Detroit woman killed when "hug" discharges firearm

[gym]

Ok sohe had an upside down carry rig, My ppk's was caried that way in a shoulder holster. soft leather, "a la james bond", easily explains it. The gun faces upwards, the thump safety needs to be released for the gun to drop out. She was behind him, her finger entered the trigger gaurd "right through the lambskin holster, and bang" right through the open hole in the holster and into the first thing it hits. Mine fell out once. They were dangerous to carry.

 

[JohnBT]

"The chief believes the gun discharged after Miller hugged the officer around his waist."

I don't think the chief knows what a waist hug is. Or maybe he does.

 

[lemaymiami]

Enjoyed reading the various speculations about this incident.... Noted that since most are above board they're actually taking this account at face value. On the street you quickly learn that whatever explanation you get after someone's been shot probably should have started with "Once upon a time...."

If I sound cynical - it was an occupational hazard. I personally handled several shootings where the victim survived and was clearly complicit in covering up the actual circumstances in whatever firearm mis-adventure had taken place.... If a badge is involved the tendency to try to "clean things up" is no different than if a citizen is involved.

The only scenario I never encountered was the officer suicide that included having all the gun cleaning gear out on the table.... but I retired out after only 22 years.

 

[essayons21]

Wow some of you are really showing your age by the wonderment at how this could possibly happen while dancing.

If you go to any party in the present day frequented by late teenagers to early twenties, the music will probably be some form of dance, house, or hip-hop. The style of dancing will be grinding, or as a casual observer would describe it - dry humping.

An entirely plausible scenario:

Off-duty officer is bent over at the waist, angling the barrel of his gun 90 degrees to the rear. The woman "hugs" him by grabbing his hips, placing one of her digits over and in the trigger guard through a cheap nylon holster. A little gyrating and the gun goes off. Traditionally the male and female roles are reversed in this position, but stranger things have happened.

Combine a relatively tall man, a relatively short woman, a forward cant on the holster, and probably more than a little bit of shifting and you have a heart shot.

If police departments issue holsters for off duty carry, they are usually the cheapest crap they can get. If the department does not issue holsters, many officers are cheap, and will buy that same crap.

 

[Nushif]

If you go to any party in the present day frequented by late teenagers to early twenties, the music will probably be some form of dance, house, or hip-hop. The style of dancing will be grinding, or as a casual observer would describe it - dry humping.

Are you trying to tell me they weren't doing the slow waltz and foxtrot?! How uncouth!

But the guy is right, there is a small segment of the population that considers dancing to be a rather vigorous as well as acrobatic activity. Hence I don't take my gun to metal concerts.
Cause when I do my vigorous waltzing there is the chance that I lose my gun. And that's expensive. Or deadly. Yup. Waltzing. 8)

 

[Pilot]

This whole thing stinks. It is sad and tragic. However, notice the sole focus of the victim's mother. The gun. Why did he have a gun? Why did he have a gun in his own house? Why did he have a gun at his own party? Why didn't the gun have a "safety"?

I think its a deflection. My questions would be. Why was she grabbing a married man dancing with his wife? Why was shy "flirty"? Why did she grab him enough to cause a gun to discharge?

Instead of focuing on the gun as they all do, focus on the actions of the girl, and the cop.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Maybe they were playing Twister and didn't want to fess up.

 

[Skribs]

I think its a deflection. My questions would be. Why was she grabbing a married man dancing with his wife? Why was shy "flirty"? Why did she grab him enough to cause a gun to discharge?

I agree its a deflection, but we don't know whether or not this lady is an anti or if she'd just upset. I disagree with her, and have very valid reasons why I carry a loaded gun.

However, I don't see why we should blame this individual. Some couples are swingers, or like to add an extra person. Just because the relationship isn't monogomous doesn't mean it's a problem.

The issue, in this case, largely appears to be the holster, and possibly the choice of attire. A proper kydex or leather holster, or even a think nylon holster, would have prevented this tragedy. A cloth holster like an Uncle Mike's is basically just something that holds the gun in place and is NOT a safety device.

 

[bikerdoc]

Interal affairs might sort it out. Until then it is a media complicit BS coverup story.

 

[Pilot]

However, I don't see why we should blame this individual. Some couples are swingers, or like to add an extra person. Just because the relationship isn't monogomous doesn't mean it's a problem.

I hear what you are saying, but if the individual hadn't "grabbed" or "hugged" the cop none of this would have happened. If he invited her to grab him, then he is part of the causality. The holster may have contributed, but the individuals caused the discharge, not the holster or gun.

 

[Skribs]

I hear what you are saying, but if the individual hadn't "grabbed" or "hugged" the cop none of this would have happened. If he invited her to grab him, then he is part of the causality. The holster may have contributed, but the individuals caused the discharge, not the holster or gun.

If he is concealed carrying, then she had no way of knowing that grabbing him would result in her touching a firearm. Their actions may have contributed to the accident, but the reason I look for the fault is to learn - how do we prevent this? So is the answer:
1) Do not ever touch another person while they have clothes on, for fear that they might have a pistol and it might discharge.
-or-
2) Use a holster that prevents manipulation of the trigger while the pistol is holstered.

I think option 2 is a more realistic bet, and more likely to prevent ADs from happening. After all, it doesn't have to be a finger in the trigger guard to cause problems.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Yeah, but he knew.

