Knife defense

[conw]

What can you see that allows you to shoot me?

I would just hope that you tripped on your untied shoelaces as I ran away!

*You can not effectively run away from a person with a knife who has an agenda..
...
*It dos'nt take much to die from a knife wound. When an artery or respitory organ is tagged
*Shock is a killer, when arm flesh is peeled away; your body will go into shock.

Regarding point 1, I think that really depends on how good you are at using your environment to your benefit, and what you mean by "agenda." A random aggro emotionally disturbed person may not have the motivation to chase and stab you if you run...or they might. The issue to me isn't whether you can run, it's just whether running has any place on your decision tree, as knife assaults don't typically occur knife-first. A verbal "interview" turned physical contact turned knife assault may not have a clear "RUN!" cue in it, for most people.

The second point I quoted...I agree to some extent but again, first aid skills are important, as is the knowledge that if you give up in a "knife fight," you will surely be killed. Better to fight through it and hope to get patched up. Not always possible, true. But there is evidence that lung wounds are eminently survivable.

Point 3 - sorry but that's an oversimplification. It is highly individual and to say "If you get your arm filleted you will die of shock" is not a valid statement.

 

[Cthulhucalling]

I train in Krav Maga, and we certainly advocate the Nike defense if you can get away with it. Krav is known for its realistic training scenarios, and I don't believe I've ever been attacked by someone starting 21+ feet away, brandishing a knife. Rather, it's a close in attack, with the weapon hidden until the last moment. Unless your name is the Waco Kid, you're not going to get a draw and shot off before you're stabbed perhaps multiple times, even by an untrained attacker.

The old thinking was that you complied with the attacker (ie, give them your wallet), but new thinking (and my instructor) say that now it's a 50/50 chance even if you comply. We also don't subscribe to any fantasies of magically disarming them, although my instructor makes it look easy. He says it's much easier to disarm them after they're unconscious.

I would certainly recommend learning combatives against a rubber knife armed opponent, and then working up to someone armed with a ShockKnife. A lot of people I train with get a little lax while training against a rubber knife, but they quickly tighten up when the ShockKnife comes out.

We also just did a Nike defense drill where we were being chased around the studio by a knife-armed opponent, and we were able to throw chairs and tables in the way to slow the pursuer down. A couple of months ago we did a realistic kidnap scenario, where a couple of instructors in full pads would pull in in a van and grab one of the students, throw him into the van and speed off. The student had to fight off the attackers inside the van. After a few minutes, they were returned to the studio, and had to fill out a police witness report, trying to recall everything they could about the attackers, the vehicle, what they said, etc... that's how much we value realistic training!

Hopefully in a different situation, where it starts out with a war of words, you've maintained enough situation awareness to know when it's going to escalate.

 

[alsaqr]

Sorry.

Checked out the photos formerly posted here. Snopes says it happened to a US Airman in a Korean bar.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

 

[mortablunt]

That's pretty grisly. Thank God the victim survived.

 

[jeepnik]

Keep in mind that the individual that is playing the victim knows what is going to happen. Compare that to a situation with the distractions we face in our everyday lives the results could vary drastically. With that said, it goes to show you how important situational awareness is if you want to survive.

True. But my point was that many times when one sees a video, one sees what the videographer wants the viewer to see. It's sort of like statistics. They can prove or disprove anything depending on which statistics you include in your analysis.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Last I knew, those pictures originated under circumstances other than those described above. Anyone have more concerning this issue?

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Last I knew, those pictures originated under circumstances other than those described above. Anyone have more concerning this issue?

I couldn't find the original post in which I first saw those pictures (some years ago, now), but the fellow was not originally described as being a member of law enforcement.

 

[EvilGenius]

I couldn't find the original post in which I first saw those pictures (some years ago, now), but the fellow was not originally described as being a member of law enforcement.

I heard this too.

 

[alsaqr]

See my post #53.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

 

[Owen Sparks]

As ugly as those pictures are, the wounds are not deep and the victim is still sitting up. What you want is a deep penitrating stab wound to end a fight.

 

[GLOOB]

Since you're likely to get cut/hurt/killed anyway, I suppose you ought to try to do more cutting/hurting/killing than the other guy, meaner and faster.

Is that the right answer??

