Knife defense

[Loosedhorse]

Some truisms:

Don't bring a gun to a knife fight.
If you try to defend yourself against a knife with bare hands, expect to be cut.
If you try to defend yourself against a knife with a knife, expect to be cut.
If you try to draw a gun against an attacker with a knife, expect to be cut/killed.

So, what's left?

I guess the central point of my question is: if an attacker comes at you with a knife, and you have a holstered gun, are you better served to try to parry with your off-hand and fire from retention ASAP; or to use both hands in a bare-handed knife defense eek until such time as you get an opportunity to draw (what would that opportunity look like?) or take the knife away from the attacker?

If "it depends" then on what precisely does it depend?

All opinions appreciated. Thanks.

 

[MachIVshooter]

My take? If the knife-wielder is already committed to the attack and too close to draw, best bet is to deflect the stabs/slices as best you can and try to gain control of the knife hand.

The upside is that few people know how to effectively employ a knife. The downside is that one doesn't really have to know how to use it to seriously injure someone.

Unfortunately, too, in a knife fight, the weapon does not mitigate physical strength like a gun does; Certainly tactics are important, but if your attacker has a substantial size/reach advantage, your odds of controlling the knife are not good.

I think the most important aspect is to not underestimate the lethal nature of the threat; Seems that's happened many times (especially with LEOs) who felt their gun gave them the upper hand. Inside of closing distance, it does not.

 

[dayhiker]

If you can not, "get off the X", fast enough to draw and fire . Or beat feet to create distance and/or place obstacles between you and your attacker to give you time to draw and fire. Then IMHO your are left with two choices.

You are left with the option to control then disable the knife arm ,then create distance to draw.

Or control the knife arm, and disable the attacker enough to create distance and draw.

 

[Fred Fuller]

It depends on what the threat is trying to do. Is this some kind of predatory violence, or is it social violence (monkey dance) with a weapon added? And if it's predatory violence, what kind of predatory violence is it?

If the threat just wants to injure or kill you on the spot (an assassin, in other words), and has any idea what he's doing, you're likely not to see the attack coming until it's too late to do much of anything about it. And chances are the attack will come stealthily from behind, or from the threat who just walked past you in a crowd and struck in passing without ever changing pace. Very few ordinary people have to worry too much about being the victim of some kind of real life Mack the Knife* though. Thank goodness...

If the threat just wants to rob you (resource predator), he's likely to menace you with the knife from conversational distance or closer. Again, if he knows what he's doing, you aren't likely to see the knife until he's too close for you to deploy a pistol.

If he wants to move you to a secondary crime scene (process predator), he's likely to try and control you physically from contact distance (arm around the shoulder or grip on bicep) and just prick you with the mostly hidden blade to let you know its there. To the disinterested passerby, it will look like some kind of hug or other contact between friends. Again, too close/too late to deploy a pistol in defense, more than likely. And no matter what happens at Crime Scene #1, it's preferable to going meekly along to Crime Scene #2. Process predators are not nice people.**

In a weapon-enhanced version of the monkey dance (social violence), you're more likely to get the dojo demonstration model of someone flourishing a blade from several feet away as they come toward you. How far away they are will dictate what you have time to do, but chances are they will be too close (Tueller drill***, anyone?) for you to draw on them. Best bet here is to avoid the monkey dance in the first place.

Far as I can tell, if you encounter someone intent on predatory violence, the odds are pretty good you're going to have to go to hands before you get the chance - or make the chance - to go to guns. If your default response is to try and draw on a knife-armed assailant at contact range, you're in trouble most likely. He probably still has a hand free too, to foul your draw. If you're going to go after the knife arm, probably it's best done with both hands without worrying about trying to draw just then.

Have you trained at this? If not, why not? Once again, my own limited experience and training says Southnarc (http://shivworks.com/) is a great resource, among others who teach similar things.

* The song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEllHMWkXEU&feature=related , Bobby Darin cover
The story - http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2155/whats-the-story-behind-mack-the-knife

** http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/milwaukee-satanic-ritual-657329 is just one recent story I ran across

*** http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

 

[jahwarrior]

Some truisms:

Don't bring a gun to a knife fight.
If you try to defend yourself against a knife with bare hands, expect to be cut.
If you try to defend yourself against a knife with a knife, expect to be cut.
If you try to draw a gun against an attacker with a knife, expect to be cut/killed.

So, what's left?

I guess the central point of my question is: if an attacker comes at you with a knife, and you have a holstered gun, are you better served to try to parry with your off-hand and fire from retention ASAP; or to use both hands in a bare-handed knife defense eek until such time as you get an opportunity to draw (what would that opportunity look like?) or take the knife away from the attacker?

