Does a .45 really need to expand?

[Lovesbeer99]

Given all the expanding bullets designs, does a 45 really need to expand to be affective. Seriously, the 45acp 230gr ball was/is considered a manstopper, but it's need designed to expand.

So a .45 should just be enough. Cast, FMJ, whatever right?

 

[RP88]

well, then judging by how good 9mm ball worked up until the stories of people deflecting them with their eyelashes popped up, does any bullet need to expand?

No. It just helps, and sometimes it helps alot.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

"just enough" isn't good enough..

If it expands, you've got a whale of a load. If it fails to expand, better hope you had good shot placement and hit a vital organ..

Why settle for FMJ when advanced hollowpoint bullet designs will improve your odds of survival?? Even if the hollowpoint cavity clogs, you STILL have a 230gr FMJ, so what's the point of using FMJ? [and don't say reliability, 'cause if your pistol won't feed JHP ammo, you have reliability issues] R-P Golden Saber has a feed profile that will function in nearly any handgun that'll feed FMJ

 

[calaverasslim]

I keep hoping that Hornady comes out with the 45acp in their new "Critical Defense" load. That would solve all the discussion.

 

[30mag]

I think you would want every advantage you could have in an SD situation.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

A .45 may make a bigger hole, but one that expands makes a still bigger hole. I want all the advantages I can get.

 

[AK-47Ghost]

.45 FMJ tends to put you down right now-can't say the same about 9mm...

 

[C-grunt]

Except for the kid in Scottsdale who was able to stab his killing spree maniac father to death after taking several 45 slugs to the body.http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/162461.php

All handguns suck, especially in FMJ. One of my partners has been in two shootings with his .45 and both guys lived. I know more than one officer who has shot a suspect (our standard load is a 180 grn .40 HST with .230 grn .45s optional) who fell to the ground , grasped the wound and asked "why did you shoot me?".

In my experience caliber doesnt really matter, within reason (no .22 short). Ive seen plenty of people in Iraq shot DRT by the Iraqi Police using 9mm FMJ.

FMJ tends to have a fairly rounded profile, especially with the fat .45. As it passes through the target, flesh being naturally stretchy will bend some around the edges of the bullet. Thats why bullet wounds are usually smaller than the caliber. Now a HP has sharper edges that will cut and destroy flesh rather than moving it aside. Thats why handgun hunters will either use a good HP or a design with an abrupt sharp edge.

 

[Max]

"does a 45 really need to expand to be affective."

NO.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

C-Grunt - just out of curiosity - those 2 people that your partner shot who didn't die, did they need to die? I'm not making light of this, I just thought that the goal was to stop the threat, live or die. When these guys were shot did they stop? That was the point of my original question.

A wound channel may be closed up by vacuum and a bigger wound causes more damage and therefore a better chance to stop the threat. But as large and heavy as a 45 is, can you still rely on it even though it's not a HP? I wouldn't trust a 9mm FMJ but I probably would a 45 FMJ.

Anyone else?

 

[crushbup]

No bullet needs to expand to be effective, but it'll give you an edge you may need. I wouldn't feel undergunned with .45 hardball, nor would I with a NATO load of 9mm. However, I would carry the most effective hollowpoint I can so as to potentially have a more effective bullet. If hollowpoints don't expand, they are no worse than hardball, but they have a potential to be far better.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

According to what I've read, a .45 FMJ might be slightly better or lsightly worse than a 9mm hollowpoint, and with FMJ you risk hurting innocent bystanders. What good reason is there not to use hollowpoints (In calibers 9mm and better)? If it's reliability, then get a reliable firearm.

 

[chupacabrah]

for my personal carry, I won't carry anything EXCEPT JHPs (or LSWC).

FMJ's are substandard...period.


However the answer to the question...is NO. 9mm doesn't need to expand either though (or .380, or .25) ....if you have your shot placement down right

 

[moooose102]

only when it hits flesh! the advantage with an expanding round is many. it helps to transfer energy, it creates a larger wound channel, which destroys more tissue, which in effect helps transfer hydraulic shock to the central nervous system. all of these help with the "one shot stop" we all hear about and love. now, if the 45 acp was only going another 300 fps faster! personal defense rounds, except for the very weak, should always be jhp's IMO. in my 380, i alternate, jhp,fmj,jhp,fmj, etc. it is on the weak side, and i doubt it would make 1 shot stops the majority of the time. but, i can carry the thing in my bathing suit. so it is always with me. anytime i can, i also carry my 45.

