
 
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