How important is a knife?

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I carry a Magnum automatic 3" droppoint. It has a clip that secures it perfectly to my pantspocket. I have a CCDW license for lawful permit. I often find myself using it for everyday this and that and find it the perfect cutting tool. Its edge is hollow-ground and easily sharpened with a steel.
 
Philosophically speaking, if you're in a situation where the "assailant" is looking for an "easy mark," the knife can be a tremendous psychological deterrent to an attack. Now, if your assailant has a gun, that's a different story.
 
Now, if your assailant has a gun, that's a different story.
Not necessarily. At distance the gun has an advantage. But up close, it's relatively easy to negate the advantage of the gun.

The Suarez International 0-5Ft Gunfighting course I took in Apr 2009 is all about prevailing under such a situation. Just a few of the things we covered:
* Dealing against the drawn gun. Bad guy pointing in on you. What are all the options? We will look at everything from running away, to drawing and killing him, stabbing him with a knife, to disarming him and shooting him with his own gun.
* Dealing against the drawn knife. Both from "hold up" type situations to actual attacks. You will deal with them with the gun in hand (this one is really cool), and with empty hands, leading into a draw and shots as part of the fight.
* Dealing with a fight in confined areas such as hallways, elevators, phone booths and cars. All empty handed, and with weapons and with one leading to the other. (Props will be used as the range allows)
* Dealing with more than one bad guy. How to position and maneuver to deny them the advantage, as well as how to immediately escalate and take them out.
* The combined use of various tools such as knife and gun, knife and light, light and gun, gun and stick. Not only the how, but the why as well.
 
I think a knife is very important...for daily chores. For "defense"... the folders are most convenient, but very hard to get in action under the real pressure of a violent attacker trying to beat your skull in. Fixed blades come into play faster, but are less convenient and may run afoul of concealed weapon laws depending on jurisdiction.

Most important in a violent situation is being the one doing the violence. Start breaking things inside them, if you have a chance to deploy a knife to break things in them (i.e. open up their vascular system) great.

That said, I always carry a knife on me suitable for "social" use...I don't see myself using it for that though even in a violent situation. It's there...

I can draw my P226 way faster than my Tac folder and the pistol has a lot of advantages over the knife (at distance). Close up (0-5ft), I wouldn't take the time to draw anything, that same time to draw would allow me to break something inside them (stomp a knee, slam my forearm into their throat, etc.)
 
I carry a knife as a back up. Just as personal preferance I would rather carry a blade, mace, or pepper spray instead of a b.u.g.

I carry a Boker Great Knight. Its a large (4"+ blade)folder. Ky CCW allows you to carry (From the State patrol website) "Any knife other than an ordinary pocket knife or hunting knife."

We can even carry artificial knuckles, as long as they are not made of metal.
 
I carry I knife every day. Opening boxes with my 9mm makes too much noise and tends to damage the contents. :D

Seriously, there are a lot of things a quality blade is useful for besides self-defense.
 
I saw an interesting article in a blade magazine once about training with a tactical folder to allow a smaller person (like a woman) to guard against someone grabbing you around the throat from behind...draw the folder, open it, place it against their forearm and pull down. Nasty and effective, I made sure my daughters knew that one. I've also taught them the value of kneecaps, foot stomps, and headbutts. Also about going for the throat and eyes.

Everything is a weapon. Look at the everyday things around you, and think about how you could use it as a weapon. The chair, a pencil, a cup, what have you...Situational awareness is also key, but knowing all the soft parts and how to utilize them can save your life. If someone is within arms reach, there is so much you can do to hurt them. Eye gouges, ear rips, throat strikes, to mention a few, and of course, the old standby, the nads. I love watching ultimate fighting, but there are too many rules...when fighting for your life the only rule is to win. I don't fight for fun.

A good non-knife weapon is the Cold Steel Sharkie. I have beat mine against concrete and it chips a bit but it holds up. I have also gone into a courthouse with one (oops) and have also gone through airport security with one in my pocket. Nothing there to register on the metal detector. Cold Steel also makes a lot of neck knives that carry unobtrusively under a shirt.

One thing to always remember is this. A person 20 ft away from you (with a knife) is only about 2 seconds away from turning your innards into outards.

