Distance

[ATLDave]

You are using concealed carry equipment if that's what you choose to use.

Regardless, if you think learning to get fast hits with competition gear isn't helpful in learning to get fast hits with non-comp gear, then I think you're flat wrong. Your hits with non-competition gear won't be as fast as with your competition gear, but that's not the relevant question. The question is whether the hits will be faster than if you didn't compete. And the answer is very clear. Yes, you will get faster, across all contexts.

 

[Hangingrock]

And the answer is very clear. Yes, you will get faster, across all contexts.

That's your opinion which you are entitled to. Across all contexts that where I'll disagree with you.

 

[ATLDave]

Let's say you take up auto racing on the weekends. You race in dedicated racecars. You really think that, after logging a few thousand competitive laps, you wouldn't be able to drive your everyday car faster (compared to your pre-racing days) if you were required to do so?

 

[Hangingrock]

Let's say you take up auto racing on the weekends. You race in dedicated racecars. You really think that, after logging a few thousand competitive laps, you wouldn't be able to drive your everyday car faster (compared to your pre-racing days) if you were required to do so?

We are basically going to disagree on the subject related to shooting. You have your view point and I have my view point. In the end we may simply agree to disagree. Anything past that may simply be counter productive for both of us.

 

[RX-79G]

Not to be nettlesome and or argumentative but in practical shooting sports are you using the weapon that you would conceal carry, ammunition type you would utilize in self defensive applications and drawing from a concealed holster that you use for defensive carry. I realize you are getting trigger time in competition but are you utilizing competition equipment as opposed to self defense/concealed carry equipment?

That is the point of IDPA. Unless you're carrying a something smaller than 9mm.

 

[ATLDave]

We are basically going to disagree on the subject related to shooting. You have your view point and I have my view point. In the end we may simply agree to disagree. Anything past that may simply be counter productive for both of us.

Well, if your position is that you are incapable of hearing and giving consideration to new information or ideas, I'm sure you can prove yourself right. But in case that's not what you meant, let's try this another way. Let's imagine a person who gets into competitive practical pistol shooting. Forget IDPA, he's an outright gamer. He's going to shoot USPSA with gamer gear that bears little resemblence to his carry gear. Possessed of a health ego and a competitive instinct, he works to get at least semi-proficient at his game - and, as I pointed out above, that game revolves very heavily around getting multiple hits with as much speed as possible. Let's look specifically at the kinds of things he will be learning, and whether/how those might also yield benefits for his shooting with his carry gear.

• Recoil control. He's going to work on this. He's going to work on getting a firm, high grip. Because his sport sometimes requires it, he'll work on this with his strong hand only, with his weak hand only, and, most often, with two hands. He's going to work on driving the sights back to the center of the target, fast.
  • Does it translate: YES. He may not shoots that are quite as fast with his carry gear as with his gamer gear, but there is nothing listed above that won't help his recoil control even with a pocket pistol.
• Fast target acquisition. He's going to work on this. Sometimes, his sport will require him to start with his back to the targets, and he'll have to snap his eyes to a target as fast as he can. Sometimes, his vision will be obstructed by a wall or door or barrel, and then he will move past it or open it, and then he'll have to quickly find the target and the specific spot on it he wants to hit. Sometimes, there will be multiple targets, and he will have to drive his eyes from one to the next as quickly as he finished engaging the prior target.
  • Does it translate: YES. Learning to quickly drive your vision and focus is a key part of being able to react and perceive accurately, which matters a whole lot in a fight. So does being able to switch targets/focuses quickly if faced with more than one assailant.
• Clearing jams/malfunctions. He's going to work on this, whether he likes it or not. Any competitor will shoot a LOT of rounds, and all guns jam given enough chances, whether due to ammo, magazines, or the gun itself, or even some human error. Because his sport doesn't give re-shoots for competitor equipment failures, he's going to learn to quickly clear jams.
  • Does it translate: YES. Learning to quickly clear a jam is obviously a very useful skill if you ever need to use a gun for SD and it jams.
• Learning to use different types of focus for different shots. He'll probably adopt this, learning that a target focus is faster for very close targets, a front sight focus necessary for distant targets, and that he has an individually-determined break point between the two.
  • Does it translate: YES. Learning how to shoot "through" the sights at close targets is very useful in a close SD fight. As is knowing when a shot is too difficult to make without full use of the sights... and which shots fall into which category for the individual shooter.
• Learning to run a trigger fast without losing aim. You bet he's going to work on this.
  • Does it translate: Mostly. Obviously, a carry gun will often have a "worse" trigger than a gamer gun. But learning to pull straight back while slapping or sweeping the trigger is a valuable skill for shooting quickly and accurately... virtually required. He may not be able to bring all the speed over to the carry gun, but certainly a great deal of it will carry over.
• Developing a good index. He's going to work on being able to look at a target and have the gun show up with the sights aligned.
  • Does it translate: Almost certainly YES. If he uses a gun in competition with a radically different grip angle or sight configuration - not a small difference, a HUGE difference - then it may not translate. But anyone shooting anything remotely similar will have it carry over.
• Fast reloads. He's going to work on this for sure. Speed of completing a reload and getting back to the shooting - and being able to multitask and do this while running or otherwise doing something useful - is pretty well essential in his sport.
  • Does it translate: To some extent. Learning to quickly and accurately get a magazine in the bottom of the gun is obviously a valuable skill, but it's not one that actually gets used much in SD scenarios, and relatively few people carry spare mags on belt pouches (if at all).
• A fast draw. He'll learn this. Since he shoots a timed sport that begins with a beep and the gun most often starts in a holster, he'll work on this.
  • Does it translate: Yes, with the degree of translation being variable. Obviously, the more similar the mode of carry, the more translation there will be. Someone who carries strong hand at 3 o'clock for both gaming and CC will get more benefit than the person who conceals in a shoulder rig or ankle holster. But even with radically different carry styles, the ability to get a great grip without looking, without fail, and without doubt carries over and is valuable... it's only the getting to the gun that really differs.

