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One does not shoot at extremely close targets to "work on...accuracy skills".
I have to disagree. The only reason to shoot at any target is to increase your accuracy. It may not be bullseye type accuracy, but any type of shooting where the location of the hits matter is "accurate shooting". Otherwise, take the paper down and shoot blanks like some of the cowboy shooters do.

Point shooting practice to get consistent and fast center of mass hits is "accurate shooting" as much as anything else. You can hang the paper wherever you want, but it really doesn't change what skill is being practiced. The target is just recording where the gun was pointed when you fired it.
 
I have to disagree. The only reason to shoot at any target is to increase your accuracy. It may not be bullseye type accuracy, but any type of shooting where the location of the hits matter is "accurate shooting". Otherwise, take the paper down and shoot blanks like some of the cowboy shooters do.

Point shooting practice to get consistent and fast center of mass hits is "accurate shooting" as much as anything else. You can hang the paper wherever you want, but it really doesn't change what skill is being practiced. The target is just recording where the gun was pointed when you fired it.

If by "accuracy" one means precision, there's a lot more to it than that. There's also speed.

If the target is farther away, precision will be more important. At closer distances, precision is less important.

The distance to the target is not irrelevant to skills development. If one is training for close quarters encounters, one should be training using close range targets, and trying to achieve the right balance of speed and precision. The objective is not to reduce dispersion beyond what is necessary.

Do not think in terms of group size. Think in terms of hitting and not missing, as quickly as possible.

People who have become quite capable in terms of grip, trigger control, and sigh picture are often quite surprised when they are thrown into realistic training scenarios requiring a high rate of fire. It usually takes quite a number of repetitions to be able to transfer the skills and develop new ones,

Also, one really should not train for close encounters by facing a target at which one already knows one intends to shoot.
 
The POST standard for peace officers in Illinois includes no requirement to shoot farther then 15 yards. There is an optional stage at 25 yards for those departments that wish to train to that standard. This is because limited training time and budgets need to be spent on the skills that are most likely to be needed.

A shooter who can consistently shoot a ragged one hole group at 25 yards with his handgun is impressive to watch, but he's using a completely different skill set then the he would use shooting at 3 yards from the draw. It would be great if everyone had the resources to be able to train to do both. But unfortunately no armed government agency and few individuals do. Given unlimited time and money I would say that everyone carrying a gun should be able to shoot that one hole group at 25 yards and shoot a sub 3 second box drill on two opponents at 3 yards from the draw.

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of overlap in the skills required to do both, so we have to train for each task differently.
 
If by "accuracy" one means precision, there's a lot more to it than that. There's also speed.
I think you're making distinctions that don't really exist. Whether we are talking about center hits on an IDPA target at 2 yards or steel targets on a winter biathlon course, time and accuracy restrictions apply to both. There are only a very few types of shooting where you can take all time you need - everything else demands that you make useful hits on the target despite the stress of limited time.

As far as really close targets go, I simply don't agree that there is anything intrinsically different about shooting a 10" plate at 5 yard or a 20" plate at 10 yards. They take and demonstrate exactly the same skill to hit.
 
A shooter who can consistently shoot a ragged one hole group at 25 yards with his handgun is impressive to watch, but he's using a completely different skill set then the he would use shooting at 3 yards from the draw
If they are completely different skills, at what range and time does one stop being useful and the other start?

I see this as a continuum, where the person who can reliably pull the trigger with the pistol steadily directed at the target is performing a variation on the same task whether they are taking careful aim or barely referencing the sights.
 
shoot a sub 3 second box drill on two opponents at 3 yards from the draw.
I am not quibbling with the time element specified but rather you are on a range thus mentally prepared for the exercise of shooting a sub 3Sec box drill. Not on the range, but as an example in day to day surroundings taken by surprise would you not have to factor in reaction and drawing from concealment time elements, thus is sub 3Sec achievable?
 
If they are completely different skills, at what range and time does one stop being useful and the other start?

