Disappointing Incident in Gun Store

[Lord Teapot]

you're right, but you're also on private property, and so have no right to tell someone what to do on it. i would have left, and contacted the manager of the store later to report the incident, so he or she can better train the employees. i would also leave to get the heck away from an ignorant woman brandishing a firearm in the company of two idiots.

 

[Sam1911]

Tirod's message is important.

Your own social skills control about 90% of how your message will be received. You have to read the situation and use the tactic that will most get the message through successfully.

In some cases it is the (polite, cheerful) authority figure and/or elder.

In some cases it is the firm, authoritative drill instructor type.

In some cases it's the friendly peer, "Hey buddy! Don't like to butt in, but you should think about ..."

In some cases it very well may be a bit of a display: Hands up, big dodge out of the way, "WOAH! Look out! Don't point that at people!" A bit of public spectacle can make it very hard for anyone (including the reluctant clerk) to refute what you're shining a spotlight on.

Lots of ways to speak up. Pick one that you think appropriate to the situation. But pick one. It is important. Silence is cowardice, and hurts us all.

 

[Sam1911]

you're right, but you're also on private property, and so have no right to tell someone what to do on it.

Not exactly. Unless asked to leave, you have EVERY right to say whatever you want. You don't have the right to FORCE someone to act the way you want. But you certainly have the right to speak your mind. And in this, you SHOULD.

 

[boatdoc173]

While waiting at a carwash yesterday, I had some time to kill and decided to browse a local gun store across the street. After being there for about 5 minutes, I noticed a woman who was shopping for a pistol with who I assumed to be her husband, pointing and dry firing the gun in
The direction of other customers in the store, including a child. I almost couldn't believe my eyes at first, and the store clerk helping them didn't seem to care. I walked over and said "please do me and all of us a favor and stop pointing that all over the store, there are safe directions here where you can do that," and pointed a few of them out. Well, neither her, the husband, or the clerk were very happy with me, and I caught an earful, including several expletives, from all of them. I maintained my composure and explained how I wasn't trying to to be a jerk, but just wasn't comfortable with the way she was handling the firearm, however it was falling on deaf ears. The clerk actually demanded that I walk away, which I did after stating once more to "please just be safe."

I'm sure these kind of things happen all too often at gun stores, shows, etc., as I witness it all the time, but as an instructor I sometimes feel obligated to say something when I see it. The problem is, no matter how polite I try to be, it rarely end wells. I understand that the store clerk was trying to make a sale, but safety shouldn't be sacrificed during the process.

So, what do others see and think? Do you witness these kind of things, and what, if anything, do you do about it? To be honest I'm so fed up and exhausted with this kind of crap that I'm considering just staying away from most gun stores and all gun shows in their entirety.

this is typical these days. NO ONE takes responsibility for their actions. The liars(lawyers) promote thi s kind of behavior. It is always someone elses fault when things happen. sheesh


To make matters worse, people act out because you ask them(nicely) to be safe or do the right thing!!!! That is why I posted a ? recently about a range incident where an older man and his 20s something kid were mishandling a shot gun,pointing it at us while pounding the stock on the ground(to free a stuck cartridge--) guess we were bless he did not kill us. NO one did a thing about this guy.

With all the road rage and other BS in this world, you have to be very careful who and how you approach the jerks of this world I guess

 

[TimSr]

Nobody wants to be publically scolded, and they are likely to respond with hostility. Sometimes even people who should know better need to be reminded. You certainly have a right to speak up if a gun is pointed at you. I simply politely, and quietly ask "Please don't point that in my direction". Don't make a scene and don't embarass somebody, and they will usually comply with your request.

While you can ask him to not point a gun in your direction, it is not your job or responsibility to train a store employee. It is your responsibility to PRIVATELY bring unsafe practices to the attention of management, NOT in front of the employee or especially customers. I'm sure they would want to know. To walk out, and never return without letting them know why is pointless.

 

[boatdoc173]

rather than say I am sorry and do the right thing --you were treated to the big mouths and no brains special

 

[boatdoc173]

sounds like the OP did just that @Tim. Today morons act out rather than consider themselves at fault and apologize or just do the right thing

 

[Captains1911]

Was the customer and clerk wrong in the way the gun was handled?