I could go on, but you get the idea. You may not want to shoot competition for cost reasons, or social anxiety reasons, or cultural reasons, or ego reasons, or interest reasons, or time reasons, or any other number of legitimate reasons. But there are obviously a TON of things to learn in even the most gamer-oriented practical shooting sports that are beneficial to SD/CC type shooting. Just tons. Denying that is silly.

 

[Kleanbore]

Getting multiple hits fast at various distances is exactly the kind of skill that you will develop if you take up one of the practical shooting sports. That's basically the core of the game, so improvement will occur if you are even slightly motivated to do well.

Yes. What is missing is the response to the ambush--the unexpected attack from an unexpected direction--and the need to draw while moving in response to that attack.

 

[ATLDave]

Um, ok, yes that is missing. It's missing in ANY kind of training, unless you pay homeless people to sneak up on you and then allow you to shoot them for practice.

And I did not say that practical pistol shooting provides ALL the skill or knowledge needed. For instance, it doesn't teach you anything about use of lethal force laws. So what? Get that somewhere else.

If you want to get good at making fast, accurate hits, while moving (and YES, there is a lot of drawing and moving at the same time in practical pistol shooting - certainly in USPSA), then go compete.

 

[Jeff White]

Um, ok, yes that is missing. It's missing in ANY kind of training,

It's not missing in force on force training.

 

[ATLDave]

Yes, it is. If you're in force-on-force training (which is surely the gold standard for certain kinds of SD training - this isn't a criticism of it), you KNOW that something is supposed to happen. You KNOW you're going to get jumped. You may not know exactly from where. There may even be doubt as to when. But you know what you're there for.

 

[Jeff White]

If you're paying attention and not walking around in condition white, you know that it's possible any time you are out and about.

You may not be expecting it, but if you're doing it right, you are aware of the possibility any time you are away from your home.

Just like in force on force training.

 

[Kleanbore]

Um, ok, yes that [the response to the ambush--the unexpected attack from an unexpected direction] is missing. It's missing in ANY kind of training, unless you pay homeless people to sneak up on you and then allow you to shoot them for practice.

No.

The best preparation would probably involve a really good simulation facility or FoF training with simunitions.

For training with stationary targets, one can have a number of targets set up within a near-270 degree berm, walk around in the enclosed area, and have an instructor, call out, without warning, something that would give the student an indication of which target represents a threat. Distance and direction will vary.

The advantages include surprise, which is a real-world reality, and eliminating the "seek and engage" mentality that is inherent in some of the shooting sports.

 

[ATLDave]

Yeah, just like in force-on-force training. Except that I've walked around thousands of days and have been ambushed 0% of them. But if I paid for an attended a FOF training session (which I'm sure would be very educational), I would be just as surprised by the inevitable ambush. Totally. It's exactly the same.