A knife is a great tool, infinitely handy to have. Another layer of defense, or offense if need be. One I hope never to have to use, but I would if I have to. I much prefer the non lethal options, but I think long and hard about everything I carry so that if needed, it will be by reaction rather than having to think about anything.

You are the ultimate weapon. I have gone weaponless, but been far from defenseless.
 
I usually carry three"small folder,medium folder and a Leatherman of some type. I also realize I know NOTHING of blade fighting, and attach no false sense of security because I have a blade or thre on me.

BUT, way better than a rock, I guess. YMMV.
 
Even though I have my CCW and carry a gun, I always carry two knives with me as well. The first is a small Buck folder with a 3 inch blade, the second is a Cold Steel Voyager XL Tanto with a 5 inch (and razor sharp) blade. I also have a Cold Steel Voyager X2, but with the 6" bowie style blade, it's just a bit too big for EDC. If you look up some of the writings of Massad Ayoob, there are a few different articles where he describes how people's lives were saved because they had a knife and, sadly, also lost because of the lack there of. And, as Beelzy said, it's not just carrying a knife, it's knowing how to use one in a defensive situation, if the need arises.
 
I CC most every day. And I carry a defensive pocket folder almost 24/7. Defensive/back up knives are usually recomended. A knife can be more appropriate in a defensive situation than a gun. And when not allowed to carry a gun, then a knife is your next best bet. Or a collapsable batton if allowed in your area. Which I also carry on occasion.
The most important thing to remember in a knife fight, should you find your self in one or about to be in one, you can't be affraid to get cut. But I highly recomend to take a self defense course that teaches knife defense and offense techniques. If you don't know how to use one and bring it out, it could make things worse on your end.
I'm no expert in knife techniques, but am confident in it's usefullness as a back up to a gun.
Also, fixed blades are better in defense situations. Even the best "locking" folders can close at the wrong time. And I have experience with that, and the scares to prove it.
 
I like knives, but most pocket knives make one of the worst possible weapons. Can you make one work with preparedness and training?
Sure, but you could make almost any random solid blunt object work better.

Fixed blades, especially those with a blade over 5-7" can be good but are outlawed in most jurisdictions. They can be brought into a fight very quickly, reach vitals, and be used while in mid struggle.


Almost any blunt object around beats the effectiveness of a knife. Blunt objects are everywhere. A person stabbed 10x will still be conscious and able to keep fighting if they wish. A person bludgeoned good 1x has no choice but to become disoriented or go unconscious.
Meaning defensive use of a knife gives the opponent far more opportunity to inflict damage.
What you can do in a class when expecting it with your knife already deployed or in a position to be deployed is different than in the real world. Your attacker won't just be trying to prevent you from successfully using your knife like in training, but actually doing damage to you.


Knives are wonderful tools though. Far more useful for non-defensive emergencies. Like cutting the seat belt off someone trapped by an extremely tight seat belt after a vehicular accident.
Or performing an emergency tracheotomy on someone dying or unconscious due to swelling or an obstruction.
Cutting off a piece of clothing when seconds count and the item is in the way of rendering first aid to a damaged area or a string or a rope is choking someone.
The list goes on and on.
As well as a basic tool to fix or build many things in the field.
If you are going to carry one for other uses, having something that can also be an effective weapon allows it to do double duty.
But that is about as far as I would go.
And I say that as someone with some decent first and second hand experience with bladed weapons.
They simply do not incapacitate quickly enough, and the points of the body most vulnerable may require taking extensive injury yourself to reach with a short blade if in a fight with someone with moderate skill.




As a result I would say a knife for defensive (or offensive) use is not very important. As in almost any room I could find blunt objects that would do far more damage than your typical legal size folder, and would incapacitate in much less time.
Who has time to try to damage tendons and nerves one at a time with a short blade when the attacker may also knock you out with one good blow from a heavy object, or something causing your head to impact the ground or an object. What will they do to you while you are unconscious?
If you think stabbing with a typical 3-4" blade is going to reach anything important in most areas of the body that physically forces a stop to a fight, I got news for you.

As a useful tool, a potentially a life saving tool, beyond defensive uses they are very important. As a weapon not very much.
 