Yes. Regardless that they both may be absolutely perfect in checking for an empty chamber their entire lives.

Was the OP right in pointing out their behavior was not safe?

Yes.

Now we get to the "how successful was that?"

Not very. He explained his credentials, what the problem was, and was still cussed for doing it. What we have is a public who despises authority and isn't not impressed by busybodies who intrude in their behavior. This is America NOW, not what you grew up with, or how you would like things to be.

"I'm a credentialed firearms instructor who knows safety." is perceived as "I'm in authority and you lesser beings need to heed my commands." I don't think the OP intended to communicate that message, but the reaction seems to indicate there was far too much of that between the lines for the recipients. Like it or not, the message, posture, and behavior was intrusive and was taken as being overly demanding.

It's how the message is perceived, not how the speaker thinks he's saying it.

You can be right as rain, with angels backing you up armed with lightning bolts and the heavens opened up shining glory around you - half the population in America will take it WRONG. To them you'd be a nosy busybody in a shiny suit demanding allegiance to your personal cult of self worship.

You didn't intend that - the message was received that way and Instant Fail. Get the @#$% out of here was the answer.

Can we police the entire world? There are those who would say that isn't the appropriate mission internationally for our Armed Forces, and they might have a point.

Can we police newbs with poor safety habits in every gun store? APPARENTLY NOT. Something has to change to get the message across, because the message of gun safety is more important than anything else.

Some parts of what was said were not taken well, Ok. Don't use those phrases in the future as they are RED FLAGS that distort the meaning of what you say.

"I'm a trained instructor." NO. Sorry, it's elevating your status up front when safety is the important factor. Anyone should be able to point out the problem, and what "rank" they have is the LEAST important factor. A ten year old should be able to point out bad gun handling habits and get the message across.

"You are pointing the gun wrong." We don't have the literal explanation but the people seem to have gotten that idea, at least in the way they reacted. It's too blunt for modern society. It might be short and to the point - but it still wasn't taken well.

We are trying to get the message across, not trying to "instruct" others. Them getting the message and altering their behavior is the goal. We need to use other motivators to do it.

Like, "I'm sorry to butt in, but a customer is concerned about having a gun pointed at him and the trigger getting pulled." In and out. Walk away and leave discreetly. Do not turn around and get eye contact. Message delivered and move out.

You want to follow up later, call and talk with the manager. Act as if you were another customer and leave the same message - don't set yourself up to be identified as the Bad Guy Intrusive Range Nazi who is demanding obedience to The Holy Rules. It's just another data point to the owner - he gets a lot noise over the counter every day, he needs more positive feedback that gun handling needs review. Aiming guns at customers and pulling triggers is a Bad Thing.

It's making the situation confrontational that distorts the message of Safety and which makes the general shooting public become more and more obtuse about it. All too often it's said that male shooters are hard to teach - and the large majority of instructors will say gender makes no difference. What they are really saying is males get into an locker room measuring contest to see who is the Alpha - and let's be honest, "certified shooting instructor" tends to start that. Whether they are attempting to do that we don't know. What is true is that most other males THINK they are - perception - and regardless of what the instructor thinks, everything he says will be perceived in that frame of reference.

That is why someone with the best intentions for safety gets told off - the message content was dressed in the wrong words and body language. If it was done right the customers would have simply said "thank you" and things would have turned out better.

If you ARE a certified instructor and you see bad gun handling habits being perpetrated, is it more important the offenders know you have a higher status, or is the point to get them to stop doing it? Start thinking about the message and delivering it successfully. I can guarantee they could care less about your qualifications. What they need to care about is being dangerous around others and how you communicate that well enough to make them want to change their behavior.

Good thoughts. Just for the record though I did not say anything to them regarding my credentials.

 

[ColonelAngus]

To the OP's original scenario... those 3 idiots who cursed him out are probably carrying right now:banghead:... scary, DAMN scary!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

The Four Rules apply ALL the time...not just under certain circumstances.

