Defensive Rifle

[rob_s]

http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

 

[gotime242]

I think someone said this in another thread somewhere:

Pistol to defend your persons.
Shotgun to defend your home.
Rifle to defend your property.

 

[expvideo]

I have always had the thinking that anyone further from me than a distance that a handgun could reach was of no danger to me and should never be shot at but i am young sand i hear people talk about rifles fitting a defensive need although i dont see it,could you give me scenarios where CITIZENS NOT POLICE would need a rifle for a defensive need??

I am certain there are these scenarios and i am overlooking


Also what caliber rifle is idea for a defensive need?

Thanks

Sometimes in life you end up in situations where the police are not there and won't be there until after an event has taken place. It is how you act and what you can do that may make the difference in these situations. Remember that the police are a great convenience, but they can't be everywhere at once and very few violent acts are going to last long enough for the police to get there. I can give you an example from a personal experience. I don't really like talking about this, but I will since you want a good example.

I was working at a night club in Seattle. I wasn't a bouncer, btw. I was in the parking lot, having a smoke when I saw everyone in the lot running toward the building. It was a really spooky sight. Walking behind the fleeing crowd was a young man dressed in gangster attire with a Mac-11. The crowd couldn't go any farther and ended up being a group of 30+ people gathered together at the front of the building. The man pointed the machinepistol at the crowd and started speaking angrily at them. Apparently there were some Bloods in the crowd and this man was a Cryp(sp?).

I saw the man crossing the parking lot, so I took cover next to a minivan and drew my Sig P220 .45acp. The axel of the minivan was between me and the shooter, and I could see him over the hood of the car. He was about 20 yards away. He didn't see me, and I had the drop on him. However, there were several factors that kept me from taking the shot. First of all, there was an SUV full of people behind me that would most likely be killed if I got into a fire fight with the shooter. Second, I wasn't confident with my weapon being able to get the immediate stopping shot that I would need to get at that range. If I didn't neutralize the shooter with one shot, he could open up on the crowd or the SUV behind me. Thirdly, the shooter had 5 friends behind him, with good cover. If they were armed too, I would have been in a really bad situation, since I only had 7+1 in the gun and 7 more in my spare mag. 15 rounds goes by fast. There were a million other things going through my head, like the busy street behind the shooter, but the above three reasons were the main ones.

Typing this right now is making me very uncomfortable. This is a really tough memory for me to deal with, because every time I replay this scenario in my head, I try to think what I could have done differently, or what would have happened if he had started shooting. How would I have dealt with knowing that people died that wouldn't have if I had acted? Would I have gotten killed in a shootout? Would I have gotten the people in the SUV killed? It haunts me to this day and I shivver just thinking about it.

Anyway, the man decided not to shoot anyone and ran away. I am glad that it turned out that way, naturally, but it's haunting to think what would have happened if he didn't. I know for a fact that if I had a rifle in my car at the time, this would have ended much worse for the shooter. This is the kind of situation where a rifle in your car can mean the difference between the life or death of innocent people. I'm not a cop and I don't try to pretend to be one, but I'll do what I can to try to protect the people around me. Having a rifle of any caliber is good planning. Hopefully you will never need it and always feel silly for having it. But if you do need it, you will really need it. This isn't a story from a movie or one of Jack Bauer's adventures. This is a story of a real life event that I witnessed, and I'm just a normal guy. You could very well witness the same kind of thing, and when you do you will truely understand the value of a rifle. Hopefully you will have one.

I hope that this story helps to answer your question. I really don't like talking about this because it stirs up those old feelings and fears, but it's worth it if it convinces you of the value of having the right tools to protect yourself.

 

[briang2ad]

Even though

I own and few semi-autos which fire assault rifle cartridges, I think many of US make too much of 'firepower', etc. A Mauser, or Enfield would be quite effective, cheap to shoot, etc. and put someone DOWN when hit. In a carbine length, it would be handy. People watch movies and see all kinds of BAD TTP. One well aimed shot is worth MUCH - especially if you really don't have 180 rounds to 'waste'. In the Army, we have long supply lines FULL of ammo, and people generally trained in assaults with automatic fire. Most people given semi-auto will simply waste shots.

 

[possum]

handguns suck, if i have a choice of using a rifle or a handgun i am gonna take the rifle 99.9% of the situations that i could think of. a rifle can be used at 0yds, to one end of your house to the other, and everything in between.

if you need us to tell you why you need one then you probally don't ned one.

 

[taprackbang]

Rifles have more stopping power and are easier to fire accurately.

Not only more accurately, but more accurately in a high stress situation with a bad guy.