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there are plenty of rather large flashlights that are perfectly legal to have anywhere

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Blunt objects can just as usefull as a knife in certain situations, but I don't carry a "rather large flashlight" around with me. A flashlight can be blocked with an arm very easily, but with a knife, a person is going to be less likely to try to block.
I would take a beating with a flashlight before a cutting or stabbing with a knife.
 
Yeah, I think the solution to your problem is just to replace the utilitarian knife you carry now for something that can fulfill all your everyday uses and still be used defensively. Then you're not adding weight, bulk, etc. I carry a CRKT Bearclaw, with a serrated blade, and it serves all my work and life needs, and was designed to be retained in a fight. It seems like a decent compromise.

Josh
 
I don't leave the house without a couple of knives. Usually a Spyderco Endura clipped IWB, but my latest went missing on a firewood cutting expedition. And either a Buck stockman or a MooreMaker small trapper in my pocket. Since the Endura went away, I've been carrying a Benchmade Mini Ruckus. Big knife, but IWB in the crease between thigh and torso, I hardly notice it's there. There's another Endura on order, so will probably go back to that as I'd rather lose a $50 knife than a $125 one. On weekends, I carry a Buck Woodsman fixed blade. I'm not comfortable carrying a visable fixed blade at work, it might scare the public. Because I pocket carry a Kahr .380 and Kahr P9 IWB, I don't think of the knife as a primary defensive weapon. On the rare occasions when I can't carry a firearm, a solid knife is comforting.
 
I look at it this way. Yes, if you need a knife you are in really bad shape. BUT, if you need it, you need it REALLY bad. (Much like a gun in that regard.)

I carry a CRKT full-size tanto folder, but I'm getting tired of it because it isn't ground the same on both sides, if I need to do conventional cutting, it goes to one side. The next knife I get will be in person, not on the internet, so I can see that it's ground the way I want it.

Yes, you can take a knife lots of places you can't take a gun. I spend a lot of time on military posts, where guns are a no-no, but darn near EVERYONE has a knife clipped to their right pocket. Besides emergency defensive uses, there are MANY other emergency and every day utility uses for a knife, from opening boxes to cutting a seatbelt.

I don't being a knife to a gunfight willingly, but if that's the hand I get dealt I'll be glad I have it.
 
My father has worked in various industrial plants since i can remember. Many of them happen to be in larger cities, and many of them have been known to employ some rather unstable, unsavory folks. He was once nearly carjacked in a parking lot, and another time had a shotgun pulled on him *inside* a plant by a disgruntled worker. The S can still HTF, even at work.

For the longest time, i carried a 4.5" thumb-open stiletto to work, just a cheapo $15 m-tech. It was nice for getting things out of tight spaces, scoring softer metals, opening boxes, and made a nice pry-bar at times. Only problem being, it raised some complaints from my co-workers because it was "scary"... which i suppose would make it hard to defend in court if i ever had to put it to SD use.
 
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Almost any blunt object around beats the effectiveness of a knife. Blunt objects are everywhere. A person stabbed 10x will still be conscious and able to keep fighting if they wish. A person bludgeoned good 1x has no choice but to become disoriented or go unconscious.

I am assuming you have never taken a serious look at how an edged weapon can be used. There are a couple of schools of thought that I am aware of and there are almost certainly more out there.

1: "Jab, Grab, and Stab"

Use the unarmed hand to jab at the assailant and then grab the limb he is attempting to use to defend/deflect and proceed to stab as many times as possible in a short amount of time. Bigger blades work better and even 5 well placed stabs COM will place all but the highest crackheads on the ground with probable pneumothorax and atelectasis.

2: Basic knife combat

Target areas of weakness and possible vital points, mostly arteries and nerves. Specifically if you sufficiently hit the carotid artery once your assailant will lose consciousness in around 3 seconds. Hit the subclavian and it's around 3.5 seconds (though due to location this is a pretty tricky target to hit under duress). Again, target points of weakness close to the surface of the skin. One particularly interesting target is the wrist. If the assailant is attacking with a weapon there are methods to gain control of the hand with the weapon and simultaneously slashing at the wrist, possibly severing the tendons and radial or ulnar artery which can lead to loss of consciousness due to blood loss. It takes longer than the more centrally located arteries but it allows you to remain outside the attackers grappling range and could reduce or completely eliminate the assailants ability to use that hand (although usually these techniques set up a move inward to incapacitate the opponent).