Even when dry-firing, the gun is assumed to be loaded and therefore must be pointed in a safe direction.

Had this been me, I would likely have responded similarly. Had I gotten lambasted like you did, I would have similarly withdrawn...and then called the store owner and talked to him about it. He, after all, is the one liable for everything that happens in his store and he's very likely to be receptive.

 

[Ironicaintit]

You could return to the store with a huge wad of cash...explain to them what you saw, and how you were treated when pointing it out. Remind them that they should encourage good habits...but since they dont, well then the big pile o'bills will get spent somewhere more responsible!
Its an idea.... Lost profits may make them think

 

[sarge83]

At the gun/pawn I frequent sadly they never check to see if a firearm is loaded when they hand one to a customer. Each time I look at a firearm the first thing I do is point in safe direction and check the chamber. If swept by customer I will say something or move immediately.

 

[zb338]

You were well within your rights to say something. A lot of people think that
the clerks in gun stores are the most gun savvy people on earth, and the
clerks themselves start to think they are. The truth is that many of the salesmen
are just guys off the street that don't know a heck of a lot about anything.

Zeke

 

[grter]

What is the name of this store maybe the owner needs to find out how many people appreciate the way he does business.

First off I have to say it's the response that these people gave that pisses me off more than the indescretion.

Do these people think that they and everyone else around them are children ! That they can just pick up a lethal weapon and randomly point it at strangers and their kids without any reperussions!

I might have just called the cops and see what they have to say about it since they didn't seem to mind their dangerous acts or make any effort to correct them.

Some states may have laws against this type of behaviour.

When I was a kid I asked to be taught how to shoot in a state where it was legal and the first thing I was told is they would not mind but if I ever pointed the gun at them or anyone regardless of whether it was loaded or not I was going to get punched in the face.

It was meant as a friendly warning in a culture back when, well, I guess when people took that fact that an accident with a firearm can take an irreplacable life.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

One thing I have to point out (2 really).

Whatever the OP said and HOW EVER he said it was enough to get ALL THREE of the people he talked to cussing madd.

And by his own admission this is the USUAL outcome when he involves himself in such situations.

Maybe it's time to work on the delivery

 

[natman]

You folks should have lived in the 50's & 60's.

We have gotten sloppy in more ways than just dress.

A lot of us DID live during the '50s and '60s. I would have taken exception to having a gun pointed at me too.

Stupid hasn't changed since then.

 

[phil dirt]

There are plenty of nutcases out there, these days, and any one of them could slip a round into a mag or a revolver. I hope this isn't the only gun shop in your area. I personally would not enter it again.

 

[OpticsPlanet]

Unfortunately, it does happen far more often than it should...

I would expect the customer(s) to be flippant and defensive, that just seems to be par for the course of your average gun owner

But the employee being dismissive and unconcerned would've bothered me much more. I get that you "interrupted" his sale but that doesn't excuse his lax safety. The only way new shooters will learn (especially those who don't make it a priority to educate themselves) is by those of us in the community (especially with standing/authority/industry empowerment) forcing them to become educated (since we can no longer carry the burden of their neglect/lack of caring).

I would mention it to the manager. I am sure your repeat business is worth more than a first time buyers.

-Matt S.

 

[sdlsaginaw]

"please do me and all of us a favor and stop pointing that all over the store"

This probably started the whole thing out on the wrong foot. It sounds confrontational and made everyone defensive.

Probably the best bet would have been simple. "I'm sorry, but could you please point it in that safe direction while you're trying it?".

If that gets a negative response, "I just don't want you on the news saying 'It wasn't supposed to be loaded!'" and walk away.

That whole honey/vinegar insect thing you know.

 

[Quentin]

Once the conversation turned sour you could have said if you don't believe me, then please take a look at the safety instructions the manufacturer packed in the box with THAT gun you're holding.

 

[stonecutter2]

And yet you keep doing it. Has anyone ever told you the story about insanity being defined as repeating a given action over and over and expecting a different outcome?



Ok but who empowered you to enforce them in someone else's place of business?