If "it depends" then on what precisely does it depend?

All opinions appreciated. Thanks.

i've heard a lot of different opinions about this, mostly from people who've never been cut or stabbed. one popular response is: run. the problem with this and other strategies, is that most knife attacks are ambush attacks, and in many cases, the victim doesn't realize they've even been stabbed. this is what happened to me the first time i was attacked with a knife. yes, it's happened more than once. the first time, i was in high school, and i thought i was punched. i grappled with the guy, and that was when i saw he had a knife in his hand, with blood on it, and realized he'd stabbed me. i managed to get the knife from him, and he ran off. he got me in my thigh, and it went nearly to the bone.

i've found that if you are out somewhere, and confronted by someone who doesn't appear armed, always watch their hand movements. if i were to see someone move their hand out of my field of vision, i would immediately put my hand on my gun, and be ready to draw, while ordering them to stop whatever it is they're doing. don't wait for them to pull a knife out, then decide to draw.

i can't speak for anyone else, because i'm speaking from my own experiences. in a situation where you have time to react to a knife being drawn, but no time to evade, the best way to ward off an attack is by kicking the attacker. most people put their hands up immediately, and that is an invitation to be slashed. kick out or up, either to the groin, the knees, or the pelvic area. it will knock them off balance, and either give you time to escape, draw a weapon, or jump on them to disarm them, which i don't suggest.

i've been stabbed and cut. it sucks. i don't plan on letting it happen again. what i posted is my own experience. i'm not a cop, i was never military, just someone who grew up in a terrible neighborhood where violent crime was the norm. i don't have "tactical" training, just street experience. take that for what it's worth.

 

[ball3006]

Just draw and shoot the critter. If you stop to think about it, you will lose. If the first shot does not stop the critter, that is what the rest of the bullets in the magazine are for. You guys dwell too much on theroy instead of just doing.....chris3

 

[dayhiker]

Just draw and shoot the critter. If you stop to think about it, you will lose. If the first shot does not stop the critter, that is what the rest of the bullets in the magazine are for. You guys dwell too much on theroy instead of just doing.....chris3

Sure that will work.

If the guy is fifty feet away, waves the knife around, and yells "Hey you!! I am going to stab you to death!!"

 

[MachIVshooter]

Just draw and shoot the critter.

While you're drawing, he's inserting a blade into you.

Normal human reaction times for unanticipated events are on the order of a half second minimum. Assuming you know uinstinctively what to do, you've still got the better part of an additional second to draw and fire. That's at least a second and a half before you can put one in him, and it may not even be effective. And you can be mortally wounded by a blade in far less time than that. In a second and a half, he can stick you a half dozen times.

most people put their hands up immediately, and that is an invitation to be slashed.

Better your hands and arms than face and chest. A blade through your forearm is gonna hurt like hell, but it's not gonna kill you.

 

[jahwarrior]

Better your hands and arms than face and chest. A blade through your forearm is gonna hurt like hell, but it's not gonna kill you.

that's a good point. what i should have said is that most people put their arms/hands up, but don't actively try and neutralize the threat. blocking a knife won't be enough; he'll just continue to swing/stab away. that's why i brought up kicking at the attacker.

 

[Bobson]

Don't bring a gun to a knife fight.
If you try to draw a gun against an attacker with a knife, expect to be cut/killed.

I thought it was the other way around:

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Is it really that dangerous for me to draw a gun if someone attempts to attack me with a knife? Obviously a knife is a deadly weapon and serious danger exists, but it seems like I would have a pretty clear advantage, even if I couldn't grow the distance between us.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Video of knife attacks:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/hotel-clerk-survives-knife-attack-10197868 (resource predator)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52rEPWh9Sgg&feature=player_embedded (group monkey dance)

http://wn.com/Store_Owner_Shoots_Knife_Attacker_Video (note the first attack)

There are more out there if you want to look...

 

[hso]

if an attacker comes at you with a knife, and you have a holstered gun, are you better served to try to parry with your off-hand and fire from retention ASAP; or to use both hands in a bare-handed knife defense () until such time as you get an opportunity to draw

Those aren't absolutely exclusive from each other since you may have the opportunity to do the first and you may not have the opportunity to do the first.

You're ideal result is to stop the attack without damage to you. If you have time/training to do "A" then "A" is what you do since several shots COM/CNS while defending with the off hand can end the attack quicker. If you can't draw while effectively defending then you'll need both hands (and feet and head) to prevent/minimize injury to yourself, assuming you have the needed training to do this.

Most people don't have any training of any sort and those that do rarely have any realistic training in defending against a knife attack (and far fewer of them have training on how to do this with a firearm).