As far as the whole "A person bludgeoned good 1x has no choice but to become disoriented or go unconscious" bit, I know firsthand of a guy who was smashed in the head with a brick and all it did was tick him off to the point he nearly killed the other guy. (Massive amounts of alcohol were involved in this situation, and the brick definitely has a higher IQ than the guy it hit).


Understand that there is no magic be-all-end-all defense tool whether it's a knife, rock, less lethal option, or pistol (although a firearm is a definite equalizer). Keep in mind that if they don't stop you will have to continue the fight and expect to be injured. We are not all Steven Segal copies with our leet tactical Aikido skillz that kick down 3 dozen armed Ninja's with rabies and come out unscathed. With the expectation to be injured you will be less likely to be psychologically immobilized by the pain or sight of your own blood oozing out of a gash on your forearm.
 
I have a rotation of lock back knifes I carry everyday 2 S&W a 4 and a 3 inch , a Puma Raven in 3.5 , A Gerber Gator, and a SA Hiker. I have a small 2 inch Kershaw that rides in the cell phone holster. I also carry a Stockman from time to time for non-threating cutting.
 
If you think stabbing with a typical 3-4" blade is going to reach anything important in most areas of the body that physically forces a stop to a fight, I got news for you.
And I have some anatomy for you. Organs are about 3" inside the body...major nerves and arteries can be closer. Now, some physics: The body will compress at least 3", then it can rebound (or break depending on what kind of forces applied and where).

So, lets picture a typical CPR situation, chest compressions. A lot of times, the sternum gets broken by accident, by someone not trying to. Substitute your palm for the tip of a 3" knife. Adjust targeting down 2" to the solar plexus. Now, stab with all your body weight: your 3" knife will create a 6" plus wound, penetrating the descending aorta/vena cava and probably the liver.

Re-orient the bodies to standing, lunge in with all your body weight behind the stab to same target, same penetration (over 6" w/ 3" blade), same results. (...it will also knock the wind out of him and knock him off balance just like if it was a full body punch to the solar plexus).

I just put a tool in my hand and strike the same way as if I didn't have the tool. I don't dance around and "knife fight" or "stick fight". Target weak points of the body with full power strikes, a tool just adds to the trauma. Impact weapons can fracture bones and crush tissue, edged weapons open up the vascular system inside them and the hemorrhage internally.

Lots of ways to create trauma, no way better than another, no tool better (in and of itself). Results are what matters, is something broken and can no longer function? Then it didn't matter how it got broken, keep breaking things until they are no longer a threat.

Rock fracturing the skull (unconsciousness, coma) great! Stab to the aorta/liver, then entry through the eye into brain...yep, pretty instant incapacitation there too.

Stomp to the knee (all the way to the ground)...stomp to the neck (after they hit the deck) fracturing the vertebrae between C1 and C7 causing a spinal tear or sever...instant paralysis or death.

Either what you do injures them...or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you better hurry up and injure them before they do it to you...and don't stop.
 
Also, people need to learn some principles of knife fighting. Maybe a small knife will do limited damage, but I would stab as many times as possible, create multiple traumas, even if it's in the same area, to create as much tissue damage and bleeding as possible. Five or six hard jabs to the same area, even with a tiny knife can put someone in big trouble.
 
Target areas of weakness and possible vital points, mostly arteries and nerves. Specifically if you sufficiently hit the carotid artery once your assailant will lose consciousness in around 3 seconds.

I have seen it happen, someone stabbed multiple time in the neck, including severing a carotid artery. The large stabbed individual proceeded to beat the crap out of the punk that did it, and then passed out about 20 seconds later. Others got involved. With blood showering the area. The attacked individual got prompt medical attention and a blood transfusion and were back to normal within a couple days with just some scars and stitches.

The amount of blood showering out under pressure at face level certainly means any disease that person had was shared with his attacker.

I also knew someone knocked out and put into a coma from a hit to the head with something as mundane as a full beer bottle.