It's been my experience that people don't take kindly to random people interjecting themselves into their business so as a general rule I don't

I'm positive none of those people knew (or cared) that you were an instructor and even if they did it wasn't your house or your place to correct the employee as he made perfectly clear.

The older I get the more I am convinced that no one is going to change their behavior because some random stranger (me) tells them they should. So I either mind my own business or, if the behavior is extremely egregious, I leave.

Luckily my favorite gun shop is right next to my favorite used bookstore. If I can't go to the one I go to the other.

Regardless of location, when someone points a gun at me or someone in my immediate vicinity, it becomes my business.

I have no desire to be shot by some fool, or watch some random guy, woman or kid suffer a bullet wound because I didn't say anything.

You just never know.

I entered a gun show in the immediate aftermath of someone firing a Mini-14 that was loaded for whatever reason. It was not a pleasant experience. I saw and spoke to the people who saw it all happen right in front of them. I do not want to ever look like that in my life, if I can avoid it.

 

[stonecutter2]

you're right, but you're also on private property, and so have no right to tell someone what to do on it. i would have left, and contacted the manager of the store later to report the incident, so he or she can better train the employees. i would also leave to get the heck away from an ignorant woman brandishing a firearm in the company of two idiots.

In my opinion, this is less about "rights" and more about doing what is right. I don't need some law or constitution backing me up to lay down some common sense goodness that could prevent a disaster.

As for me, if I walked out of that store and said nothing, heard a bang, then found out someone was mistakenly shot, I would feel terrible for not putting a word in to encourage safer practices. I guess it depends on your conscience and perspective, but as for me, I couldn't just keep my mouth shut and leave.

As others have said, tread lightly and be tactful and respectful, but I was a noob once, and I highly value the advice and information provided to me by others (not the least of which has been here at THR).

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

"please do me and all of us a favor and stop pointing that all over the store"

This probably started the whole thing out on the wrong foot. It sounds confrontational and made everyone defensive.

Confrontational or not, the fact remains that a SERIOUS violation of the basic rules of gun safety was occurring.

Just exactly how politically correct and polite should a person be? How would YOU feel if you looked up and saw somebody not just sweeping you, bit pointing and pulling the trigger of a gun at you, or maybe a child of yours?

We, myself included, were pretty calm with our responses here...but I can also see how somebody just MIGHT have yelled "GUN! GET DOWN!" as they dove for cover or took their daughter or son to the floor.

And THAT would have been quite the scene, I guarantee you, and easily justified under the circumstances.

I brook NO unsafe behaviors from my family and friends when we're handling firearms...why should I, or anybody else, do so with strangers?

If these people can't handle a "please do me and all of us a favor and stop pointing that all over the store, there are safe directions here where you can do that", then they can bugger off, as far as I'm concerned, and I'll be happy to go to places where the safety of me and mine is treated accordingly.

I'll be polite when people aren't pointing a gun at my child.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

The Four Rules apply ALL the time...not just under certain circumstances.

Even when dry-firing, the gun is assumed to be loaded and therefore must be pointed in a safe direction.

Had this been me, I would likely have responded similarly. Had I gotten lambasted like you did, I would have similarly withdrawn...and then called the store owner and talked to him about it. He, after all, is the one liable for everything that happens in his store and he's very likely to be receptive.

I will take it one step further, I personally think the most important rule is #2 don't point it anything you are not willing to destroy. I don't even like over under shot guns that are broken open pointing at me.

 

[SSN Vet]

I've had one similar experience at a very large sporting goods store with a most excellent shooting goods department... Kittery Trading Post...

Very, very busy weekend in December and some dope in his early 20's was pulling shot guns off of the racks and striking Rambo poses, while two teeny bopper girls were snapping pics of him on their cell phones.

After the second time he waved the muzzle past me (and several others standing in line at the register) I said to the clerk (young gall in her teens) in LOUD voice... so everyone nearby could hear " if that moron points that thing at me one more time I'm going to shove it up his @ss"

The clerk's jaw dropped, the other customers in line looked up from their stupor with a "what's going on?" look, the dope didn't even notice, and two older clerks came running over from a different counter and escorted the dope out of the department.

Sometimes ya need to get loud and indignant.