If you don't have any knife defense training and you do have a firearm on you, you're probably better off trying to tie the attacker's knife arm up while drawing and shooting into the COM until the attack stops or you run out of ammo (whichever comes first). Don't hesitate to use the gun as a blunt object either.

Running away depends upon how far apart you and your attacker start out, how fit you are to keep the pace up and outrun your attacker, what sort of intervening bits of cover you can put between you and the attacker.

take the knife away from the attacker

Iffy proposition even if you're well trained in techniques in knife disarms. If you're strong enough to crush cans of green beans in one bare hand you might latch onto the wrist of a knife wielding assailant (preferably the one with the hand with the knife) and hope to take the knife away without any training.

it seems like I would have a pretty clear advantage

I've proved that wrong on many occasions with people who mistakenly thought their magic boomstick talisman would solve all their defensive problems. Cops, martial artists, soldiers, gunnies and loudmouth tough guys (some of which have been all combined) found that a determined attacker that knew what they were doing could keep them from bringing a gun to bear (or even get it out of the holster) depending upon distance and preparation. If all you have is one tool, then you won't be able to handle all the little problems that need to be "fixed".

 

[Loosedhorse]

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

I was wondering for how long I could get away with that. Eight posts!

But, it was intentional: it strikes me as odd (but perhaps correct) that even though I've brought a gun to a knife fight, the correct defensive weapon is my empty hands (and feet).

I have trained a bit with knives. Enough to make me wonder, if I go empty handed against a knife, is that really going to buy me an opportunity to draw my gun? Or, as the snipers say, "you'll just die tired."

I understand it depends on the situation, and if the guy's next to you when the attack starts, you'll be empty handed. I'm wondering (among other things) at what point drawing with one hand while blocking with the other becomes an option, if ever.

 

[lemaymiami]

From my experience and folks I've talked to that witnessed cuttings and stabbings (fatal or non-fatal).... Jah's experience is right on the money. Most never see the knife even as it's being used (either victim or witness). Movie stuff where someone waves a blade around while loudly threatening all present don't happen very often in real life (and folks who do that sort of stuff around anyone with a gun don't have long lives...). What I'd want to teach a rookie are the two basics... keep some distance between you and a possible blade opponent (and do it anyway you have to, even if it means looking like a defensive back running backwards while covering the guy coming at them...). In a possible knife attack, distance is your best friend since it gives you other defensive possibilities (using a firearm if you have one, improvising any possible weapon or defense, etc.). Watch their hands (and do it every time with any potential assailant - no matter what age, sex, state of health) and keep watching their hands. Any attempt to conceal a hand or reach in a pocket might be the only visual warning you're going to get, period. Watching their hands goes for weapons of all kinds (including firearms) but is absolutely critical in a potential blade opponent.

I don't want to ever be in a knife fight (or another gun confrontation) as long as I live. As a result even though I'm long out of police work, that's not an area that I ever relax about. Knowing just how vulnerable any of us is to a sudden knife attack (and that's just about the only kind I know about...) is a pretty good idea if you use that knowledge to shape your tactics..

Some years ago I scared two young officers badly when the three of us confronted a late night professional shoplifter that had a history of working grocery stores. When I say professional this gal usually stole entire shopping cart loads of expensive cuts of meat with accomplices in a car waiting for her to dash out the door with the goods so they could empty the cart and boogie... What my officers didn't know (and I didn't have the time to tell them.. they had the call and I just got there as they found her inside the store) was that her usual deal was to go to housewares and steal a large butcher knife, remove it from the packaging and conceal it under a raincoat....

My tactics that night were a bit unorthodox since I drew down on an apparently un-armed offender and threatened her life if she didn't open her raincoat.... when she complied and the two young officer saw what they'd almost walked up on they were shocked to put it mildly... That sort of stuff will get anyone back into church or synagogue if they're quit going...

There are no good ways of dealing with a blade opponent... Anything that allows you to survive without injury is a very good result. Pray that you never run into anyone with a blade that really knows how to use one....

 

[USAF_Vet]

Having been stabbed in a mugging with a home made shiv, I can tell you that it's not fun, and unless you have Spidey senses, you'll never see it coming.

In my case, hindsight being what it is, the attack could have been prevented, but due to youthful arrogance, I found out the hard way I was not invincible. I also relied on the strngth I had in numbers having two friends with me.

Back at the time of this incident, I was under the age of 18 so I couldn't carry a gun.

I say that my situation was preventable due to the steps of escalation it took from initial contact to the actual attack. I won't get into the aftermath of the situation.

Several mistakes were made.
1. I was in the wrong part of town late at night.
2. My situational awareness sucked.
3. Overconfident based on strngth in numbers.
4. Did not disengage after initial contact when given the chance.