But we digress. My point was that if someone wants to get good at landing relatively accurate hits fast, competitive practical shooting is a sure-fire way to greatly increase that skill set and some closely related skills. Won't teach weapons retention or lethal force law or a bunch of other stuff. But that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

[ATLDave]

The advantages include surprise, which is a real-world reality, and eliminating the "seek and engage" mentality that is inherent in some of the shooting sports.

You and Jeff seem to be responding to an argument that I didn't make. I said, if you want to learn to make fast hits at a variety of distances, competitive shooting is a very good way to do it. Probably the best, because the pressure of competition, and the opportunity (and motivation) for tens of thousands of reps is there. That's all. I didn't say that's the only thing people should do. I didn't say it's the only way to acquire that skill set.

 

[Kleanbore]

Except that I've walked around thousands of days and have been ambushed 0% of them.

What does that tell us? I haven't either, but it is that potential situation for which I carry a gun in the first place.

You may not be expecting it, but if you're doing it right, you are aware of the possibility any time you are away from your home.

Absolutely! After took the I. C.E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting (aka Dynamic Focus Shooting course, I realized that the greatest benefit was not in speed of controlled fire (I had already trained in things like El Presidente drills, which I found valuable), but in being better prepared for the unexpected.

I said, if you want to learn to make fast hits at a variety of distances, competitive shooting is a very good way to do it.

I have already agreed with that.

I didn't say that's the only thing people should do

Good.

I didn't say it's the only way to acquire that skill set.

"That skill set" may be developed very well in competitive shooting, but the ability to employ that skill set in the context of a realistic and truly defensive surprise encounter is what needs to be added.

 

[ATLDave]

What does that tell us? I haven't either, but it is that potential situation for which I carry a gun in the first place.

What that tells me is that if you are ambushed in real life, it will feel different than being ambushed in an environment where you paid to be ambushed. That's all.

"That skill set" may be developed very well in competitive shooting, but the ability to employ that skill set in the context of a realistic and truly defensive surprise encounter is what needs to be added.

That sounds reasonable. The pure shooting skills are going to come along further and faster in competitive shooting than any other reasonably available avenue, unless you're active duty military and deployed as an infantryman and actually shoot people in the face as your day-to-day job. Plenty of other stuff to add if you want to be a truly well-rounded and highly-proficient SD practitioner.

 

[Kleanbore]

... if you are ambushed in real life, it will feel different than being ambushed in an environment where you paid to be ambushed.

I'm sure it will, but I dp not see why that would be important. The issue is whether the trained reaction is sufficient.

Fighter pilots train via simulation and flying in realistic air combat training. No pilots have developed their combat flying skills in battle in the last half century. All of the "kills" accomplished in recent years were effected by persons who had trained in the air combat counterparts of simulation and FoF training. I've never asked any of the very few pilots what it "felt" like, but I don't think it matters very much.

 

[Hangingrock]

I could go on, but you get the idea. You may not want to shoot competition for cost reasons, or social anxiety reasons, or cultural reasons, or ego reasons, or interest reasons, or time reasons, or any other number of legitimate reasons. But there are obviously a TON of things to learn in even the most gamer-oriented practical shooting sports that are beneficial to SD/CC type shooting. Just tons. Denying that is silly.

Don't be foolish enough to think that I have not participated in competition or have not been involved in in combat during my military service thus having multiple occasions of facing armed opponents in close quarters contact. The details which I will not go into on a public forum. I've only ever written or talked about one incident that I came to the realization that generations before me did that the handgun is a supplement to a rifle.

Like I said before you have your view point and I have my view point. Thus we disagree and an extended debate would not resolve the issue of differences between us.

 

[ATLDave]

Goodness. Yes, when fighter pilots fly combat air patrol missions over/near enemy territory, they have an expectation of being attacked by surface defenses or enemy aircraft. It has been a long, long, long time since any U.S. aircraft was actually surprised by an enemy aircraft. That has nothing to do with a person in the grocery store parking lot.

But I don't disagree with your larger point. Keep in mind that I was responding to the criticism of practical shooting competitions as lacking "the unexpected attack." No training commonly available provides that. Doesn't mean that training is inadequate, just that this is not a meaningful criticism of gun games.

 

[Kleanbore]

Keep in mind that I was responding to the criticism of practical shooting competitions as lacking "the unexpected attack." No training commonly available provides that.

I don't understand from where that idea came from.. Simulation scenarios may or may not include an attack. In FoF training, the defender may be approached by a "good guy". The instructor in Combat Focus Training has all kinds of options. Police training (now moving toward the use simulators) routinely includes of shoot/no shoot exercises.

To my knowledge, all of the "gun games" involve going after a target or a target for the purpose of shooting.

