Disagreement with a customer today at work

[Echo9]

So today at work I was talking with a customer, helping him decide on his first handgun. I was giving him (what I believe to be) the pros and cons of the Glock.

At some point, I began explaining that a Glock is capable of firing out of battery, and why.

BTW. I do not want this thread to turn into: "Glocks are perfect." / "Glocks are garbage." I have my own opinions.

As I was explaining everything with a Glock 23 in my hands, a guy who'd been checking out the display guns chimed in. He told me that a Glock is not capable of firing out of battery, and that they are not nearly as handload-sensitive as some believe (although he did admit to having a friend who lost part of his hand to a Glock KB).

I showed and explained to him how and why Glocks can fire out of battery. He then pulled his own Glock from an IWB holster, removed the loaded magazine and put it on the counter -- prompting me to tell him to get the live ammo off the counter immediately. Where I work, that is absolutely not allowed. But that's not the point.

He told me that he'd been carrying and shooting that Glock for 17 years without any servicing whatsoever -- not even a new recoil spring (which is kind of an important factor, as far as out-of-battery firing goes). So of course I asked him how often he shoots it, and he said at least 100 rounds a week. For 17 years. With no servicing or part replacement, and factory ammunition only.

He then produced a business card. This guy teaches a local gun safety/CCW course covering pistols, rifles and shotguns. And he's a LEO.

But c'mon. Seventeen years? What do you guys think? My feeling is that this guy's just a big Glock fan, and was defending his babies.

Oh, and we actually ended up getting along OK, and chatted about a few things.

 

[Geno]

At 5,200 rounds per year, times 17 years, that's 88,400 rounds. And no service? Not even a spring? And to clarify, "at least 100 rounds a week".

I like my Glocks...a lot, and my Colts. But wow, that's a tall glass a water for me to drink.

 

[highorder]

But wow, that's a tall glass a water for me to drink.

You said it, Geno.

I've worked in a few shops, and the rule, "no handling hot weapons" is always strictly enforced. I don't care if you're LEO, a friend, or anyone else.

I don't doubt his lack of service, but I don't buy the round count.

 

[kingmt]

Less then 100000 rounds? I would expect 5000 out of any of them but 100000 I would think it would have to have been replace a few times.

ETA: weeks*rounds*years ~ 56*100*17=95200

 

[Echo9]

Actually, I just remembered that his Glock was a gen 3. Were they even available 17 years ago?

 

[highorder]

Were they even available 17 years ago?

No. A few parts of butinski's story don't hold water.

 

[Echo9]

Yeah. Man, it really bothers me that this guy teaches beginners.

 

[Big Bill]

I think you shouldn't argue with your customers. Even if the guy was wrong, what good did it do you? Did you make the sale?

 

[Echo9]

I think you shouldn't argue with your customers. Even if the guy was wrong, what good did it do you? Did you make the sale?

That's a broad statement. I once had a kid looking at a Sig Mosquito. I explained everything I knew about the gun, and he then asked me if, since the round is so small, he and his friends can shoot at each other with it. This kid was positive that a .22LR was harmless because "this one guy I know" told him so. Everyone seems to have a "this one guy I know." I hate that guy.

I will always make at least one attempt to correct a customer, like when a guy complained that we had no side by sides that held more than two shells.

If someone swears up and down that it's A-OK to fire an AR-50 with a Leupold VX-1 on it, I'm going to argue. Regardless of how unfriendly the guy is, I don't want him to end up with scope lens pieces in his eyes.

That said, I work in a large retail store. Making a sale is not my goal. My goals are to help people find the right gun for them, and to help beginners. I routinely advise customers who are 100% new to guns in every way to NOT buy a firearm till they've had more experience, like at a range that rents.

If someone absolutely wants to buy a gun, it is my job to sell it to them. But if you don't know the trigger from the muzzle, I'd rather not.

 

[David E]

In 1980, Gaston Glock began developing a gun. By 1982, the Austrian Army had adopted it for their sidearm,so the gun has been available for 27 years.

It began being imported to the USA around 1984, so the guy in question could've bought it as late as 1992.

Perhaps the OP could remember what generation it was to further confirm/disqualify his 17 yr claim.

 

[NG VI]

You sound like you are on point, however I am not really clear on the whole Glock firing out of battery thing. My two have not done that, and I have not heard that it was possible, extremely rare catastrophic mechanical failure notwithstanding. How does that happen?

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

hmm not sure i buy this LEO's story. i'm sure his dept requires routine maintenance which includes regularly changing out the recoil spring. plus there's just no way a gun is going to function properly without a recoil spring change in 90,000 rounds.

 

[Echo9]

hmm not sure i buy this LEO's story. i'm sure his dept requires routine maintenance which includes regularly changing out the recoil spring. plus there's just no way a gun is going to function properly without a recoil spring change in 90,000 rounds.