 

[WardenWolf]

I would disagree that a long gun is more difficult to take away. Then again, I have some rudimentary martial arts skills. Once you're within the physical length of the long gun, it's pretty much impossible for someone to bring it to bear on you. It is much easier for a bad guy to gain control of the muzzle of a long gun, whereas with a pistol you can shield with your offhand while holding your gun hand back and return fire from the hip point-blank. Tactical pistol drills such as this can save your life. The drills I do focus on accurately bringing the pistol to bear with either hand from a wide variety of shooting positions. Once you've learned how to instinctively point your gun, you can fire from many positions that would generally be considered non-optimal. Keep in mind that these positions may not be pleasant or practical for everyday shooting, but its who shoots first and best that counts in an emergency.

To gain control of a long gun: deflect the muzzle to the side with a quick motion of your arm and grab it with one hand, step in, strike his face with your elbow (twice for good measure). Then rapidly grip the gun with your striking hand and pull it away while he is still stunned. Of course, this is a hypothetical situation. You have to avoid getting shot to do it. But if you CAN get to that range, the length of the gun will generate leverage that will work against the wielder. It is still much easier to gain a grip on a long gun than a handgun. If you DO manage the deflect a handgun, it may be very difficult to gain a hold on it. But the drill works much the same:

Deflect to the side, grab his wrist with your other hand while stepping in. Then with the hand you used to deflect, grab the gun firmly about the slide. Now, as before, strike with your elbow, and pull the gun away. Alternatively: strike with our elbow, then strike his wrist, then pull the gun away. Striking the wrist before the joint, at the point where the blood vessels crisscross, will cause the opponent's grip to loosen momentarily.

How to avoid these situations:

With a long gun: keep your distance and quickly bring the muzzle up as you turn corners once verifying the corner itself is clear. The firearm should snap to position. Decide in your mind that if the bad guy gets within a certain distance you WILL fire.

With a handgun: be prepared to pull your gun back and use your opposite arm to block your opponent. This has the effect of giving you a point-blank shot into their abdomen. It is MUCH easier to retain control of a pistol than a rifle if the enemy gets the drop on you.

 

[ugaarguy]

I would disagree that a long gun is more difficult to take away. Then again, I have some rudimentary martial arts skills. Once you're within the physical length of the long gun, it's pretty much impossible for someone to bring it to bear on you. It is much easier for a bad guy to gain control of the muzzle of a long gun,

You don't have to shoot someone to be effective with a long gun. Thrusts and strokes can really hurt an opponent and create space.

The thing about using a rifle for HD is that your bullet might go right through the bad guy and hit your neighbor half a mile down the road. Even shotgun slugs have this problem. IMO the thing to have is a 12 ga. pump with buckshot loads.

You need to read "Overpenetration" and rifle rounds--the myth that won't die

 

[bukijin]

...if someone is shooting at you with a rifle....

 

[1911 guy]

I'm a fan of handguns, when they are properly applied. With a drawer full of autoloading pistols, my go-to HD gun is a 16" AR with 45gr jhp.

Overpenetration is more likely with handgun rounds, rifle velocity tends to upset bullets and cause fragmentation. Handguns, not so much. Therein lies a major reaon many police departments are going to 5.56 carbines and subguns over the 9mm's.

Rifles are definately easier to bring to bear in a confrontation. They are excellent impact weapons as well as profectile weapons. Heck, I can even put a pig sticker on ine if the mutant ninja zombie bears come to my house.

As for ending a fight, a rifle gets my vote every time. "powerfull" handguns pale in comparison to even "lightweight" rifles.

12ga gets a close second in my book, my dearly beloved 1911 platform coming in dead last if I've got my druthers.

 

[dm]

how many here have actually pulled out a rifle with the intent to use it in a self-defence situation.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Probably a little more than those who have pulled out a shotgun with the intent to use it.(There are some former and active soldiers on the forum.)

 

[dm]

was thinking of civil self-defense rather than military experiences

 

[emilianoksa]

From what I've read, and as Water Man has already said, a lever action carbine in 30.30, or even pistol calibre, is often recommended.

I understand the courts tend to look more kindly on the use of a classic, widely owned, American hunting rifle than a military style weapon.

And you'd probably never need to pull the trigger.

 

[oldgold]

I live way out in the country. My house sets just off the road and can be seen from 400 yards down the road form either direction. One day I was coming home and when I got with in sight of the house there set in my drive way a car I didn't recognize.

I realized how foolish the little .380 felt if these were bad guys. I now carry in the car an FR-8 .

The car was a friend who had just bought it.

how many here have actually pulled out a rifle with the intent to use it in a self-defense situation

I've resemble that remark. Another story, for some other time.

 

[FunkyD]

My preferences would be a short barreled 12-gauge first, because a regular shell of 00 buck contains 9 .33 cal projectiles! Even an M16 cannot throw that much resistance as a bad guy.

An AR or AK would be 2nd.

My trusty xD would be 3rd. However, due to kids in the house, this is what I am using now.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Positive hits are essential for SD.

While you should actually try to hit the intruder, I don't think anyone would want to stick around when they are getting shot at.