Having made those 4 mistakes led to the eventual attack. I had plenty of opportunites to disengage, but my arrogance and perception of the situation, couple with a lack of situational awareness, led to a nifty scar in my gut.

I was fortunate that the wound was shallow, my reaction time and martial arts skills were honed enough to deflect the attack from being a deep wound. I was able to control the hand wielding the knife and was able to subdue the attcker, and was able to put down the threat and escape.

Knife defense starts between your ears.

 

[hso]

I didn't even consciously see it coming when it happened to me. I just realized a guy was coming out from between a couple of vehicles from a crouch and reaching/thrusting towards me.

 

[jahwarrior]

Normal human reaction times for unanticipated events are on the order of a half second minimum. Assuming you know uinstinctively what to do, you've still got the better part of an additional second to draw and fire. That's at least a second and a half before you can put one in him, and it may not even be effective. And you can be mortally wounded by a blade in far less time than that. In a second and a half, he can stick you a half dozen times.

I've proved that wrong on many occasions with people who mistakenly thought their magic boomstick talisman would solve all their defensive problems. Cops, martial artists, soldiers, gunnies and loudmouth tough guys (some of which have been all combined) found that a determined attacker that knew what they were doing could keep them from bringing a gun to bear (or even get it out of the holster) depending upon distance and preparation. If all you have is one tool, then you won't be able to handle all the little problems that need to be "fixed".

Most never see the knife even as it's being used (either victim or witness). Movie stuff where someone waves a blade around while loudly threatening all present don't happen very often in real life (and folks who do that sort of stuff around anyone with a gun don't have long lives...).

Having been stabbed in a mugging with a home made shiv, I can tell you that it's not fun, and unless you have Spidey senses, you'll never see it coming.

Knife defense starts between your ears

I didn't even consciously see it coming when it happened to me. I just realized a guy was coming out from between a couple of vehicles from a crouch and reaching/thrusting towards me

i wanted highlight the points made by various members.

 

[mortablunt]

Nobody sees a real knife attack coming, and once the blade hits, the guy on the other end is normally either too shocked or in pain to properly do anything about it, unless they're already full on adrenaline or drugs. I once had to use a knife as a defensive weapon. The guy didn't even comprehend what was happening until I brought up the blade when he tried to strangle me. The whole thing lasted maybe 20 seconds. His gun didn't make a difference; I was too close when I first struck and then I never let him freely manipulate his gun arm.

The biggest danger with a knife attack is that someone can get in very close and very quickly, well within any sort of radius you'd have for alert. They can inflict mortal wounds in a number of seconds. Essentially, at ranges of 2m or closer, nothing beats a surprise knife attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gcFPjdwiI

The owner didn't have a chance and likely would have died or been severely injured if the robber didn't divert his attention.

 

[Hk Dan]

Pick up Gabe Suarez and Marc Denny's video "Die Less Often". It saved meonce--it works and you can do it with a little sparring. You don't need to be super fast or a delta force commando--it flat works.

 

[mortablunt]

^ Thanks. I'll take a look once I'm no longer using campus network.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Don't forget the ancient martial art of track and field.

 

[HorseSoldier]

If "it depends" then on what precisely does it depend?

The teaching point we got in the police academy was an overall threat assessment of the person with the knife. A deranged 90 year old lady with a butcher knife can kill you just as dead as some master ninja, but the odds are different, and in some cases as an LEO (like the literal 90 year old lady) you might have a hard time defending lethal force even with a knife inside the 30' (or 21') rule, etc.

On the other hand, some guy pulls a knife, drops into a practiced fighting stance, and comes at you like he knows what he's doing -- I'd call for help, and make every effort to defend myself while bringing a gun into the fight to end it immediately.

 

[blarby]

If you don't have any knife defense training and you do have a firearm on you, you're probably better off trying to tie the attacker's knife arm up while drawing and shooting into the COM until the attack stops or you run out of ammo (whichever comes first). Don't hesitate to use the gun as a blunt object either.

I'd like to add that if you aren't extensively trained in this process, attempting to grab outwardly ( as in hands reaching palm out ) at your edged assailant its very likely to get you cut in one of the worse possible places to do so.

Palm-In knife defense is a brutal last resort...you WILL be cut...The object of the defense is to place the cuts on the outsides of the arms, away from the vital soft undersides. I'd also like to note that this technique being sacrificial from the outset- is usually employed to buy time for a companion to escape.

 

[mortablunt]

^ If you have to arrest a knife, the best thing to do is to pin the knife arm between you and something that won't move easily like a wall.

 

[Odd Job]

I think running is a viable option. Get distance between you and the guy with the knife, then reconsider drawing.