 

[saltydog452]

Drained, skinned, sliced and diced

There are folks who can do that to a bison using a butter knife and have steaks on the fire before the dust settles.

Don't know and hope I never find out, a defensive posture/mind set probabally wouldn't work against a knife attack any more than it'd work with a fighter jock.

At this point in my life, my only hope would be to react quick enough to get lead into the aggressor before I bled out.

salty

 

[EvilGenius]

As ugly as those pictures are, the wounds are not deep and the victim is still sitting up. What you want is a deep penitrating stab wound to end a fight.

Not necessarily, those slashes were plenty deep enough to be fatal. Just in all the wrong places.

 

[Fred Fuller]

My memory was the slashes illustrated originated in some correctional institution or other as the result of a difficulty between/among inmates. In my own limited experience as an EMT, such wounds are usually indicative of an attack not intended to be fatal, but to deliver a message of some sort. I've known of standard pocket knives (as opposed to razor blades or boxcutters) used for that purpose, with the blade tip only exposed in a sort of 'pinch' grip. Obviously, anyone with the ability and opportunity to do that much damage in a slashing attack could easily kill with a much more lethal stabbing attack.

 

[Owen Sparks]

A straight thrust will penitrate organs and do serious damage. A slash will often not penitrate past the subqutanious layer fat just under the skin as in the picture. A straight linear thrust to the eye socker, throat or solar plexus will drop an advisary on the spot.

 

[EvilGenius]

So will a slash across the neck, abdomen and groin.

 

[hso]

LL,

That's what I remember from my friends in corrections. Also, Snopes very clearly says that it is not an Airman in Korea. The pictures have been around the 'net and have been attributed to almost any and every imaginable situation.

 

[dayhiker]

A straight linear thrust to the eye socker, throat or solar plexus will drop an advisary on the spot.

Though in a fight those are much harder targets. If you adversary has any knowledge (and warning) at all he will protect them.

Sometimes you just have to take what you can get. A slashing attack just might give you the opportunity to go for more effective areas.

If you are talking about a knife attack in an offensive role against an unsuspecting target, well than yes. The fight could be over in a matter of seconds.

 

[Steel Talon]

Regarding point 1, I think that really depends on how good you are at using your environment to your benefit, and what you mean by "agenda." A random aggro emotionally disturbed person may not have the motivation to chase and stab you if you run...or they might. The issue to me isn't whether you can run, it's just whether running has any place on your decision tree, as knife assaults don't typically occur knife-first. A verbal "interview" turned physical contact turned knife assault may not have a clear "RUN!" cue in it, for most people.

When a "person" is motivated to do harm they will be focused on doing just that. Will they be relentless? sure.. Until lack of physical ability forces them to stop. Be it from being shot, clobbered, injured, or lack of fitness. However, until that occurs the "victim" is still in "catch up" mode. Simply put the "Victim requires three actions: See it, process it ,react to it. While the attacker requires only two. Unfortunately most citizens can't run (my opinion) over 30 yards due to poor physical shape.

The second point I quoted...I agree to some extent but again, first aid skills are important, as is the knowledge that if you give up in a "knife fight," you will surely be killed. Better to fight through it and hope to get patched up. Not always possible, true. But there is evidence that lung wounds are eminently survivable.

I absolutely agree "Mind set" is key to any type of self preservation.

Yes, lung wounds can be survived. However, immediate medical response is most critical to survival. Once a "lung" collapses and fills with blood death comes very near. If an artery is hit it must be pinched off. Some can be reached but others are impossible. If severed, they recoil back into the body.

Point 3 - sorry but that's an oversimplification. It is highly individual and to say "If you get your arm filleted you will die of shock" is not a valid statement.

Over simplified sure, but still true in statement. Shock is a killer. Heavy blood loss brings on shock. A person who is in shock and is not receiving medical treatment soon, death can come. Fleshing and slicing is an occurance that leads to shock.