Stabbing offensively is much easier than defensively. The offensive attacker knows they need to use their weapon before they are engaged in a fight and can deploy it accordingly.
However I assume you are not planning criminal actions.
If the other individual starts the fight, they are not going to let you easily do damage. Most violent criminals that make a life out of violence have more experience fighting than your average person.
(Sure there is the young punks and drunks who that does not apply to.)
If they are using a weapon they will have similar or greater reach. If they don't care about the law they are likely to have a bigger and better weapon whether a large knife, blunt weapon, or a gun.
If they are not armed, then you are using lethal force to face a simple battery. Which in most circumstances is itself a crime, and you are at least likely to be considered a mutual combatant and face criminal charges for any serious damage.
Mutual combatants don't get to claim self defense.

If you end up on the ground quickly, retrieving a folded knife and deploying it before it is countered is not so easy. That simple little split second process both alerts them and it can be difficult to flick open a knife, while holding it tight enough not to drop it in mid struggle, and when someone has grabbed or moved to contain that hand so it has minimal movement.
A fixed blade is much easier, but also illegal in much of the nation.
Then after all that movement to retrieve that weapon with one hand, leaving you less able to counter attacks being delivered, you are left with a weapon with only moderate potential.



So if you deploy the weapon before an attack, you are committing the felony of aggravated assault/assault with a deadly weapon.
If you pull a knife on a single similar sized attacker and they do not have a weapon, you are meeting a misdemeanor assault or battery with a felony attack in most jurisdictions.
So under most circumstances where using that weapon is legal for you, the other individual will be armed, or there is more than one person attacking you.
A small folder is a really bad weapon in those circumstances.
It has poor reach, is hard to deploy while grappling, and does minimal damage compared to most weapons you can be attacked with.
If you have any opportunity to leave or back down and choose not to, then you are very likely to be considered a mutual combatant, and self defense is not an allowed defense.

An actual fight between grown men who know how to fight or lived some street tough lives when the stakes are lethal is quite different from a schoolyard brawl between teenagers. Anything and everything which can be a weapon suddenly is a weapon. There is a lot more power behind even the same attacks, and most solid hits do significant damage.
If it's not bolted down, it gets thrown, or picked up and smashed into an opponent.
And that is if they didn't bring a weapon, a likely much better weapon not in compliance with the law.



I am glad many here are so confident and content with tiny folding knives.
If you were attacking unarmed people, or other people with tiny knives your confidence may be warranted.
If on the other hand you are using legal self defense, it will only be deployed when facing another weapon or multiple attackers.
Where I come from the type of people who are multiple attackers would then pull out weapons they are carrying themselves and some not armed may back up and grab things in the room or off the ground. Whether it is a piece of furniture with greater reach, or some bricks or large rocks on the street. Or random debris, like a bottle, pipe, or some discarded automobile component.
If it is a lone individual they already have their weapon out to justify your use of lethal force.



stomp to the neck (after they hit the deck)
Which in most courts of law will be murder or manslaughter. A prosecutor will argue they were already down and you then used excessive force against.
You seem to forget a person abiding by the law dealing with authorities after the fact has limitations the criminal who will flee does not.
You may feel they are still a threat and will get up and hurt you, but I guarantee the jury which is half house wives and soccer moms, and men who have never experienced violence will by holding you to different standards. Standards which include ceasing to attack a downed and injured opponent.
The prosecutor will tell them they are right, and that someone down on the ground is not an immediate threat, and hence it was not self defense.
I just put a tool in my hand and strike the same way as if I didn't have the tool. I don't dance around and "knife fight" or "stick fight".
Which is fine as long as you are willing to take some stabbings in return from the armed opponent with that strategy. Then it is just who does better damage, but both will take damage.
Because clearly the other person is armed if you are fighting one individual with a lethal weapon.

To be legal you may not use a weapon against an unarmed man unless you can voice to your average person in a jury box just why they were so much more dangerous than you and created a major disparity of force barehanded.
In most cases they will need to be armed or the court will find you overreacted.
You must flee or back down from any challenge or threat if given the opportunity, or you will be considered a mutual combatant even if the other person attacks first.
Meaning your pride has to go out the window, or your use of force is unlikely to be legal. Mutual combatants cannot claim self defense, and so any damage inflicted even against someone who attacks you first is criminal.
You cannot finish off a downed opponent, and so if they proceed to get right back up and attack you, you must then fight for your life once again and potentially lose. Because they just as easily could have stayed down and no longer posed any threat.
You may not flee the scene without suspicion after wards in most circumstances, so if their criminal buddy, friend, or family member you were unaware of then attacks you in retaliation, well that is one of the added dangers of remaining on scene.
LEO and others may prevent you from immediately treating minor wounds or washing the other guy's blood from your wounds and chemically treating them to reduce transmission of blood-borne disease. They want to gather evidence and are likely to detain you initially if your injuries do not warrant a trip to the hospital.
 