 

[RP88]

With handguns, there have been enough reports about people getting hit multiple times and still fleeing or retaliating, or even taking the gun away and using it against the victim, that have made alot of people decide that some sort of rifle or shotgun is a better choice.

I however prefer the 12 ga. shotgun. The rifle outshines and can be used for every role the shotgun is (or isnt) used for and then some, plus it's more manageable and quicker to follow up with, but the close range power of a shotgun is the ultimate threat-ender. Get hit by one once at close range, regardless of where you're hit, and it's all over.

also, the long gun is harder to take away. With a hand gun, all one has to do is grab a wrist or finger and twist and pry until you lose grip. With a long gun, there is more to hold onto, and with both hands. sure, the long gun is easier to take control of, but I'd rather get into a wrestling match than I would have my hand mangled while I look down the barrel of my own gun.

But, if you have the slightest idea of what you're doing, chances are you'll get the jump on the bad guy and be in the advantageous position and not the other way around.

 

[Loomis]

A shotgun is the best home defense weapon ever invented. But you can't walk around carrying a shotgun all the time. So you have to compromise. Something smaller and handier to put in your pocket...even though you are sacrificing power.

As for rifles, my opinion is that the closer it is to a shotgun, the better it is for home defense. That means huge calibers.

450 marlin
45-70 government
444 marlin
458 winchester

The problem with these is they are all going to be in lever action rifles. semi auto with high capacity mags is better for self defense.

I would suggest that you take a real hard look at a saiga 12 for an alternative to a pistol for home defense.

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga12k.shtml

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga12c_exp01.shtml

 

[ugaarguy]

I read stories in the local newspapers nearly every year of bullets hitting houses at long distances during deer season. The idea that it's a myth that a bullet can't travel a long distance and hit someone else in another house in a residential area is just wrong.

If you'd bothered to the read the thread and links within you'd have seen that there are additional factors, such as bullet construction, which also play a role. The fact is that there are many widely available defensive rifle loadings which are far less likely to over penetrate than most pistol and shotgun defensive loadings. There's plenty more info in the reading library here, on m4carbine.net, on ar15.com, and elsewhere on the web.

 

[1911 guy]

Ditto the above post. Also, note in my earlier post that I use a .223 loaded with 45gr JHP at a little under 3,000 fps. I want fragmentation and lots of it, either in the BG or my wall.

Also, rifle bullets fired from long distances away have lost a good amount of their velocity, traveling at near or sometimes below pistol speeds. Hence, no bullet upset and fragmentation.

Deliberately choosing a rifle to use in home defense is entirely different than plinking at the housing development two miles away.

 

[rob_s]

Every year in my home area in Kentucky during deer season where they can use HP rifles someone's house catches a bullet and it penetrates enough to kill someone if they happen to be standing in the wrong spot. And these bullets are flying in from miles away at times. Yeah it's a "myth" that rifle bullets carry a long way. Sure it is. I know people who won't leave their houses during gun season for fear of catching a stray.

These two statements combined make no sense. You understand that, right? If the bullet is just going to come flying into my house through a wall and kill me, why would I stay in the house?

People keep their livestock in barns not because they worry about them being mistaken for deer (which they are sometimes) but because there are stray bullets flying around.

This similarly makes little sense. Are barns better constructed than houses? Do they have some bullet-stopping technology built into the walls?

The reports I've seen say that only a small percentage of bullets fired actually hit their mark in a combat type situation.

Can you link to these reports? I'd like to read them.

I know the army has been famous for filling the air with lead but the number of shells fired compared to the number of enemy soldiers shot is staggering. Ask any soldier on this board or any other board.

I am not a soldier. Similarly if you ask any of those same soldiers how many of their fellow soldiers are actually marksmen you'll find the answer to be "not many". The rules of engagement for a Marine standing in a mud hut in Iraq are much different than those for me standing in my living room at 3 AM.

I read stories in the local newspapers nearly every year of bullets hitting houses at long distances during deer season. The idea that it's a myth that a bullet can't travel a long distance and hit someone else in another house in a residential area is just wrong.

I think you're missing the point.

Comparing a 7mm mag that some toothless-wonder shoots at a deer, and misses, and having that round eventually impact a house somewhere is not the same thing as someone standing in their own hallway and shooting a crackhead 4 times in the chest and having the rounds over-penetrate and then go through the wall of the house, through the wall of another house, and kill a neighbor.

 

[expvideo]

how many here have actually pulled out a rifle with the intent to use it in a self-defence situation.

If you are looking for an example of why someone would use a rifle for self defense, read my story toward the top of this page. I was in a situation that I would have used a rifle if I had one.

 

[mljdeckard]

Rifle rounds may overpenetrate. Pistol rounds may overpenetrate. ALL ROUNDS MAY MISS. This doesn't deter us from using guns defensively in the first place. This only means we have to learn to use them correctly. Pistol rounds are inadequate for self-defense. The rifle or shotgun must be the focus of your plan, even if in real life you don't ultimately have time to get to it.