 

[Rae]

I read this thread and felt compelled to register, just to give some insight . I carry a fixed blade 4.5 inch in-between my middle and right rear belt loop and a 4 inch benchmade auto folder on my right pocket . First of all I would never pull either without just cause and second the two times I did pull I was successful in stoping the threat . If you get in to my " threat " zone (5-10 feet )I'm already posturing myself to draw without any obvious movement. If the threat continues one of them will be pulled and palmed . If physical contact is made the knife is brought to bear . If you ever see my knife you are way too close for any retreat . I had a gun pulled on me and as I went for my wallet and grabbed the fixed blade and went for the assailants forearm with a back stroke to his stomach , he ran and was arrested later at the ER where he said he ran through a glass door . To underestimate any edged weapon is crazy .I am no crackhead gang banger and have been interested in edged weapons since I was given my first pocket knife at 6 years old . Unfortunately you don't get the criminals background till he is dead or locked up . Never think a gun makes you superman .

 

[dayhiker]

I read this thread and felt compelled to register, just to give some insight . I carry a fixed blade 4.5 inch in-between my middle and right rear belt loop and a 4 inch benchmade auto folder on my right pocket . First of all I would never pull either without just cause and second the two times I did pull I was successful in stoping the threat . If you get in to my " threat " zone (5-10 feet )I'm already posturing myself to draw without any obvious movement. If the threat continues one of them will be pulled and palmed . If physical contact is made the knife is brought to bear . If you ever see my knife you are way too close for any retreat . I had a gun pulled on me and as I went for my wallet and grabbed the fixed blade and went for the assailants forearm with a back stroke to his stomach , he ran and was arrested later at the ER where he said he ran through a glass door . To underestimate any edged weapon is crazy .I am no crackhead gang banger and have been interested in edged weapons since I was given my first pocket knife at 6 years old . Unfortunately you don't get the criminals background till he is dead or locked up . Never think a gun makes you superman .

I agree to a point.......

Given a person with the proper mindset and at least minimal training a firearm easily outclasses a knife as a defensive weapon.

As an offensive weapon ,again with proper mindset , both will make your victim equally dead.

You are right though, a firearm alone will not make you safe from a knife wielding attacker.

 

[EvilGenius]

I agree to a point.......

Given a person with the proper mindset and at least minimal training a firearm easily outclasses a knife as a defensive weapon.

As an offensive weapon ,again with proper mindset , both will make your victim equally dead.

You are right though, a firearm alone will not make you safe from a knife wielding attacker.

I think, depending on distance, a knife will easily outclass a fire arm.

Also assuming a minimum amount of training, the knife is much simpler to use and more easy to remember how to use when the adrenaline dumps.

However, I don't think it's as likely that an attacker will run up within knife striking distance to use a gun and it can also go through things like diors and windows. So a gun and extensive training I think is still a more useful tool for self defense.


I guess what I'm trying say, is in semi trained hands, a knife is more simple and dangerous, where as a gun is more efficient.

 

[Rae]

I think, depending on distance, a knife will easily outclass a fire arm.

Also assuming a minimum amount of training, the knife is much simpler to use and more easy to remember how to use when the adrenaline dumps.

However, I don't think it's as likely that an attacker will run up within knife striking distance to use a gun and it can also go through things like diors and windows. So a gun and extensive training I think is still a more useful tool for self defense.


I guess what I'm trying say, is in semi trained hands, a knife is more simple and dangerous, where as a gun is more efficient.

I couldn't agree more , I always carry my knives but there are places that won't allow CHL . A fighting chance is better than no chance .

 

[Odd Job]

Here's an interesting one:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/cctv-footage--shop-owner-fights-off-knifeman-with-broom.html

 

[Owen Sparks]

There is a difference between a slash and a cut. A cut is a heavy deliberate drag of the blade across flesh. A slash is fast and glancing and depends on the mass of the knife to penitrate. Typical 3" to 4" pocket folders don't have much inertia and tend to make long but shallow wounds. This is because as the speed of the blade increases, the srrface tension of skin increases preportionatly. A perfect example of this principle is a water ski that rides up on the surface of the water or a bullet that skips off a pond. Slashing will work well if your knife is big enough, like an 11 inch Bowie with a good bit of curve to its belly but whatever you have in your pocket is probably too small and light. Of course there are exceptions such as hook billed blades that tend to dig in but you give up stabing ability with these. Everything is a trade off but with the small pocket folder a straight driving thrust with your body weight solidly behind it is the most effective way to end a fight, especially if you know how to"cut"the knife back out.