Disappointing Incident in Gun Store

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

"please do me and all of us a favor and stop pointing that all over the store"

This probably started the whole thing out on the wrong foot. It sounds confrontational and made everyone defensive.

Probably the best bet would have been simple. "I'm sorry, but could you please point it in that safe direction while you're trying it?".

If that gets a negative response, "I just don't want you on the news saying 'It wasn't supposed to be loaded!'" and walk away.

That whole honey/vinegar insect thing you know.

This is exactly right. People don't tend to respond well to public humiliation. It probably wasn't your intent, but those words could easily be taken as more of a chastising than trying to teach someone.

It sounds like this woman doesn't have a great deal of firearms experience. It can be an intimidating experience for someone to go into a gun store for the first time, particularly for a woman because there is already a old boys club feel to many of the LGS. In all honesty it is this exact scenario that makes new people anxious enough to deter them from taking an interest in firearms. You go into this situation where you don't know all the lingo, you don't all the people, you are handling these objects that you know have the ability to take a human life. That is a lot for a newbie to process. Your fear is that any second someone is going to yell at you for doing something wrong. Chastising them isn't going to build any bridges to getting new people interested in firearms. While many may not care to be polite or educate anyone, consider it doing your part to lobby for gun rights. The more people that are interested the more ability you will have to enjoy your freedoms in the future. A smile and a "Hi there, can I ask a favor? I know you probably don't realize it, but you're pointing that gun at me. While you may have checked it...etc." Do it as quietly as you can and don't feel like you need to make an example out of them to everyone around them.

The real problem here is the store employee. If you are going to work at a gun store you better not only know how to handle guns with extreme care, but you had better get over the fear of telling people what to do a long time ago. You need to consider yourself as much of a gun safety instructor as a gun salesman. You need to learn the art of politely educating people how to safely handle and correcting them when they aren't in compliance.

All of this discussion about publicly chastising people, calling the police, shoving things were the sun don't shine and kicking people out of the store is exactly why many who would love to learn more about firearms and shooting chose not to get involved. Like I said, it can be an intimidating experience for those who don't have the knowledge. Instead of taking it as an opportunity to be offended, make a scene, or show someone how much more you know than them, I suggest extending some consideration, stand firmly but kindly behind your principles, and truly teach them as opposed to pushing them out the door.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Regardless of location, when someone points a gun at me or someone in my immediate vicinity, it becomes my business.

Go back and read the OP no one pointed any gun at the OP, in fact it doesn't appear that anyone even pointed a gun in the OP's direction.

If someone pointed a gun at me then yes I would ask them not to, beyond that not my circus, not my monkeys

 

[old lady new shooter]

You guys are making me nervous.

Awhile back Old Fuff suggested I try going to a gun show to look at and trying holding a possibly larger variety of guns than are sold at the local gun stores, now this coming weekend there is finally a show more or less within driving distance... but you guys are scaring me, do people really come there with guns to trade without unloading them first?

 

[Sam1911]

do people really come there with guns to trade without unloading them first?

It is rare but it happens. A google search would bring up plenty of new reports of negligent ("accidental") shots fired at gun shows and in gun stores.

Be vigilant, but not scared. You've been around here long enough, and read and thought about the fundamental rules long enough, to be fully able to know when something isn't right and to speak up for yourself (and all of us!) if you need to.

As for physical danger, i.e.: being shot by someone several tables over who does something horribly negligent, the odds are still far more likely you'd be killed in a car wreck on the way to the show. A body can only worry so much about things beyond their view and control.

 

[Gun Master]

Disappointing? - Try Scary !

Been there. Done that.

Please take my advise. Don't return there. Ever !