Shooting from contact distance out to maybe 3 yards you aren't going to be using the sights at all. If you even bring the weapon up to eye level you have probably already lost the fight unless you are the aggressor. In the box drill I used as an example you will fire the first two rounds as the weapon is coming up. It's almost all grip and point shooting up that close if you are going to be fast enough. The box drill I used as an example consists of a hammer to the body of each target followed by an aimed head shot to each target. The first hammer is fired from the retention position, the second hammer is fired as the weapon is coming into the line of sight, as the weapon gets to eye level the head shots are fired.

I see this as a continuum, where the person who can reliably pull the trigger with the pistol steadily directed at the target is performing a variation on the same task whether they are taking careful aim or barely referencing the sights.

In this drill you only reference the sights for two of the six rounds fired. You are correct in that grip and trigger control could be the same. However sights have little impact in that close if you are going to shoot at a realistic speed.

I am not quibbling with the time element specified but rather you are on a range thus mentally prepared for the exercise of shooting a sub 3Sec box drill. Not on the range, but as an example in day to day surroundings taken by surprise would you not have to factor in reaction and drawing from concealment time elements, thus is sub 3Sec achievable?

One has to have some standard to train to. It is difficult to train for the reaction to the threat on most ranges. That part of the skill set is best trained in force on force training. I would say a sub 3 second box drill is possible but that doesn't figure the time to recognize and react to the threat.
 
Shooting from contact distance out to maybe 3 yards you aren't going to be using the sights at all.
And at the next increment you might look only at the front sight, the next you're putting 3 dots close together, and beyond that you're aligning the sharp edges. It isn't either/or.

Also, someone who is practiced shooting a particular gun with sights will develop a natural sense where the gun is pointing, and will learn point shooting much faster than someone learning by trial and error. Anyone who can shoot with sights reasonably rapidly gets sight alignment fast because they point the gun at the target consistently before they even can focus on the sights.

Maybe none of this matters, but I'm convinced that if I had a 1000 rounds to teach someone to shoot their pistol, their performance overall would be superior if they spent the first 500 rounds firing at a small target with sights and the second half shooting at contact distances than the reverse. Precision builds fundamentals that apply to all shooting - the way the gun points in the hand, control of recoil and control of the trigger.
 
I'm convinced that if I had a 1000 rounds to teach someone to shoot their pistol, their performance overall would be superior if they spent the first 500 rounds firing at a small target with sights and the second half shooting at contact distances than the reverse. Precision builds fundamentals that apply to all shooting - the way the gun points in the hand, control of recoil and control of the trigger.

I start teaching the fundamentals at 3 yards. A small target, 5 round groups as tight as they can shoot. When they are shooting a ragged one hole group at 3 yards, move back to 5 and repeat. I have found that I get better results teaching this way then I do starting out at 7, 10 or 15 yards and working in. It's easier for the student to see the error up close and correct and the fact they aren't throwing rounds all over the place helps build confidence and keeps them from getting frustrated and discouraged.

I don't teach anything more advanced, shooting from retention, shooting from the draw or multiple targets or pick up the speed until they are grounded in the fundamentals. It seldom takes more then 150 rounds to have someone shooting well enough to move on to more advanced drills.

I encourage my students to start their practice sessions the same way. It takes many thousand correct repetitions to become unconsciously competent. You can throw away the last sessions hard work if you think you're a master the next time you hit the range and start blasting away.

I try to have run a balanced program that allows the student to feel he is advancing his skills continually. I think most students who wanted to learn defensive use of the handgun would get bored with 500 rounds of bulls eye slow fire. That's why I start with the fundamentals, move to something a bit more advanced as soon as the student is shooting good enough to move on, then start the next session with the fundamentals again. Boredom and fatigue can really inhibit learning.
 
The problem, as it relates to gunfighting, is that raw marksmanship is only the most basic foundation (you can't possibly hit under stress, unless it's luck, if you can't hit under no stress-demonstrating you have the hand-eye coordination to place a bullet). At the fundamental level, yes; hitting a small target far away is the same skill as hitting a target closer and faster. Trigger press w/o disturbing the gun, sight alignment (or body alignment), some sort of time constraint, some sort of acceptable group size.