That most certainly is a "meaningful criticism".

 

[ATLDave]

Zounds, man! If someone goes to a FOF training session, the odds they will be "attacked" are high. So the attack isn't "unexpected." I'm really not staking out radical positions here.

You are correct that most of the gun games don't have a significant shoot/don't shoot decision component (although they generally have lots of things around you are not allowed to shoot, they are generally fairly visually distinct). Again, I'm not saying that gun games address everything. Remember: My core position is that gun games will teach people to make fast, accurate, repeated hits at a variety of distances.

 

[Kleanbore]

If someone goes to a FOF training session, the odds they will be "attacked" are high.

Sure, at some point during the exercises.

So the attack isn't "unexpected."

When it happens and where not being known in advance make it sufficiently "unexpected" for training purposes.

Remember: My core position is that gun games will teach people to make fast, accurate, repeated hits at a variety of distances.

We have agreed with that. I'm pretty sure that my time performing El Presidente drills with one-on-one coaching by several different top gun game competitors gave me a lot of ability in shooting and hitting fast.

 

[ATLDave]

We have agreed with that. I'm pretty sure that my time performing El Presidente drills with one-on-one coaching by several different top gun game competitors gave me a lot of ability in shooting and hitting fast.

Let me be very, very, very clear that nothing I have said is intended to suggest that I know anything about your skill, or the skills of anyone else on this thread, nor to suggest that I have superior skills. How would I even know that? You may well be ten times more proficient than I am at shooting skills. That's entirely possible. None of this discussion has been intended as some kind of personal criticism; it has only been a discussion (from my perspective) about a very efficient and reliable way to acquire certain shooting skills. That's all.

Now, at the risk of confusing the matter: El Pres drills are very efficient at combining a number of basic gun skills into a single drill. There's a reason it's a classic. People who can shoot a good El Pres can usually shoot well at practical/combat distances/targets generally. However, there's a lot of benefit conferred by the much broader set of challenges posed by gun games generally. In El Pres, all the targets are the same difficulty, so you don't have change-ups in shot value. They're fairly closely spaced, so you don't have wide transitions. It's shot static (after the initial turn), so there's no shooting on the move. The targets themselves are static, so there's no learning to shoot a moving target. There's no barrier, so there's no learning to shoot in an awkward position. It's a great, great drill, and there's a lot to be learned from it. There's a lot more to be learned from the full range of gun games than any single drill can encapsulate.

But I have no reason to believe that you, personally, haven't also developed all those skills. I'm just saying that competition is a very good way for people generally do develop them.

 

[strambo]

The expectation of attack is the danger/downside of FoF training. Trainers have to be careful to include no-shoot scenarios and monitor that trainees aren't doing things differently due to it being a FoF event and they expect to get shot at.

A story told at the Simunition instructor course was of a probation/parole team who in training never entered the building. They just shouted commands from outside. Trainers finally asked "Do you never go into houses?" They said, "Sure, all the time." "Then why haven't you gone in today?"

"Because every time we go into to a house with the Simunition, we get all shot up!"

 

[Kleanbore]

People who can shoot a good El Pres can usually shoot well at practical/combat distances/targets generally. However, there's a lot of benefit conferred by the much broader set of challenges posed by gun games generally. In El Pres, all the targets are the same difficulty, so you don't have change-ups in shot value. They're fairly closely spaced, so you don't have wide transitions. It's shot static (after the initial turn), so there's no shooting on the move. The targets themselves are static, so there's no learning to shoot a moving target. There's no barrier, so there's no learning to shoot in an awkward position. It's a great, great drill, and there's a lot to be learned from it. There's a lot more to be learned from the full range of gun games than any single drill can encapsulate.

But all of the "gun games", as valuable as they are , are all about shooting, and they embody a "seek and engage" mentality.

When I head out from lunch at the restaurant and go around to where my car is parked in the back, I am not going for the purpose of shooting at something that I saw when I drove in. I am going to the car. I am not planning to draw, or to shoot anything. But I am vulnerable to attack by anyone who might be behind the dumpster, or waiting just around the back corner of the building. Or by the two seemingly unrelated guys who look like they are walingindependently but who are coordinating an attack. Or to the guy checking his dipstick on the truck that is parked so it is heading out.

Recognizing and reacting to such potential threats is important, and the way in which one will have to react bears little resemblance to going about with the objective of shooting at a series of known targets.

The latest simulation facilities, the Combat Focus Shooting Course, and FoF training can help to prepare one for that,