How about don't do the body-grind boogie with strange women while you've got a gun on?

Since we've delved into open marriage arrangements and swinging, I'm pulling up my pants and leaving.

 

[wdyasq]

http://www.windstream.net/news/read.php?rip_id=<[email protected]>&ps=931

Still trying to figure out this one but.....

"The gun's angle also is at question, according to David Balash, a former Michigan State Police firearms examiner.

"What's going to be very important here is the angle of the entry of the wound to the victim (and) if there is in fact any gunpowder residue," Balash said. "I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding how a weapon that's pointed at the ground can be turned literally 110 degrees minimum to be in an upward position to strike someone.""

Ron

 

[Fanfare Ends]

"The grieving mother asks: "If you’re at a party, why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?”"

"Where is Detroit?", Alex..

 

[mgkdrgn]

Bill Clinton might be able to explain how it happened...

ahhhhh yep

 

[230RN]

"It depends on what your definition of 110 degrees is."

I'm just being frivolous, but I couldn't resist. It sure is a wierd one. My sympathy to all concerned.

I'm not too familiar with the Glock series, but I know that with one well-used full-cock striker fired .22 pistol I have, it is possible to fire it by manipulating the slide.

Due to wear between the striker and its channel and the slide and the frame, there is enough clearance for the striker to slip off the sear and discharge the cartridge. It can also happen if the pistol is dropped on its slide, as I know from (unloaded) experimentation. One of these days I'm going to saw the damned thing in half and be done with it. It's a cheapie Sterling, but I wonder if the same thing can happen with poly-framed guns. (No, I'm not knocking Glocks or the new S&W M&P or others.)

So I'm thinking maybe something like that had something to do with the tragedy. Just a little twist or uplift of the slide off the frame, and bang.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Skribs]

There still is "no justification" for her daughter's death, said McNair, 44.

This isn't a shooting where the claim is that it was justified, the claim is that it was an accident. I don't think anyone is claiming that her daughter's death was justified.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you go to any party in the present day frequented by late teenagers to early twenties, the music will probably be some form of dance, house, or hip-hop. The style of dancing will be grinding, or as a casual observer would describe it - dry humping.

The term they use at school dances is "freaking"...as in "Freak dancing will not be allowed"...so teachers are no longer walking around with rulers

There are also several dances which entail bending at the knees...as in doing a squat...much like the old Limbo dances

 

[orionengnr]

If a badge is involved the tendency to try to "clean things up" is no different than if a citizen is involved.

Au Contraire, Pierre. If a badge is involved, the tendency is multiplied by a factor of 10...at the minimum.

I predict that we will never hear a satisfactory explanation of what actually happened.

--Greiving mom will get paid off to the tune of several million at taxpayer expense.
--Officer will remain "suspended with pay" for a period of time...then be re-instated.
--No harm (well, not much, unless you are the victim), no foul (unless you are a taxpayer).

Nothing to see here, move along folks...

Do I sound cynical? Or just wise to the ways of the world?

 

[Centurian22]

Very tragic, very curious. I, as others have said would like to know what / how this really happened.

 

[Pilot]

2) Use a holster that prevents manipulation of the trigger while the pistol is holstered.

I think option 2 is a more realistic bet, and more likely to prevent ADs from happening. After all, it doesn't have to be a finger in the trigger guard to cause problems.

Agreed. The holster may have contributed. We will probably never know the truth though.

I predict that we will never hear a satisfactory explanation of what actually happened.

--Greiving mom will get paid off to the tune of several million at taxpayer expense.
--Officer will remain "suspended with pay" for a period of time...then be re-instated.
--No harm (well, not much, unless you are the victim), no foul (unless you are a taxpayer).

^^^^^^^This. That is why the mother is demonizing the gun and possible negligence by cop for having a loaded gun on at his own party. It will come down to money in the end. Always does.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Maybe they were playing Twister and didn't want to fess up.

I've never heard it called playing Twister but every time in my life a "dance" got that interesting I sure wasn't in public still and I sure made sure I had time to take my gun off.

As to why an off duty leo would carry a loaded weapon, well I know we are talking about a grieving mother but that is a borderline silly question.

 

[Skribs]

How about don't do the body-grind boogie with strange women while you've got a gun on?

I'm wondering if he had a better holster if he could have still had fun to his heart's content without a safety issue.

Man with no name, Twister is a game where someone spins a wheel while everyone else is on a mat with different colored circles. When the wheel lands on a color/limb, you have to put that limb on that color circle, which often involves twisting and contorting your body. Fun game for kids because its a bit silly, fun game for adults because of the close proximity and awkward positions.

 

[Greg528iT]

How about this? He's standing there, she comes up hugs him around the waist, pulling him backwards.. as he steps back to regain balance, her legs tuck between his and she starts to fall back. He continues to back up, she continues to fall, reaching and grabbing for a hand hold, finds the gun. This now puts the officer standing over her, her near parallel to the floor UNDER the muzzle of the gun. ??????????????

Though I would imagine that grabbing at the gun while falling like that would likely put the bullet in the officers buttock.

 

[pikid89]

Interesting scenario greg...having been to several college parties where people were highly intoxicated, i can see that exact scenario working out