 

[MIL-DOT]

A couple years ago, I was in the big local gunstore here in Columbus,Ga., talking to one of the sales guys at the counter, when he observes two young soldiers from Ft. Benning next to me, one of which was open carrying. He tells them they have a sign at the door that says no loaded firearms,concealed or otherwise.
The soldier-boy says something stupid like, ''my bad, I'll unload it'', and pulls it out of the holster, racking the slide but forgeting to drop the magazine, so he just chambered a fresh round, which gets both him and the sales guy a little flustered. While all this is happening, I realize the guy has the pistol largely aimed at my lower right side from about 2 feet away, and I say something like, "holy <removed>, dude!!" and start dancing sideways trying to get away from this nimrod as fast as I can.

 

[Old Dog]

Anyplace where there's a collection of guns for sale, be it a local gun shop, a big box retailer, a pawnshop or a gun show -- there will be egregious gun-handling. Why are some here always surprised by that fact?

 

[bocefus78]

I went to a shop that just opened a month ago. Guy behind the counter had a broken hand in a cast and couldn't check or clear anything.

I asked to see a g43. He hands it to me, no trigger lock, and THEN asks me if I could show him it was clear after I already could have caused an incident.

Whiskey tango foxtrot? Why was he not on register duty?

Anyway, point is that there are all kinds of idiots in the world. That guy and his manager were both idiots. Removing yourself from said situations is all you can do. Sometimes safety tips fall on deaf ears.

 

[bocefus78]

It is rare but it happens. A google search would bring up plenty of new reports of negligent ("accidental") shots fired at gun shows and in gun stores.

Be vigilant, but not scared. You've been around here long enough, and read and thought about the fundamental rules long enough, to be fully able to know when something isn't right and to speak up for yourself (and all of us!) if you need to.

As for physical danger, i.e.: being shot by someone several tables over who does something horribly negligent, the odds are still far more likely you'd be killed in a car wreck on the way to the show. A body can only worry so much about things beyond their view and control.

I hear there is a shop in my state (havent been there...hours away) that has a jar full of all the bullets that came out of guns that were allegedly unloaded by customers. It's on display, I'm assuming as a reminder to all.

 

[pockets]

Heck, the last gun I purchased from a large local shop...the guy behind the counter couldn't even figure out how to check to see if it was loaded or not.
Nothing exotic, a common Beretta tip-up barrel, of which there were a dozen in the display case. He kept trying to rack the slide (and kept failing for some weird reason).
I finally asked if I could show him the 'easy' way, reached over and moved the barrel release lever to pop the thing open.
"Oooohhhhh, so that's how it works!".

Well DUH! I haven't gone back there since.

 

[Tirod]

There are few experts in gun handling who can demonstrate perfect behavior. That's the goal - where YOU are is something we have to guess at.

In the last year of my service, mobilized, I was watching some Marines practicing gun handling skills while in "Ranger" file and still learned something new. 22 years of skills based training but for the most part, soldiers don't get all the memos.

For those who suggest they were just fine with being jerks about someone else's gun handling, do whatever. You become the example others will discuss behind your back. Is safety important - yes. Is being a jerk and getting into a locker room measuring contest, in public, to force others to behave to your specific standard the best way to do the job?

How would you like it? Because I can guarantee that despite the elevated status any one of us thinks they have attained in gun handling skills, there's ALWAYS somebody more expert. If you went to them for training and got continued negative reinforcement during the entire day's training, would you care to go back? You stupid dimwit?

See what I did there?

We are all on a different part of the "path" of learning, you can't walk until you crawl, etc. If you want to run with scissors you better expect that somebody is going to question what do you think you are doing? They don't know or care you attained Gold in Olympic Scissor Running - all they see is the bore potentially muzzling innocent targets.

There is NO ONE in this thread who's never done it. Keep that in mind when you see some "kid" playing with firearms in a public retail store. You are seeing the mass average of what can and will happen. Nobody has perfect skills the first day they pick up a gun, nobody should EVER expect to arrive at the top of the mountain. Realizing you are human and WILL make a mistake is the key to safety - not thinking you can't ever.

If you think you can't make a mistake - you're more dangerous than the newb who knows he can. Time for an attitude check.