I should clarify: He had a badge in his wallet. He could actually be a mall cop for all I know.

 

[memphisjim]

56 weeks in a year?

 

[Echo9]

You sound like you are on point, however I am not really clear on the whole Glock firing out of battery thing. My two have not done that, and I have not heard that it was possible, extremely rare catastrophic mechanical failure notwithstanding. How does that happen?

First of all, to my knowledge, Glocks do not have a disconnector (or a disconnector that functions the way most do). I may be incorrect -- if so, someone please tell me. There are definitely people here who know more than I do. But I'll say that blow-up diagrams of Glocks do not list anything as a "disconnector."

Ok, so as I understand it, the connector in a Glock, which contacts the striker, cocks the striker about 60% of the way when the slide is racked. The trigger pull retracts the striker the last 40% before disengaging and firing the gun. That's a good amount of travel, and if the recoil spring has weakened or is otherwise too light, the connector itself can very slightly retract the slide when the trigger is pressed, pulling the weapon out of battery.

If the breech block is still close enough to the breech face that the firing pin will reach the chamber, the primer will be struck while the slide is open.

Off-center primer taps are a giveaway.

 

[NG VI]

I think the recoil spring would have to be incredibly weak, like so weak it wouldn't function the pistol, and wouldn't slow the recoil forces down any significant amount, for that to happen. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine a recoil system getting that weak without the user noticing hundreds or thousands of rounds before that, maybe tens and tens of thousands of rounds.

 

[NG VI]

And that customer sounds like kind of a tool. I haven't replaced recoil springs in any of my pistols, but I have a pretty broad selection of overlapping guns and I am young and often poor, so none of them get the range time to neccessitate a spring change. But 70-90K rounds on the original spring setup? 17 years without replacements? Why?

 

[GigaBuist]

In 1980, Gaston Glock began developing a gun. By 1982, the Austrian Army had adopted it for their sidearm,so the gun has been available for 27 years.

It began being imported to the USA around 1984, so the guy in question could've bought it as late as 1992.

Perhaps the OP could remember what generation it was to further confirm/disqualify his 17 yr claim.

The OP identified it as 3rd gen which would make its birthday no earlier than 1998.

Source: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412093

 

[W.E.G.]

Here is the dead-giveaway mark you will see on primers when the Glock striker falls while the gun not in full battery.

Distinguish "not in full battery" from "out of battery."
Because of the design of the Glock, the striker will not be fully "cocked" until the gun is in full battery AND the trigger is pulled fully to the rear. In the very unlikely event that the striker would be released while the gun is not in full battery, the force of the striker would be much less than the amount of force presented when striker falls under normal firing conditions.

This animation helps to visualize what I'm saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e_3Ihpq9T4

Neither of these rounds fired.
(which is why they were recovered)
In each case, I believe the shooter limp-wristed the shot, causing the slide on the brand-new Glock to return to just a tiny bit short of full battery.

So, you can see, the Glock slide really needs to be in FULL battery, and the trigger pulled in order to avoid these off-center primer-strike misfires.

 

[David E]

Regardless of the Generation Glock, the customer was and is a complete and utter buffoon.

 

[Newton]

I also doubt the comment about knowing someone who had a piece of their hand blown off by a Glock KB.

I've seen a lot of Glock KB reports (not one with a 9mm BTW) and apart from some bruising and a couple of nasty cuts, I have yet to see a hand blown apart by one.

(But if you do know of a bad one send me a link - it's a personal research project).

 

[Echo9]

Ok, I'm with you there, and thanks for explaining that. I'm doing a lot of typing.

"In the very unlikely event that the striker would be released while the gun is not in full battery, the force of the striker would be much less than the amount of force presented when striker falls under normal firing conditions."

But wouldn't the amount of force from an out-of-battery primer strike depend on just how out of battery it is? If the action is open just a little bit -- say a mm or two, I think it would have enough force to pop the primer. Many people claim to have witnessed this.

Sadly, there isn't really any empirical data. I guess there never is.

 

[Echo9]

I'm sorry, Newton... my conversation with the guy was pretty long, I abbreviated that part.

Apparently the guy whose Glock blew up lost a decent amount of skin from his index finger and thumb.

He said something like "he lost of lot of skin in here," while gesturing clearly from the tip of his thumb, along the web of his hand, and then up to the tip of his index finger.

But like you said.... This may not be true. Mister 80K rounds doesn't have loads of credibility.

 

[REAPER4206969]

If someone swears up and down that it's A-OK to fire an AR-50 with a Leupold VX-1 on it

Whats wrong with the VX-1?

 

[REAPER4206969]

Chuck Taylor has a documented 250,000 rounds through his G17.