That is apples to apples, range-target marksmanship. The problem is that hit rates in gunfights bear little to no correlation to the range. The same person who as an example can shoot an 8" group at 25 yds then only hits an entire person 1 out of 3 times in a 3yd gunfight. The answer is not to work with them until they can shoot a 4" group at 25 yds, improving their poor marksmanship. Heck, put the 8" @ 25yd group person on the 3yd line and tell them to dump the magazine as fast as they can, I bet they keep 'em all on the paper, probably in 6-8". So, why did they only hit the entire person one out of three? Must be something missing outside of raw marksmanship, since they have demonstrated better marksmanship repeatedly...

If I had 1000rds to teach someone how to shoot their pistol, 1st I'd redefine the goal. My goal; 1000rds to teach them how to survive a gunfight. I'd teach them how to shoot their pistol mainly via dry-fire. Confirm and refine with up to 500rds on the range. Once we've established they have the raw marskmanship skill to get the hits required, I'd use the remaining 500 working on progressively more stressful drills primarily at close range (some from cover and also at extended ranges). I'd also trade 200 of the live rounds for 100 Simunition FX for FoF, 50 blanks safe at contact range for extreme CQC striking/shooting, and 50 frangibles for a shoot house. The high-stress drills and FoF training is what will help enable them to tap into more of their raw marksmanship ability under stress. It is there, but hard to access when the first time you try to shoot a moving person who is shooting back, is the real thing. (Not the marksmanship problem of it, we can move while shooting moving targets at a range, the stress of it)

Progressively more realistic and stressful training is what helps bridge the gap between square range performance and combat performance. The first few times you suck. Next few get better. So much so, that our best trained Tier 1 units have little degredation between their square range and combat performance.

The guy who killed Bin Laden scored two rapid head shots in combat at night against a moving target surrounded by no-shoot targets. If all he did was train on static targets at a range, with no high stress FoF or shoot houses etc, forget it! It wouldn't matter what groups he shot prior and how far. He also had so much combat experience he stopped even getting adrenaline dumps in firefights. The goal of training is to simulate that as close as possible since most of us will thankfully never get enough real combat to be good at it.
 
The laws concerning concealed carry are for personal protection. How would the laws treat the shooting of an adversary at an escapable distance? Not being an LEO and firing on someone not imposing a direct threat to you? Has there ever been a shooting where a civilian took out a felon at more than say 7 yards?
 
Jeff and Strambo you guys are the type of folks I wish I could train with.

I will heed the advice on close shooting in this thread and start incorporating it in my practice.

It's ironic this discussion has taken the turn it has. I was at the range a couple of weeks ago and after shooting at 25-35ft, brought a few targets in to 15ft. My first couple of shots didn't even hit the plates. I also found there to be a significant difference in shooting at one target at distance and multiple targets up close.

How do you guys feel about the 5 in 5 at 5 drill I read about from Ayoob in a recent article?
 
The laws concerning concealed carry are for personal protection. How would the laws treat the shooting of an adversary at an escapable distance? Not being an LEO and firing on someone not imposing a direct threat to you? Has there ever been a shooting where a civilian took out a felon at more than say 7 yards?

Yes, a civilian in an RV park took out a scumbag at I believe 60-70yds with a revolver. He was shooting at a cop. Longest civilian shot I've heard of, I looked for a link to the story but couldn't find it.

Anyway, if you can articulate an imminent deadly threat to yourself or an innocent 3rd party, distance don't matter.

Contemporary example would be what RX97G was talking about, active shooter in an outdoor setting. You may be able to escape, but others can't, cleared hot to engage if you think you can, at least legally (insert disclaimer, check your local laws, consult attny, YMMV...;)).
 
Yes I can not find the link you mention? I would be most interested in reading about that incident. I checked the NRA Armed Citizen as well, nothing? If you find that please post. Thx.
 
11-28-16 Tacticalprofessor (Claude Werner) Subject Title: How Many Rounds To Carry. To me it was a good read concerning The NRA publications The Armed Citizen column as an information source that merits a more in-depth study. That said he also stated that a valid criticism would be The NRA Cherry Picking News Sources That Depicted Successful Outcomes. It would be at least to me, interesting to know more in-depth information in regards to the incidents such as the competency/level of training if any, situational circumstance and etcetera - etcetera. The predominate trait seems to be the willingness to be combative in defense of themselves and others.
 