And, yes, if you walk into any place that has guns - expect somebody to have one loaded who doesn't know it. Retail store, gun show, range, wherever - the safety rules are there because it can be loaded when we didn't think it was. That's why we have the Four Rules. The Gun Is Always Loaded because of the one time somebody forgets.

More people die from drunk drivers or someone texting. Go to the gun show knowing you are safer than the trip getting there.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

There is NO ONE in this thread who's never done it.

I agree. And when I did it, the people who caught me doing it firmly corrected me on the spot.

While we can argue the merits on how to approach this issue all day long, I can hardly believe "please do me and all of us a favor and stop pointing that all over the store, there are safe directions here where you can do that" is on the same level as appending "you dimwit" afterwards.

Yeah, I understand the differences in approach, tone, etc. is important. But then, so is pointing a gun at a group of people and pulling the trigger.

Regardless of delivery, THAT is the important thing people need to man up to (or lady up to) and focus on. Even if the approach wasn't the best in the world, the response from these people, ESPECIALLY a "professional" in the business of handling/selling firearms, was even further off base given the nature of the issue.

 

[old lady new shooter]

It is rare but it happens. A google search would bring up plenty of new reports of negligent ("accidental") shots fired at gun shows and in gun stores.

Be vigilant, but not scared. You've been around here long enough, and read and thought about the fundamental rules long enough, to be fully able to know when something isn't right and to speak up for yourself (and all of us!) if you need to.

As for physical danger, i.e.: being shot by someone several tables over who does something horribly negligent, the odds are still far more likely you'd be killed in a car wreck on the way to the show. A body can only worry so much about things beyond their view and control.

Thanks for calming me down. I guess I was having a case of learning something that didn't match my prior mental picture, in my mind a gun show would be interesting and relaxing.

Meanwhile I checked the FAQs and it says people bringing a gun to sell or trade are supposed to show it at the gun check table at the show entry, the people there will clear it and secure it with a nylon tie to disable the action, and supposedly no loaded guns and no loaded magazines are allowed at the show. The bonus was that I also saw a tip about bringing a dolly because some purchases like ammo could be pretty heavy to carry around, so I looked up the weight of .38 special and learned that 1000 rounds weighs about 29 pounds, way more than I would have guessed.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

The clerk actually demanded that I walk away

Good advice. Walk away with your wallet and never come back.

Mike

 

[stonecutter2]

Go back and read the OP no one pointed any gun at the OP, in fact it doesn't appear that anyone even pointed a gun in the OP's direction.

If someone pointed a gun at me then yes I would ask them not to, beyond that not my circus, not my monkeys

I wasn't referring to the OP's exact situation, I was stating my perspective on when I would decide things should be "my business." You asked "who empowered YOU to get involved in someone else's business?" (paraphrased)

And my perspective is - gun safety is my business wherever I am, when I witness something unsafe that upsets me. I think gun safety should be everyone's business.

I cannot fault anyone who gets involved when gun safety is jeopardized, according to their own perspective. Too many tragedies, and it feeds the anti's front pages.

If you just worry about yourself, and leave when someone's doing something dumb, that's fine. I speak up.

Your point of tact is a good one, for sure. But speaking up isn't necessarily wrong because it wasn't "his business."

 

[stonecutter2]

Awhile back Old Fuff suggested I try going to a gun show to look at and trying holding a possibly larger variety of guns than are sold at the local gun stores, now this coming weekend there is finally a show more or less within driving distance... but you guys are scaring me, do people really come there with guns to trade without unloading them first?

That does happen, at least, I've read of people seeing people bringing firearms into the show loaded and when they get checked at the door, a round pops out. But here, places make sure the chamber is empty upon entering or they put a zip tie or something on the chamber to show it's clear. Especially after the accidental discharge.

When the accidental discharge happened at the show I was at, I believe the scoop was that a guy wanted to function test the Mini 14, so he put a round in the mag, and chambered it, but didn't remove it and walked away. Next person picked it up, shouldered it, pointed it at one of the pillars in the place and squeezed the trigger. Bang.