 

[Deanimator]

1. A .45 will always be at least .45, expanded or not.
2. It doesn't need to expand to be effective. It really helps for it to expand to keep it in the target. I don't carry .45 JHPs because they're more "effective". I carry them because they're more likely to stay in the target. There's no such thing as a "justified accidental shooting". I'm not at all worried about justifying shooting an armed robber. I CAN'T justify shooting the toddler who's standing behind him when I get a through and through.

 

[C-grunt]

C-Grunt - just out of curiosity - those 2 people that your partner shot who didn't die, did they need to die? I'm not making light of this, I just thought that the goal was to stop the threat, live or die. When these guys were shot did they stop? That was the point of my original question.

No they didnt have to die, and they did end up stopping after the 4th or 5th round each. One was trying the suicide by cop thing with a handgun and the other was trying to run him and his partner over with a car.

I was trying to convey that even the fabled .45 is nothing special. It is a good pistol round but its still just a pistol round. Both of the shootings, he had decent shot placement and a head shot in each.

No round needs to expand to kill you. A .35 caliber hole through your heart is just as deadly as a .45 caliber hole.

 

[rduckwor]

A properly expanding hollow point will "dump" more kinetic energy from the bullet into tissue faster and more effectively leading to more "impact" effect. In essence, the expanding bullet slows down more rapidly and thus transfers energy more rapidly into whatever it hits.

Also, it goes without saying that there is less chance of overpenetration with a properly expanded HP. Ball ammo tends to separate tissue as it move thru it and will retain energy for a longer period unless it hits something solid like bone.

RMD

 

[ArmedBear]

A properly expanding hollow point will "dump" more kinetic energy from the bullet into tissue faster and more effectively leading to more "impact" effect.

Exactly.

The "bigger hole" isn't the reason for the expanding bullet. If you want a nice big hole, use heavy LSWCs. That's what you'd use for hunting or large predator defense, where you want a big, deep hole.

Expanding HP rounds are designed to transfer energy, to be the best "stoppers."

 

[edrice]

A properly expanding hollow point will "dump" more kinetic energy from the bullet into tissue faster and more effectively leading to more "impact" effect. In essence, the expanding bullet slows down more rapidly and thus transfers energy more rapidly into whatever it hits.

I've read and heard this for many years but still don't quite buy into it.

The amount of energy it takes to recoil a pistol backward and upward a few inches (if that) is miniscule and it's that very same energy that's behind the projectile. The only reason a projectile penetrates with such little energy is because the projectile is so relatively puny and narrow in diameter. It's easy to drive a nail into wood with a hammer blow, but the same hammer blow hitting the wood and not the nail leaves only a shallow dent because the enregy is more spread out.

Even if all the energy is dumped, I just don't see where it's very much energy that's really being transferred just because it stopped without exiting. It's miniscule. I think we've seen too many Hollywood movies of people flying backwards after being shot.

Just my 2 cents. I've never really heard a convincing argument to the contrary.

Ed

 

[gglass]

Unless an HST is damaged by a very hard obstruction like a brick wall, this is how it will look. The .45 caliber HST will almost always expand to 1". I've shot enough of them to have a MAJOR appreciation for how large this round becomes.

 

[Walkalong]

None of the 230 Gr Ball ammo rounds seemed to need to during actual war.

 

[makarovnik]

Not really but it would probably work better if it did.

 

[5knives]

FWIW and IMHO ...

Nope, works just fine!

Same as it has for a hundred years or so, performs just like it was designed to!

Been happy with that combo (1911 and 230 gr. fmj) for a bit over 52 years myself. Can't think of any reason to change now.

Magazine writers and adds haven't changed my mind yet, probably never will!

As always, JMHO, OMMV

Regards,

 

[Old Fuff]

Seriously, the 45acp 230gr ball was/is considered a manstopper, but it's need designed to expand.

Not really, Its pretty well expanded when it starts out. But it depends on if the user can shoot straight. The biggest and meanest of bullets won't do much good unless it is directed to the right place.

 

[Kind of Blued]

I really don't see the point of this thread.

The answer is "No", but expansion is a good thing for self-defense, and good things are, by definition, desirable.

If I could, I'd shoot 6.00 caliber projectiles. As in a half foot wide, and I'd still want them to expand.