Someone posted something about knives being good to carry as tools for stuff like
performing an emergency tracheotomy on someone dying
and not for self-defense because
What you can do in a class when expecting it with your knife already deployed or in a position to be deployed is different than in the real world.
So, carrying a knife for minor surgery makes more sense than carrying it for self-defense?
Almost any blunt object around beats the effectiveness of a knife. Blunt objects are everywhere. A person stabbed 10x will still be conscious and able to keep fighting if they wish. A person bludgeoned good 1x has no choice but to become disoriented or go unconscious.
Apples and oranges.
 
I pretty much agree with Zoog. I carry a full-size folder pretty much all of the time, I carry a Gerber Mk II with all combat gear, and I usually have a variety of keychain knives and my leatherman as well. There is no legal reason to limit the size of my knife. Just because I have one doesn't mean there is no reason to have the other.
 
stomp to the neck (after they hit the deck)
Which in most courts of law will be murder or manslaughter. A prosecutor will argue they were already down and you then used excessive force against.
Really? maybe, he was an armed home invader, I stomped his neck after his knee...he was moving (still armed) towards my daughters room.

This whole tread is about using a knife for self defense...which last time I checked was considered deadly force. So, inefficiently cutting someone with a folder is OK and gets no legal commentary, but efficiently stomping on a neck does? If I am in a deadly force scenario, I am going to injure them until they are no longer a threat. An armed assailant with just a broken knee, is very much still a threat.

Stabbing offensively is much easier than defensively.
What is an "offensive" vs. a "defensive" stab? Umm...make mine "offensive" then? I'm gonna get to stabin' with all my weight into it....like I mean it, like I'm in a prison yard. I will be more efficient than the typical criminal in said prison yard because I know anatomy (as an aside, the Aryan Brotherhood started to study anatomy, it seems the guards were breaking things up before they could kill the guy).

We are talking about using a knife (or not) to save your life in a deadly force scenario!

Then it is just who does better damage
This is always the case in violence (vs stupid brawling for pride). One person is doing the violence, injuring someone, the other is getting injured.

If the other individual starts the fight, they are not going to let you easily do damage. Most violent criminals that make a life out of violence have more experience fighting than your average person.
They don't have much training though. The advantage the criminal has, is intent. They are willing to seriously injure or kill without hesitation. If you are willing to do the same...then the playing field is level. 2 people trying to seriously injure each other without hesitation.

I'm not defending a knife as a great weapon to carry...my 1st post basically said they are great for opening stuff, probably won't have it in your hand for violence though, for the reasons in your post. If you can get one in your hand, great. Use it effectively along with your other body weapons. I have seen trauma like you describe above and agree it isn't necessarily incapacitating fast enough. Same goes for a gunshot wound.

The key is not to focus on and just use the knife. That's like voluntarily making yourself a one-armed man in the fight. Break the ribs on one side w/ a punch, enter the liver on the other with a stab. Knee the groin and rupture a testicle, stomp the ankle... (leave if you feel safe to do so...or engage other opponents...or if he's a home invader crawling towards your child's room, injure them again.)

What if they injure you? Well, then they either will keep doing it not letting you recover (you're done), or they will hesitate and let you recover your senses, injure them with whatever body parts are still working and don't let up like they did.

None of my posts will ever be about "mutual combatant" silly, stupid, ego driven, bar room BS.

If I find myself in a criminally violent situation, I'm going to make it violent by doing what they do best, albeit in a more efficient manner due to a decade and a half of training. Not fancy martial arts techniques, ugly strikes using full body weight to weak anatomy. Any MD will tell you the forces and vectors I'm taking about will break stuff. Happens on the playing field somewhere by accident every day.
 
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