A couple of lessons I took away, and to keep in mind:
1) If you handle anything at a show, first ensure yourself that it's unloaded. If you don't know how to clear it, ask the person to show you how to check that it's clear. Check again then yourself.
2) don't point it at anything you don't want to shoot.
3) try to avoid dry firing. I do this as a general practice at shows anyways because I don't know if that certain firearm is sensitive to/damaged by dry firing. Some are.

Keep an eye on things around you, but don't be too worried. Go and enjoy yourself!

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Your point of tact is a good one, for sure. But speaking up isn't necessarily wrong because it wasn't "his business."

Let ask this, did the OP's intervention cause the three to alter their behavior? Do you think they will be more or less likely to practice stricter muzzle discipline because of it?

 

[wojownik]

Let ask this, did the OP's intervention cause the three to alter their behavior? Do you think they will be more or less likely to practice stricter muzzle discipline because of it?

Well, hopefully the answer would be yes. Even if it were a grudging acknowledgement of the safety consideration noted by the OP.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Let ask this, did the OP's intervention cause the three to alter their behavior? Do you think they will be more or less likely to practice stricter muzzle discipline because of it?

Did they stop pointing the gun at people and pulling the trigger in the store?

If so, then mission accomplished.

Long term behavioral modification to the better is the ideal. But the short term "stop that unsafe action" is the more immediate concern.

 

[EIB0879]

I guess I'm an old fart, but I have an attitude that is pretty strict about gun safety. My first lesson was when I was 12 and on a Boy Scout rifle range. The RO/Instructor was an SFC that had just got back from Vietnam. I was the best shot in the group but anticipated the "fire" command and fired early. I got my butt chewed out.

I carried that in me into the military and later when I was teaching my kids to shoot. They understand that there is no "sorry" if you are unsafe and shoot someone accidently.

 

[Davek1977]

We're talking about guns that have never been shot (except maybe once at the factory) and/or have been compulsively checked rechecked and checked again for good measure before being put on the rack.

I don't know about you, but every gun shop here has a wide variety of USED firearms in stock, and the round count could range from a handful to several thousand. As for the checking and rechecking, unless its ME who has checked and rechecked the firearm, I don;t consider it "safe". Operating on the assumption "someone else" took care of safety issues is exactly how accidents happen.

 

[sdlsaginaw]

If the only accepted reaction to a person learning to drive a stick shift and stalling it is to chastise them, at some point you won't be able to buy one because most people will have been discouraged and dealers won't bother selling them any more.

If the only accepted reaction to a person learning about firearms and making a mistake is to chastise them, at some point you won't be able to buy one because most people will have been discouraged and will tend to vote the "common sense gun safety" lie.

I'm *not* saying dry firing a gun toward somebody is anything like stalling a stick shift.

I'm saying there is a hidden cost to taking the gruff approach with a newbie, and that cost will be paid regardless if the mitigated risk is relatively large (at a gun range) or relatively small (in a gun store).

 

[Ryanxia]

I don't put up with it either. I don't care if the minimum wage clerk checked it or if I just checked it myself, you don't point it at others (or at least at me).

 

[Lakeshore]

I had a similar experience standing at the gun counter of my friendly local Bass Pro. A salesman was showing a rifle to another customer a few feet away and he absentmindedly pointed it directly at me and clicked the trigger.

After stewing over that a couple of days I emailed the store manager. I received a very polite response stating he would take it up with the gun department guys and that it would not happen again. It hasn't (to me anyway).

 

[JTHunter]

Sam1911 said:

In some cases it very well may be a bit of a display: Hands up, big dodge out of the way, "WHOA! Look out! Don't point that at people!" A bit of public spectacle can make it very hard for anyone (including the reluctant clerk) to refute what you're shining a spotlight on.

I like this idea!
A little "theatrics" never hurt anybody!