11-28-16 Tacticalprofessor (Claude Werner) Subject Title: How Many Rounds To Carry. To me it was a good read concerning The NRA publications The Armed Citizen column as an information source that merits a more in-depth study. That said he also stated that a valid criticism would be The NRA Cherry Picking News Sources That Depicted Successful Outcomes. It would be at least to me, interesting to know more in-depth information in regards to the incidents such as the competency/level of training if any, situational circumstance and etcetera - etcetera. The predominate trait seems to be the willingness to be combative in defense of themselves and others.

What you bolded is important. Though the Armed Citizen column is an excellent source of information, it has by very nature a 100% positive outcome bias. I brought that up once in a discussion about how training isn't important because the odds are great the criminal will just run or it can be solved by an untrained citizen with minimal shots fired. Armed Citizen reports were offered up as support. I opined that they only report success, we don't know how many times it doesn't work out for the citizen. They are just known as "victims" and get lost in the overall violent crime statistics.
 
The laws concerning concealed carry are for personal protection. How would the laws treat the shooting of an adversary at an escapable distance? Not being an LEO and firing on someone not imposing a direct threat to you? Has there ever been a shooting where a civilian took out a felon at more than say 7 yards?
Because
it may be 30 rows back in a crowded theater, on a hiking trail or in a long hallway at work. Many mass shooting incidents are in crowded open places where the assailant is using a rifle and the only real protection you have is to be proactive before the killer's muzzle swings your way.
or
http://www.thegunzone.com/well-enough.html
 
Do not think in terms of group size. Think in terms of hitting and not missing, as quickly as possible.

People who have become quite capable in terms of grip, trigger control, and sigh picture are often quite surprised when they are thrown into realistic training scenarios requiring a high rate of fire. It usually takes quite a number of repetitions to be able to transfer the skills and develop new ones,

Also, one really should not train for close encounters by facing a target at which one already knows one intends to shoot.

Far too many people don't practice the as quickly as possible aspect of shooting. At seven feet it takes very little skill to put a bullet somewhere on a human size target where it will do significant damage. This means speed becomes vastly more important because you need to be the first one scoring hits. The bad guy just has to be lucky. Don't give him time to be lucky.

The good thing is that fast shooters are made at home without ever spending a dime. Ten thousand draw, sight alignment, and dry fires, with occasional live fire to tie it all together will do wonders.
 
Far too many people don't practice the as quickly as possible aspect of shooting
I remember an instructor that basically said you can't miss fast enough. His verbiage was basically the same message worded slightly differently laced with profanity.
 
Far too many people don't practice the as quickly as possible aspect of shooting. At seven feet it takes very little skill to put a bullet somewhere on a human size target where it will do significant damage. This means speed becomes vastly more important because you need to be the first one scoring hits. The bad guy just has to be lucky. Don't give him time to be lucky.

The good thing is that fast shooters are made at home without ever spending a dime. Ten thousand draw, sight alignment, and dry fires, with occasional live fire to tie it all together will do wonders.
By "as quickly as possible", I was not referring to the time between deciding to draw and hitting an area about the size of the upper chest with the first shot--though that is very important.

I was referring to the time it take to put several shots into that area. If the target is moving at more than fifteen feet per second, split times of two tenths of a second would involve movement of about three feet between hits.

That has two aspects of importance: the likelihood of hitting something critical inside the body for a timely physical stop, and the increased threat posed by an attacker who has moved three feet closer.

That is a skill addressed in most good with high performance defensive pistol training courses; beginners invariably show a very great need for improvement at the outset; and one cannot learn or practice that at home.
 
Getting multiple hits fast at various distances is exactly the kind of skill that you will develop if you take up one of the practical shooting sports. That's basically the core of the game, so improvement will occur if you are even slightly motivated to do well.
 
Getting multiple hits fast at various distances is exactly the kind of skill that you will develop if you take up one of the practical shooting sports
Not to be nettlesome and or argumentative but in practical shooting sports are you using the weapon that you would conceal carry, ammunition type you would utilize in self defensive applications and drawing from a concealed holster that you use for defensive carry. I realize you are getting trigger time in competition but are you utilizing competition equipment as opposed to self defense/concealed carry equipment?
 
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